Royce Pollard on the CRC and Transit


Update: 1/27/07

The Oregonian gets behind Royce with an editorial in support of Light Rail to Clark County.

Original Post: 1/25/07

Vancouver (USA) Mayor Royce Pollard called for bringing Light Rail to Vancouver on the Columbia River Crossing in his State of the City address, according to yesterday’s Oregonian.

“I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating,” Pollard said. “Vancouver and Clark County residents have the cheapest buy-in to one of the most successful light-rail systems in the world, the MAX system. There is over $5 billion invested in light rail across the river. We can tap into that system at a very minimal cost. And believe me, we’d be foolish not to.”

Pollard also referenced global warming and called for a $20-per-vehicle license tax to support other transportation projects in the city.

Go Royce!

,

56 responses to “Royce Pollard on the CRC and Transit”

  1. This is an interesting comment re: The cheap buy-in. Should Vancouver be ‘allowed’ to build 2 miles worth of light rail in order to piggy back on the tri-met system? Should they be strictly limited to paying the costs on their side of the river?

    I think fairness would indicate that also back-pay some of the costs for the Yellow Line extension, and also contribute some, as Vancouver riders may degrade service by making cars increasingly crowded (I can foresee cars being packed to the limit before crossing the river).

    On the other hand, I can see how Vancouver might see such fees as punitive or exploitive. Seeing as how most of us ‘believe’ in expanding MAX, do we just swallow the additional expense for the benefit of extending MAX?

  2. This is an interesting comment re: The cheap buy-in.

    I’d like to know how he gets the $5-billion figure — is he making some kind of adjustment for inflation?

    I wonder if he’s over-selling the idea of how much these projects have cost in order to wow Vancouver residents, while simultaneously giving undue sticker shock to people south of the river.

    – Bob R.

  3. I think fairness would indicate that also back-pay some of the costs for the Yellow Line extension

    The payback ought to come in the form of access to Clark County employment and commercial centers. Any light rail extension into Clark County needs to have ridership in both directions. That means it needs to serve more than park and rides located along freeway corridors. And it means Clark County needs to get its land use act together to concentrate development where it can provide high-quality transit.

  4. I gotta say I agree with Ross Williams.

    But then of course this is the problem with a damnable and morally devoid publicly owned transit system. If the system was privated “Tri-Met” and its “customers” would pay for the expansion with hopes of increasing its “customer” base.

    But instead we have all this exploitive Government social engineering confusion, distrust, and breeding spite brewing instead.

    But then of course, with how much people love to hate corporate entities and business in these parts I can imagine that someone would be saying something like “It’s a company, it benifits too much at the cost of its customers!!!”

    Hogwash is what we’re left with.

    So really, it doesn’t matter who foots the bill. Funding is so skewed and non-choice/market/freedom/liberty/honesty based that it doesnt’ matter where the money comes from anymore.

    Who benifits are the riders. Who is taken advantage of is the taxpayers. Taxpayers are both in Portland AND in Vancouver. So really, it doesn’t matter who has already shouldered the cost. Because we ALL have. Thuse the redistribution of wealth/funds/ideas from the feds back to the states.

    In a sense, Vancouver has already inadvertantly assisted in funding some of the light rail by the scope of the “big picture”.

  5. And a $50.00 per year bicycle registration fee along with a $10.00 per ride light rail fare. It is called equity.

    Motorist paid taxes and fees should not be used for anything other than for streets, roads and bridges. Pollard obviously prefers a socialist government rather than a democratic one. – Go Vancouver Voters

  6. $10.00 per ride light rail fare

    Honestly, I don’t know what would be a “correct” fare to repay MAX capital costs. However, I do know that the actual cost per ride to operate MAX is only about $1.50 And this is considering that MAX could be a lot more efficient by increasing ridership and speeds.

  7. MAX can NEVER be efficient the way it is built:

    There are NO EXPRESS TRACKS! That means the train must stop at every single stop along the route. Existing express routes are canceled when a MAX line opens to make ridership numbers look larger.

    I doubt the transit dependent people in Vancouver are going to trade a 20 minute “sit down” bus ride into downtown Portland for a 45 minute to 1 hour stand up ride through the hood on a toy train.

  8. There are NO EXPRESS TRACKS!

    The only urban transit system in the US with express tracks that I’m aware of is the NYC subway system. Even NYC is not planning on having express tracks on new major additions, such as the 2nd ave. subway.

    doubt the transit dependent people in Vancouver are going to trade a 20 minute “sit down” bus ride into downtown Portland for a 45 minute to 1 hour stand up ride through the hood on a toy train.

    You’ve just insulted most N. Portland residents. If you think N. Portland is “the hood”, I suggest you travel to a few other major US cities and check out their “hoods”. N. Portland is a diverse and relatively safe area.

    Express buses are great if you happen to want to go where the express bus goes. If you want to get off the bus anywhere else along the way, you can’t. Light Rail, outside of the city center, operates with station distances that provide a good compromise – reasonably fast service, and service to many more areas.

    45 minutes is way more than anyone estimates a LRV trip from Downtown vancouver to downtown Portland would take. Current morning peak-hour service on the Yellow Line from Expo Center to Old Town is just 23 minutes. Add 3 minutes, including dwell time, to Hayden Island, and 5 minutes to downtown Vancouver, and you get 31 minutes.

    Inbound Vancouver riders will not be standees, and a 2-car “toy” MAX train carries as many riders as 4-5 standard buses.

    The Yellow Line has dedicated ROW and signal preemption along Interstate Ave, a high-speed viaduct north of Denver Ave., and wide station spacing until Rose Quarter, allowing it to move pretty briskly.

    – Bob R.

  9. doubt the transit dependent people in Vancouver are going to trade a 20 minute “sit down” bus ride into downtown Portland for a 45 minute to 1 hour stand up ride through the hood on a toy train.

    1) As I understand it, the bulk of the people coming from Vancouver are not going to downtown Portland.

    2) People who get on in Vancouver are very likely going to get seats, its the folks in the “hood” who will have to stand.

    3)There is nothing “express” about a bus stuck in freeway traffic.

    4) An express bus from a park and ride in Vancouver to downtown Portland is likely to be empty on the return trip even if you can fill it up one way.

  10. “The only urban transit system in the US with express tracks that I’m aware of is the NYC subway system.”

    Philadelphia has a small section of express tracks on Market and North Broad streets. They should have built a lot more.

  11. There’s also the Evanston Express, which run express between the Chicago/Evanston border to Belmont, which ends up skipping 11 stops on the north side on its way to downtown.

    While I don’t think you need express tracks to have a viable transit system for long-distance commuters I *do* think there’s work that needs to be done. The MAX really does need to run underground from somewhere around the Rose Quarter through downtown, if you build a subway you could also reduce the number stops, the end result would significantly cut down on the 22 minutes that MAX says it needs to get through downtown. You cut that 22 minutes down to say 12 and the need for an express train drops a tad.

  12. Multi-Track Lines seem to be predominant in that area of the country. The Northeast Corridor is 4-Tracks in many places. Then again, these cities were more developed before the Auto came into effect, although New York fell back. I am not sure if the 2nd Ave Subway they are about to build will be 4 tracks, but I would not be suprised if they do. On a Trolleybus Site, I saw a photo of a second set of wires for Express TrolleyBuses(Perhaps this picture is why they never did that for the 7-Ranier Ave up here).

    http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Philadelphia/TT/Frankford.jpg

    http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Philadelphia/TT/

    Now here is a proposal I found on a website a few months back that is interesting for New Orleