Perhaps further than you thought. A new study suggests that the distance people will walk to transit (generally assumed to be 1/4 mile or so) may be less a function of distance than of the obstacles they find along the way.
Major findings:
- Pedestrians walk farther to access light rail stations than commonly assumed, with a mean distance of about a half-mile rather than the prevailing notion of a quarter to a third of a mile.
- Pedestrians say that their primary concern in choosing a route is minimizing time and distance.
- Secondary factors influencing route choice are safety and, to a lesser extent, attractiveness of the route, sidewalk quality, and the absence of long waits at traffic lights.
- Pedestrians vary considerably in how accurately they estimate the distance of their walks.
Hat tip to Bob Richardson for the pointer to the study.
44 responses to “How Far Will You Walk to Transit?”
Walking may, or may not be a big factor in transportation services, but when door-to-store services ever get approved many more will use transit.
MHW
Chris –
Is there a link to the study? Was it a study of all pedestrian trips or pedestrian to transit?
when door-to-store services ever get approved many more will use transit.
Isn’t that the service cabs provide? The problem is that its expensive. I believe Trimet did an experiment in Cedar Hills (or was it Cedar Mill) with a door-to-transit shuttle. It don’t think it really paid off with a dramatic increase in transit use. Of course, they didn’t provide transit to door service on the other end of those trips either.
I think we need to be cautious about projecting the attitudes of people who do use transit onto those who might use transit. The barriers that actually prevent people from using transit may be different than those considered by people who do use it. A person who doesn’t want to walk to the bus may not be willing to walk from the bus either. Its walking at all that is the barrier.
Unfortunately, I manged to lose the link. I hope Bob will chime in with it.
I’m a little disorganized while traveling :-)
When I was living/working in Beaverton after Westside MAX opened, I walked 1/2 (actually .52 mile) from the Beaverton Creek station to the front door of my building. And that is in addition to the .15 miles from my home to my bus stop.
Today my bus stop to work is at the front door of my building but to leave work it’s a 1/5th mile of a walk to Broadway. That is in addition to the .15 miles to my bus stop (to work, .19 from work).
Ross: The Cedar Mill Shuttle is still in operation:
http://www.trimet.org/schedules/cmshuttle.htm
It was actually a success; however the “trial” was in having a taxi company offer the service (Sassy’s Cab). After the three year trial period, TriMet agreed to put it to the union drivers, at which time the cost of operation skyrocketed. So now the shuttle is offered during weekday rush hours only; whereas the taxi ran 7 days a week throughout the day.
http://waddle.uoregon.edu/?id=700
Here is a link to the press release from the University of Oregon about the study and the award it received.
Thanks for posting the link Aylene — the one I had was to an article which was basically a rehash of the original press release.
The professor involved has posted a number of studies which look at walkability, schools, and transit oriented development — worth a look:
http://www.uoregon.edu/~schlossb/research.htm
– Bob R.
Personally, I am impacted more by service frequency than I am walking distance. I will walk a long distance to transit – if I can get on something and go when I get there.
Like walking to a Max stop between Beaverton TC and Gateway during peak hours. There are so many trains you can walk up and get on a train.
Or in SE Portland on busy bus avenues, like say Powell and Milwaukie – there are so many bus lines that go through there, you can walk up and get a bus within minutes. And if you miss one, there is another you can probably catch (depending on destination of course). And a few of them are frequent service…
But a bus line in Lake Oswego that only runs once an hour and has random 1.5 hour gaps (38) is not worthy of walking to. Because odds are – with my luck – I will be 1/2 a block away and the bus will drive by, and then I will be stuck with no options for an hour.
If I am going to commit to walk a distance to the transit, I need the transit to be there and be usable…
Gee, this reminds me of that catch-all phrase from elementary school:
“NO DUH”
Has anyone in the USA ever walked more than three miles at a time? At least a couple times a week?
Spend a year living in downtown Portland, and you’ll often find yourself walking from one side of downtown to the other when it’s not raining too much outside because it’s more convenient than taking transit.
This is exactly why subway systems work so well – NYC, Vancouver Canada… good walking environments + well-spaced stations.
Portland, with its generally excellent pedestrian-scaled public environments, ought really to build all the future MAX lines as a light metro statio (like St. Louis did on their latest new line). That way you can actually get around quickly. It’s no fun when you watch as you sit on the MAX/streetcar as people walk faster than the train!
*TriMet uses a half-mile walking distance in regards to MAX stations. They also believe people are willing to walk that far to Frequent Service buses.
*A good example of a barrier to accessing transit is the Overlook MAX station. People living east of I-5 have to walk an extra half mile to reach the northbound platform after they cross I-5. http://www.jasonmchuff.net/TriMet/imax.htm
*I’d definitely say that the conditions affect the perceived distance and whether people are willing to walk it. I sometimes walk from the Greyhound station to my parents house in Salem. The walk is punctuated with various things that can serve as a distraction and it doesn’t seem that long, but maps show it to be a good mile.
*I agree that MAX should have been put in a tunnel and not on the mall.
But a bus line in Lake Oswego that only runs once an hour and has random 1.5 hour gaps (38) is not worthy of walking to. Because odds are – with my luck – I will be 1/2 a block away and the bus will drive by, and then I will be stuck with no options for an hour.
Interesting.
So, in Tualatin there is the Hazelbrook neighborhood, which includes two apartment complexes and numerous homes, and there are several employers at the edge of it. A corner of the Hazelbrook neighborhood is bordered by Highway 99W, which is served by line 12-Barbur.
Line 94 also is on Highway 99W, but doesn’t stop.
I wonder…I just wonder…how many people would ride Line 94 if it bothered to stop for this neighborhood of two apartment complexes and who-knows-how-many-homes. I recall seeing quite a few people riding the line 95 from this stop when it operated, but TriMet’s infinite wisdom said that they didn’t need the line 95. Never mind that when TriMet’s customer service reps were on board the 95 gathering customer feedback, that the response was 100% against cancelling the 95 because it served stops the 94 didn’t (two more good examples are Royalty Parkway and Canterbury – both have large residential populations nearby, and multiple apartment complexes – and are difficult walks to any other bus stop.)
Why walk to a stop when the 12 is every 30 minutes apart, and during that same time you’re guaranteed to see THREE line 94 busses drive past you without slowing down? If you walk to the stop and miss the 12, your options are walk 10 minutes across a bridge with a very narrow sidewalk and a portion of 99W with no sidewalk (while cars and trucks are driving past at 45-55 MPH) to Fischer Road to catch a 94 or a King City shortline 12, or wait.
In other words, TriMet could easily expand transit service in this neighborhood (that is otherwise unserved) by simply allowing line 94 busses to stop, which may cause a delay of one minute at most (never mind the fact that the stops are not ADA compliant, which reduces the possibility of anyone requiring a wheelchair lift.)
Erik –
“In other words, TriMet could easily expand transit service in this neighborhood (that is otherwise unserved) by simply allowing line 94 busses to stop, which may cause a delay of one minute at most”
Isn’t that the question for every express bus? You make the case for one location, but how many other locations have an equal claim? And how many times can a bus stop before it stops being an express?
I think it is important to keep pressing Trimet for better service. And I don’t think you should just accept their judgments. But I think it is important to realize they are trying to deliver the best service possible. They need your help to do that.
I named exactly THREE stops:
99W and Hazelbrook,
99W and Royalty Parkway,
and 99W and Canterbury.
Each of these three stops is well used and has significant population centers, including multiple apartment complexes and residential neighborhoods. The Royalty Parkway stop also serves a shopping center.
95X had served all of these stops and it was still an express (because it made only one stop north of Walnut Street, and that was the 74th Avenue Park & Ride.) Despite 100% unanimous objection to TriMet’s plan from an on-board survey AND an e-mail sent to me by TriMet’s planning department assuring me that no decision had been made (less than a week later a “preliminary” map showing Portland Mall bus reroutes was released, and the 95 was omitted from the map) – needless to say TriMet acted against the public.
Frankly, when it’s said that TriMet needs my help, I’m just not sure what to do anymore. I ride the bus 5 days a week, I have an annual passport provided by my employer, and I have at least a dozen written complaints to TriMet’s planning department for everything from busses that don’t show up to drivers who cause near-misses. (To be fair I’ve also written compliments for several drivers as well, one driver in particular named Tom (I wish I knew his last name but for obivious reasons I don’t) who handled a difficult passenger rather well; and another driver who was to have started his run in King City but was rerouted to Sherwood because the previous bus didn’t go out). I work – I can’t go to TriMet’s board meetings at 10:00 AM when I’m at a call center at 9:30 AM downtown. I have asked repeatedly for Fred Hansen to contact me regarding at least three of the complaints, and of course I have heard NOTHING (why should an un-elected, appointed public servant hired by an un-elected, appointed board of directors bother to serve the public? This is a very sore spot for me.)
The employees of TriMet aren’t the problem – the vast majority of them are hard working. A few of them have issues but name one company where there aren’t a few bad apples; or when someone is having a bad day. This isn’t a slam over the drivers and operators – it’s the ivory tower folks who are far removed from the passengers, who obiviously don’t care – and that is what I bring to this forum. TriMet doesn’t give a S— unless they are going to Washington DC to rake in federal bucks for some light rail project. They’ve gutted the bus replacement project, have cut schedules, and have zero plan to improve local transit in Tigard and Tualatin to coordinate with Commuter Rail. (OK, in the TIP there is ONE local route scheduled to begin in Tigard but there is no actual plan for the route.)
Since no one at TriMet (other than field managers) are willing to talk to me, then I can only think that the solution is much larger – consider talking with local (Tualatin) officials about doing what Wilsonville, Canby and Sandy have done (leave the TriMet system and form a new transit agency) or think bigger – that TriMet has a serious flaw in being a governmental agency that has absolutely zero representation by the pulic (the Board of Directors is not elected by district residents, which is unlike most other governmental entities in Oregon. I have more representation in the Port of Portland despite being 15 miles from the nearest Port facility than I do in TriMet.)
So, I think one of the previous posters had it right – service frequency/reliability is more important than distance. Too bad that TriMet eliminated many morning trips for me. I’ve said it before that I’m seriously thinking about buying a second car, because TriMet’s transit schedules is becoming a problem. It shouldn’t take me over an hour to get home from work (I get off work at 6:30 PM on the PSU campus, but the southbound King City bus is scheduled to arrive at the closest stop three blocks away two minutes later. So 15 minutes of waiting for a King City bus, 45 minute bus ride, 15 more minutes to wait, 5 more minutes on the bus, and a 5 minute walk home. All for only 12 minutes that would take me 20-30 minutes by car.)
I named exactly THREE stops:
99W and Hazelbrook,
99W and Royalty Parkway,
and 99W and Canterbury.
Each of these three stops is well used and has significant population centers, including multiple apartment complexes and residential neighborhoods. The Royalty Parkway stop also serves a shopping center.
95X had served all of these stops and it was still an express (because it made only one stop north of Walnut Street, and that was the 74th Avenue Park & Ride.) Despite 100% unanimous objection to TriMet’s plan from an on-board survey AND an e-mail sent to me by TriMet’s planning department assuring me that no decision had been made (less than a week later a “preliminary” map showing Portland Mall bus reroutes was released, and the 95 was omitted from the map) – needless to say TriMet acted against the public.
Frankly, when it’s said that TriMet needs my help, I’m just not sure what to do anymore. I ride the bus 5 days a week, I have an annual passport provided by my employer, and I have at least a dozen written complaints to TriMet’s planning department for everything from busses that don’t show up to drivers who cause near-misses. (To be fair I’ve also written compliments for several drivers as well, one driver in particular named Tom (I wish I knew his last name but for obivious reasons I don’t) who handled a difficult passenger rather well; and another driver who was to have started his run in King City but was rerouted to Sherwood because the previous bus didn’t go out). I work – I can’t go to TriMet’s board meetings at 10:00 AM when I’m at a call center at 9:30 AM downtown. I have asked repeatedly for Fred Hansen to contact me regarding at least three of the complaints, and of course I have heard NOTHING (why should an un-elected, appointed public servant hired by an un-elected, appointed board of directors bother to serve the public? This is a very sore spot for me.)
The employees of TriMet aren’t the problem – the vast majority of them are hard working. A few of them have issues but name one company where there aren’t a few bad apples; or when someone is having a bad day. This isn’t a slam over the drivers and operators – it’s the ivory tower folks who are far removed from the passengers, who obiviously don’t care – and that is what I bring to this forum. TriMet doesn’t give a S— unless they are going to Washington DC to rake in federal bucks for some light rail project. They’ve gutted the bus replacement project, have cut schedules, and have zero plan to improve local transit in Tigard and Tualatin to coordinate with Commuter Rail. (OK, in the TIP there is ONE local route scheduled to begin in Tigard but there is no actual plan for the route.)
Since no one at TriMet (other than field managers) are willing to talk to me, then I can only think that the solution is much larger – consider talking with local (Tualatin) officials about doing what Wilsonville, Canby and Sandy have done (leave the TriMet system and form a new transit agency) or think bigger – that TriMet has a serious flaw in being a governmental agency that has absolutely zero representation by the pulic (the Board of Directors is not elected by district residents, which is unlike most other governmental entities in Oregon. I have more representation in the Port of Portland despite being 15 miles from the nearest Port facility than I do in TriMet.)
So, I think one of the previous posters had it right – service frequency/reliability is more important than distance. Too bad that TriMet eliminated many morning trips for me. I’ve said it before that I’m seriously thinking about buying a second car, because TriMet’s transit schedules is becoming a problem. It shouldn’t take me over an hour to get home from work (I get off work at 6:30 PM on the PSU campus, but the southbound King City bus is scheduled to arrive at the closest stop three blocks away two minutes later. So 15 minutes of waiting for a King City bus, 45 minute bus ride, 15 more minutes to wait, 5 more minutes on the bus, and a 5 minute walk home. All for only 12 miles that would take me 20-30 minutes by car.)
I named exactly THREE stops:
99W and Hazelbrook,
99W and Royalty Parkway,
and 99W and Canterbury.
Each of these three stops is well used and has significant population centers, including multiple apartment complexes and residential neighborhoods. The Royalty Parkway stop also serves a shopping center.
95X had served all of these stops and it was still an express (because it made only one stop north of Walnut Street, and that was the 74th Avenue Park & Ride.) Despite 100% unanimous objection to TriMet’s plan from an on-board survey AND an e-mail sent to me by TriMet’s planning department assuring me that no decision had been made (less than a week later a “preliminary” map showing Portland Mall bus reroutes was released, and the 95 was omitted from the map) – needless to say TriMet acted against the public.
Frankly, when it’s said that TriMet needs my help, I’m just not sure what to do anymore. I ride the bus 5 days a week, I have an annual passport provided by my employer, and I have at least a dozen written complaints to TriMet’s planning department for everything from busses that don’t show up to drivers who cause near-misses. (To be fair I’ve also written compliments for several drivers as well, one driver in particular named Tom (I wish I knew his last name but for obivious reasons I don’t) who handled a difficult passenger rather well; and another driver who was to have started his run in King City but was rerouted to Sherwood because the previous bus didn’t go out). I work – I can’t go to TriMet’s board meetings at 10:00 AM when I’m at a call center at 9:30 AM downtown. I have asked repeatedly for Fred Hansen to contact me regarding at least three of the complaints, and of course I have heard NOTHING (why should an un-elected, appointed public servant hired by an un-elected, appointed board of directors bother to serve the public? This is a very sore spot for me.)
The employees of TriMet aren’t the problem – the vast majority of them are hard working. A few of them have issues but name one company where there aren’t a few bad apples; or when someone is having a bad day. This isn’t a slam over the drivers and operators – it’s the ivory tower folks who are far removed from the passengers, who obiviously don’t care – and that is what I bring to this forum. TriMet doesn’t give a S— unless they are going to Washington DC to rake in federal bucks for some light rail project. They’ve gutted the bus replacement project, have cut schedules, and have zero plan to improve local transit in Tigard and Tualatin to coordinate with Commuter Rail. (OK, in the TIP there is ONE local route scheduled to begin in Tigard but there is no actual plan for the route.)
Since no one at TriMet (other than field managers) are willing to talk to me, then I can only think that the solution is much larger – consider talking with local (Tualatin) officials about doing what Wilsonville, Canby and Sandy have done (leave the TriMet system and form a new transit agency) or think bigger – that TriMet has a serious flaw in being a governmental agency that has absolutely zero representation by the pulic (the Board of Directors is not elected by district residents, which is unlike most other governmental entities in Oregon. I have more representation in the Port of Portland despite being 15 miles from the nearest Port facility than I do in TriMet.)
So, I think one of the previous posters had it right – service frequency/reliability is more important than distance. Too bad that TriMet eliminated many morning trips for me. I’ve said it before that I’m seriously thinking about buying a second car, because TriMet’s transit schedules is becoming a problem. It shouldn’t take me over an hour to get home from work (I get off work at 6:30 PM on the PSU campus, but the southbound King City bus is scheduled to arrive at the closest stop three blocks away two minutes later. So 15 minutes of waiting for a King City bus, 45 minute bus ride, 15 more minutes to wait, 5 more minutes on the bus, and a 5 minute walk home. All for only 12 miles that would take me 20-30 minutes by car.)
And the online Line 94 page says “Makes all 95-Tigard/I-5 Express stops in Sherwood.” Guess not.
I’ve read that this isn’t the first time that they have tried to mettle with the 95 (at least move it from I-5 to Barbur) only to face stiff opposition. What gets me though, is that they also added trips to Line 94, so its not like it helped capacity on 3rd/4th.
Other examples of not-bright planning with the downtown relocation include the lack of service north of Davis St (to Union Station; especially at night) and the fact that of all the buses added to Columbia/Jefferson, NONE of them serve 18th/the MAX station.
The good news is that Frequent Service to Sherwood is at least in the investment plan.
And the online Line 94 page says “Makes all 95-Tigard/I-5 Express stops in Sherwood.” Guess not.
I’ve read that this isn’t the first time that they have tried to mettle with the 95 (at least move it from I-5 to Barbur) only to face stiff opposition. What gets me though, is that they also added trips to Line 94, so its not like it helped capacity on 3rd/4th.
Other examples of not-bright planning with the downtown relocation include the lack of service north of Davis St (to Union Station; especially at night) and the fact that of all the buses added to Columbia/Jefferson, NONE of them serve 18th/the MAX station.
The good news is that Frequent Service to Sherwood is at least in the investment plan.
I’m sure glad I don’t live in the burbs after reading some of the transit nightmares that take an hour plus. Just sickening the thought.
But I digress.
The statement that cabs are more expensive than transit, I doubt the REAL price difference is that much. The problem lies in the fact that it is immediate out of pocket, and you can’t defer a cab price. Transit however shoves the majority of the cost off on corporations, high income taxpayers, and LID zone users/renters/leasors/etc. Keep in mind, Taxi’s generally don’t get subsidized directly, transit does, and they also have to have competitive employment and operations, unlike transit authorities such as Trimet which operate as a functional monopoly based on political clout of service users.
It all boils down to who gets shafted with the payment, and when they get shafted with the payment. I say shafted because it definitely seems that no one wants to pay full price for transportation these days, but they sure do want to demand and beg for transportation services (that goes for car users too).
…but I digress…
Ross Williams writes: “Isn’t that the service cabs provide? The problem is that its expensive. I believe Trimet did an experiment in Cedar Hills (or was it Cedar Mill) with a door-to-transit shuttle. It don’t think it really paid off with a dramatic increase in transit use. Of course, they didn’t provide transit to door service on the other end of those trips either.”
Generally it works better and the cost is lower when cabs are allowed to practice what is known as ride sharing. I don’t have Portland’s most recent taxi ordinances, but some years ago ride sharing was illegal. Thus higher cost.
It is the regualtions that killed private transit in America.
MHW
And the online Line 94 page says “Makes all 95-Tigard/I-5 Express stops in Sherwood.” Guess not.
Yes, the 94 makes all stops from Tualatin-Sherwood Road @ Regal Cinemas Park & Ride to downtown Sherwood.
That leaves the stop at 99W and Hazelbrook (in the city of Tualatin, with two major apartment complexes, several large employers including GE Infrastructure, a middle school, and several hundred homes) with NO FREQUENT SERVICE (that ends at Durham Road to the north) and NO EXPRESS SERVICE (the nearest stop is a 1/2 mile north at Fischer Road, or several miles south in Sherwood).
Oh, should I mention that for these residents of Tualatin, that the only way to access the Tualatin commercial center, or even the nearest hospital, is by taking the (30 minute interval) 12-Barbur to Tigard TC and transferring to the 76? What is a simple five minute drive takes one 14 minute bus ride to Tigard, 18 minutes back to Tualatin, up to 30 minutes wait time between the 12 and the 76, and up to 30 minutes wait time at the original stop – assuming both busses are on time.
Hmmm, with service that is – excuse my french – CRAPPY – why should anyone in Tualatin even think twice about owning a car? (What’s ironic is that there are no new-auto dealerships in Tualatin or Sherwood, and only two in Tigard.) And all those cars have to take 99W or I-5 north, 217 to the northwest, or I-205 to the east. TriMet could do wonders by…oh…I don’t know, acting like a transit agency? Running…BUSSES? You know, those big white things that they own nearly 700 of? And telling the City of Portland to freakin’ pay for their own damn streetcar? And stop playing tricks with the budget and stop depleting the bus capital budget to fund MAX projects that have been turned down by the public?
I’m willing to walk to transit; the real question is: How much am I willing to sacrifice in order to use transit?
Erik, last week on this thread you said that you wanted to cut all but 2 of the stops out of the Yellow line, (I’m ignoring the one that you wanted to keep that isn’t even a stop,) including the Lombard TC, (which sees about 1000 people/hr at peak,) because it would allow the 100 people/day that want to go to Expo to get there a few minutes faster. This week you are advocating adding stops to an express bus line, and saying that they won’t add much time because the stops aren’t even ADA accessible, (personally, I think TriMet should fix that problem: If it is good enough to be an express stop, it should be ADA accessible, but that is a different topic.) Now, I can see both sides of this argument, but not at the same time!
As for why Fred Hansen doesn’t call you: if I went into city hall at 9 at night and demanded to see Tom Potter cause I’m a taxpayer and I needed to complain, the police would haul me away cause they’d think I was crazy. Likewise, I also don’t insist that Phil Knight call me at home so that I can complain about his shoes, although if I did, guess what? He wouldn’t do it. (Not that that doesn’t stop a lot of people from asking, I know the person that those phone calls go to.) Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not implying that you are a nut, or that your complaints aren’t valid, but if Fred Hansen can’t be bothered to spend his evenings dealing personally with every complaint that everyone wants to make, it might be because he’s got better things to do. That is why he’s got field managers to do that for him…
Phil Knight is NOT an elected official; he has absolutely no responsibility to answer to anyone except a shareholder. (He is not even required to answer to his employees or customers.)
If I were a resident of the City of Portland, and my elected officials (whether it be a Mayor or a Councilor) refused to answer, you better well believe that come election time I’d make it known.
But when someone has a dozen written formal complaints against an agency, I would think someone would take notice. I’ve been in the position to have to respond to complaints before and I don’t discount them. Yes, some complaints may be stupid and pointless, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t merit an answer.
I do have a problem when TriMet is a form of government that is supposedly a democracy, but that TriMet itself is not a democratic form of government, and even has a long history of acting against the wishes of the public, to the point of doing the opposite of what has been approved in ballot measures, scheduling public hearings at inconvenient times, and making strategic decisions – and then holding “public comment” sessions AFTER the decision was made!!
If Fred Hansen has better things to do than, oh, I don’t know, be a government leader – then I say do it. I’m sure there are plenty of COMPANIES that would love him. But TriMet is not a company, it’s a governmental agency. This is the United States and not the Soviet Union – is democracy no longer en vogue?
Erik,
Not sure if you are a shareholder in companies or not. If you are, I suggest that you try contacting the CEO of the company and see what kind of response you get. In my experience it’s pretty much along the lines of what you are getting from Fred Hansen.
Fred Hansen is a leader just like a CEO. If he’s a good one, he’s spending his time leading and spending it answering questions from people like you and me. And if your writing style above is indicative of the approach you’ve taken with TriMet, I’m not sure I’d answer you either- after all what, in the end, would make you happy? Not sure I see much room for any reasonable response that you’d accept.
No, my writing style is not as above – but let’s face it, wouldn’t you be a bit pissed off after awhile?
Have you ever done business with a company that constantly fails to deliver, delivers late or delivers a poor quality product? Do you continue to do business with them today?
Oh, and yes, I am a stockholder. One difference between TriMet and my stocks – I can choose which stocks to buy and sell. Can I choose to withhold the portion of property and payroll taxes that go to TriMet? And use that money to offset the purchase price of a second automobile?
“Have you ever done business with a company that constantly fails to deliver, delivers late or delivers a poor quality product? Do you continue to do business with them today?”
Yes. They are called Comcast, Washington Mutual and Cingular. I do continue to do business with them because my experience with others in the same industry is similar.
Is TriMet everything it could be? No. Is it as bad as the above companies? Not even close in my experience.
To be honest, Erik, based upon your posts you seem more like you want to be running TriMet than just another disgruntled customer. More power to you- but consider a career change for yourself instead of thinking that you represent the “average” customer.
[Chris?]: when door-to-store services ever get approved many more will use transit.
Ross Williams:
Isn’t that the service cabs provide?
Bob Tiernan:
Cabs are hardly are good example to study, particularly when they are highly regulated and thus lack flexibility as well as competition.
Ross Williams:
The problem is that its expensive. I believe Trimet did an experiment in Cedar Hills (or was it Cedar Mill) with a door-to-transit shuttle. I don’t think it really paid off with a dramatic increase in transit use. Of course, they didn’t provide transit to door service on the other end of those trips either.
Bob Tiernan:
It was Cedar Mill, and it was an example of what you get when a bureaucracy like Tri-Met tried to come up with an idea that was not new at all, and with the usual mass of restrictive regulations that don’t allow the idea to be worked out as it has been worked out already in the past. The result is that people conclude that, “the market isn’t working”.
Let me tell you about the Cedar Mill shuttle experiment, and about so-called jitneys which this tried to duplicate to some extent.
People wishing to use that shuttle had to call a day ahead of time, if I recall. There are a lot of trips that become necessary on much shorter notice, so those in that situation would lose out. The vehicles themselves were only allowed to take people to the nearby transit center, not to any doctor or store so far as I recall. So they became a feeder line.
When the year-long experiment was nearing its end (that is, and experiment to those who think that the idea never existed before, or if it did it needed a bureaucrat’s guiding hand, a Tri-Met report on this was on the agenda of the neighborhood association of the Cedar Mill area, held in a meeting room in the office complex near St Vincent’s.
I went there to listen and possible to add my two cents, but in the end said nothing until I talked with some of the residents who were there solely for the shuttle progress report.
There were about eight people there for that item, and they were all users of the shuttle. They expressed (to the Tri-Met bureaucrat) their concern for the imminent plug-pulling of the shuttle or the possible negative changes to the “experiment” once Tri-Met took over. After they were given the usual non-answers, they left the meeting. I followed them out into the lobby area.
I provided them with a short article about the efficient jitney system in Detroit and explained to them that what we need in Portland are privately-owned transport vehicles (cars, vans etc) called jitneys that one can call and then take to doctors, stores, work, and so on, without mandated expense of the government-privileged taxi companies. All eight of these Cedar Mill shuttle users looked at me and said “Why can’t they do this here?.” It was obvious that they just assumed that anyone could operate such a one-man business or small enterprise but that no one was offering this service. I had to tell them that providing this type of service is illegal in Portland as it is in nearly all municipalities. People simple don’t know this, and the winners are the anti-market people who don’t want people to realize that hurdles exist that rob us of choice and additional options, plus the bureaucrats, plus the privileged few who can own cab companies, like politically-connected millionaire Sho Dozono.
Let’s take a quick look at what goes on in Detroit and how that can be applied to Portland.
In Detroit, many poor people (mostly black) have for decades used illegal jitneys for rides to doctor appointments, grocery stores, and other destinations. The drivers are apparently established and known to the regular passenger who have no fear of using them. Even the grocery store chains list the names and phone numbers of jitney drivers to aid their patrons. The drivers, mostly (it appears) retired gentlemen, pick up their passengers, take them to the store, wait for them, help them with their shopping bags, and then take them home, all for about $4.00 (a price from 1997). Compare that to price an elderly lady would pay here for the ride plus the waiting as the clock would be ticking the whole time.
The city council of Detroit, successive city councils in fact, look the other way regarding this service and they are hardly the “free market
right wing” types, but people who actually understand what the service is all about and what it means to those who use them. They should legalize them, of course, if only to get it in the open and thus allow insurance and other business-related legalities to be freely introduced.
But they exist just the same, and with long standing unofficial approval of city government.
Now, here in Portland we could see small jitney operations such as the Kenton-St. Johns Jitney Service, a co-op perhaps that could serve mostly retired people in that part of Portland. No reason why such drivers should be forced by the city to serve the entire city. That would be like mandating that Movie Madness Video open up several other locations to serve the entire city. Who the hell are these bureaucrats who demand that cabs must take passengers to any part of the city they wish to be taken to? That is a business-killing mandate and thus a choice-killing mandate. What we’re talking about here is niche rides that cannot be handled by either Tri-Met or the existing taxi companies.
People who are truly interested in increasing transportation options should demand that Portland repeal their anti-jitney laws from the late teens, laws that were passed under the guise of “citizen safety” but which were nothing more than laws to protect the existing (and mostly private) streetcar companies from competition (jitneys were precursors of bus service as we’ve come to know it). Killing the jitneys stifled transportation options for a long time. The winners were businessmen and government bureaucrats who want you to believe that you need them to plan everything from when and how old Mrs. O’Reilly can get a ride to the doctor to how much a bottle of gin should cost. It may take a few years for such an “industry” to settle into a smoothly operating system with established clientele and drivers, but we won’t get there by not allowing it to start or by believing transit “planners” can mandate it on the first day.
Bob Tiernan
Bob,
Oh yeah, let’s use Detroit as our model. They have certainly taught the world how to create a vibrant community. Right?
Personally, I’m calling Bekins Moving next week so I can make the trek to the promised land. Want to go halfsies on the load?
I’m sure that we can by Glocks on the way as part of our libertarian home security system.
When ideology trumps truth and logic…this is what we get.
Or, we move to Gresham where this seem to be in vogue.
Fortunately Detroit is not the only city with some kind of alternative transit operating that helps people out were the government operated system has failed and often this network of private operators show up in poor neighborhoods, but not always. Atlantic City N.J. also has a jitney operation that is the oldest privately operated transit system in America. With 190, 13 passengers vewhicles they operate 24hrs a day 365 day a year with fares similar to Trimet’s.
Do we need these types of operations nationally and in Portland? Maybe and here is what the government had to say about the need for transportation services here in the good ol’ U.S.
This report is about ten years old and they went into detail as to what some areas are doing to provide people with adequate services, but they did not examine what might happen simply by opening the market to others.
Enjoy
In a report on transportation published by the National Academy Press http://www4.nationalacademies.org/trb/crp.nsf/All+Projects/TCRP+H-08, the government’s own researchers noted, “(t)he lack of personal mobility has economic, social and human cost, such as higher unemployment, reduced tax revenue, greater welfare and medical cost, and limited social potential.
almost half of those without an automobile are 65 or older and 81% of that group are women.
23% of full-time working mothers and almost 60% of part-time working mothers have non-traditional work hours. This reduces women’s ability to join carpools or find appropriately-scheduled transit options.
Nearly 40% of central city black African-American households were without access to an automobile, compared to fewer that one out of five white central city households.
Almost four in ten of American households do not have public transportation available within two miles.” (TCRP p1&2)
Isn’t Portland’s Raz airport shuttle a jitney of sorts? I think the argument for “free market” alternatives is largely ideological rather than based on any sober evaluation of the best way to provide public transit.
Almost four in ten of American households do not have public transportation available within two miles.
Which doesn’t even deal with the question of how many jobs aren’t accessible by transit even if your house is. This is the key problem with over-reliance on the automobile. Those who have one end up stuck in congestion and those that don’t have limited opportunities. If we make public transit available as an alternative for most, if not all, trips we can solve both problems.
Geez, I think I’m jumping in too late on this discussion… but going back to the original post:
I think that folks will walk up to a mile to access high-quality, high-frequency regional transit. That’s about a 20 minute walk. BUT — only if the walk is interesting, and safe.
We generally use a half mile radius for determining the transit oriented development area around a station — and even for half a mile, the walk has to not be too difficult. The easier, more pleasant and interesting the walk, the better (and the longer it can be before the pedestrian actually starts noticing the distance involved).
Slope probably has a good deal to do with this, as well. A one mile walk across a valley is a lot different from a one mile walk over the crest of two very steep hills!! Too often, these studies are not able to take slope/elevation change into account…
Anyways, just food for thought.
cheers,
~Garlynn
Geez, I think I’m jumping in too late on this discussion… but going back to the original post:
I think that folks will walk up to a mile to access high-quality, high-frequency regional transit. That’s about a 20 minute walk. BUT — only if the walk is interesting, and safe.
We generally use a half mile radius for determining the transit oriented development area around a station — and even for half a mile, the walk has to not be too difficult. The easier, more pleasant and interesting the walk, the better (and the longer it can be before the pedestrian actually starts noticing the distance involved).
Slope probably has a good deal to do with this, as well. A one mile walk across a valley is a lot different from a one mile walk over the crest of two very steep hills!! Too often, these studies are not able to take slope/elevation change into account…
Anyways, just food for thought.
cheers,
~Garlynn
I guess a lot has to do with the weather, too. Who wants to walk in the rain? I hardly see how traipsing through the rain, being harassed by bums and having to wait around all the time is “livable”!? Is this their idea of a world-class city? I say FRAUD!
Tri-Met service is pathetic. Last week I visited several nursing homes in SW Portland, Hillsboro and Beaverton to bid on a job for them. A common complaint among the residents at the homes I visited said the Tri-Met monopolized “shuttle” service is usually extremely late picking them up and they often miss doctor appointments. Today I waited for over a half hour for a bus that supposedly runs every 15 minutes. I got frustrated and eventually dialed the useless transit tracker and it said it was going to be delayed another 15 minutes! Who knows if that was even an accurate estimate? That transit tracker is never accurate! I finally just gave up (in frustration) waiting and walked to where I needed to go even though I got drenched doing so. I wouldn’t even HAVE to ride the mass transient system if this dang eye problem had never developed. I think from now on I’m just going to shell out the $$$ for a taxi – I can’t afford being late all the time. I wonder if they’ve ever done a study on how much money is lost due to people just standing around waiting for the next bus or train instead of doing anything productive? It seems like an incredibly asinine way to waste everyone’s time and money, not to mention how much money they piss away on these projects to begin with.
Ok, quadrouple-posting gets kind of ridiculous.
But I digress. I like the jitney idea – and the regulations do need to be relaxed. Perhaps Trimet could also contract out some services & corridors – although that’s a hornet nest best stirred up by others in the industry, not myself!
Hawthorne Says:
Bob,
Oh yeah, let’s use Detroit as our model. They have certainly taught the world how to create a vibrant community. Right?
Bob Tiernan:
Detroit itself has nothing to do with this issue.
Hawthorne Says:
Personally, I’m calling Bekins Moving next week so I can make the trek to the promised land. Want to go halfsies on the load?
Bob Tiernan:
Relocating to Detroit has nothing to do with addressing this transportation issue here in Portland.
Hawthorne Says:
I’m sure that we can by [sic] Glocks on the way as part of our libertarian home security system.
Bob Tiernan:
Gun ownership has nothing to do with this transportation issue.
Hawthorne Says:
When ideology trumps truth and logic…this is what we get.
Bob Tiernan:
I don’t see how truth and logic was trumped by ideology regarding my discussion of a point-to-point transit service that all cities could find room for if they were truly interested in solutions. As for “this is what we get”, I’ll point out that I offered an example of a solution, already tried and tested, and what readers on this blog got in return was garbage.
Let me know when you have something to offer instead of support for a system that will jail a retired man for providing some rides in his neighborhood and which lets a politically connected millionaire, but not you, own a taxi company that’s part of a protected cartel.
Bob Tiernan
Michael Wilson Says:
Fortunately Detroit is not the only city with some kind of alternative transit operating that helps people out were the government operated system has failed and often this network of private operators show up in poor neighborhoods, but not always. Atlantic City N.J. also has a jitney operation that is the oldest privately operated transit system in America. With 190, 13 passengers vewhicles they operate 24hrs a day 365 day a year with fares similar to Trimet’s.
Bob Tiernan:
Looking at the Atlantic City example provides some example of what can easily exist in hundreds of cities in America, but let’s not forget that these, too, are over-regulated to some extent.
For those out there who always imagine the private sector not wanting to go where the State won’t, a blizzard along the eastern seaboard in the late 90’s shut down all transportation in Atlantic City except for the privately operated jitneys.
They didn’t have to operate in those conditions, but many turned out just the same while the
government-owned vehicles (of all sorts) went no where while their drivers got a paid day off.
Bob Tiernan
Ross Williams:
Isn’t Portland’s Raz airport shuttle a jitney of sorts?
Bob Tiernan:
No, they are not. Airport transportation of this sort is not easy to classify but it certainly isn’t free market. Too many regulations come into play despite what you may have read somewhere.
Ross Williams:
I think the argument for “free market” alternatives is largely ideological rather than based on any sober evaluation of the best way to provide public transit.
Bob Tiernan:
Hmmm, well, that’s what millionaire Sho Dozono and perhaps well meaning but ultimately naïve people want you to believe and have wanted you to believe for decades.
I’ll claim that responses that assume that there’s
no real argument any longer, for the most part, and that jitney type services were crushed for
“the good of the people” and for good, sound, reasons, are the real ideological arguments.
We’ll talk more about this tomorrow, but in the meantime I’d like you to try to come up with even one good, sound, reason why a retired man should not be allowed to provide rides for elderly people on a repeat basis, even if confined to one area of the city, provided he has insurance and can qualify as a regular licensed driver like you and I.
Bob Tiernan
“Bob Tiernan”
Thank you for some cohesive and coherent information about how the market provides.
With the horrid opposition of free-markets vs. closed market socialism type, we’ll never have a transit system even remotely close to the early days of Jitneys, Streetcars, busses, and other competitive interests attempting to provide services to the public.
Governments and Government agencies don’t just give up their newly won domains of control to allow people to have their choices back. History has proven that to us very well! :)
:( unfortunately.
Geez, I think I’m jumping in too late on this discussion… but going back to the original post:
I think that folks will walk up to a mile to access high-quality, high-frequency regional transit. That’s about a 20 minute walk. BUT — only if the walk is interesting, and safe.
We generally use a half mile radius for determining the transit oriented development area around a station — and even for half a mile, the walk has to not be too difficult. The easier, more pleasant and interesting the walk, the better (and the longer it can be before the pedestrian actually starts noticing the distance involved).
Slope probably has a good deal to do with this, as well. A one mile walk across a valley is a lot different from a one mile walk over the crest of two very steep hills!! Too often, these studies are not able to take slope/elevation change into account…
Anyways, just food for thought.
cheers,
~Garlynn
Geez, I think I’m jumping in too late on this discussion… but going back to the original post:
I think that folks will walk up to a mile to access high-quality, high-frequency regional transit. That’s about a 20 minute walk. BUT — only if the walk is interesting, and safe.
We generally use a half mile radius for determining the transit oriented development area around a station — and even for half a mile, the walk has to not be too difficult. The easier, more pleasant and interesting the walk, the better (and the longer it can be before the pedestrian actually starts noticing the distance involved).
Slope probably has a good deal to do with this, as well. A one mile walk across a valley is a lot different from a one mile walk over the crest of two very steep hills!! Too often, these studies are not able to take slope/elevation change into account…
Anyways, just food for thought.
cheers,
~Garlynn
eh, apologies for the double post, had some issues with the commenting engine vs. firefox…
Let’s not blame TriMet on ending the use of Sassy’s Cab to run the Cedar Mill shuttle. If you want to blame someone, blame the possibly-corrupt transit union. It is them who will not let transit vehicles be operated by people who don’t receive high wages and benefits.
And while operating an big-city bus route is hard and deserves good pay, I do see a difference between it and a small shuttle service.
Bob R pointed out in this thread what happens when we stop paying people a living wage, (in his case, airline pilots.) They go get food stamps, and unfortunately it ends up costing the government as much anyways. While the fact that the minimum wage isn’t high enough to allow people with full time jobs to actually eat isn’t strictly Tri-Met’s problem, I think Tri-Met should pay a living wage, and that they shouldn’t try to get around that by hiring contractors, (or in this case, a cab company.) And I can’t exactly blame the union for that one…
Jason McHuff:
Let’s not blame TriMet on ending the use of Sassy’s Cab to run the Cedar Mill shuttle.
Bob Tiernan:
They shouldn’t have made the deal to begin with.
I thought progressives (so-called) were against
private-government partnerships. Yet they support
all of these privileges granted to cab companies.
Again, Sho Dozono, a politically connected millionaire who probably knows nothing about this kind of business, gets to own a fleet of cabs while a decent working stiff wishing to start a shuttle service with a friend to compete with cabs will be denied that permit and will be arrested if he operates anyway.
Bob Tiernan
Garlynn:
I think that folks will walk up to a mile to access high-quality, high-frequency regional transit. That’s about a 20 minute walk. BUT — only if the walk is interesting, and safe.
Bob T:
What you think is not the same as reality. It’s not just the distance but the time factor, and the problem with transit (particularly a lousy agency like Tri-Met) is that loads of people will not sacrifice their time if they don’t have to (particularly when the planner geeks drive because they won’t sacrifice their time).
Tri-Met scheduling and routing is poor in many places. As for MAX, when pro-transit/density guru John Fregonese says that light rail is not about moving people but about triggering certain types of land use regulation, you then know what the priorities are.
Bob Tiernan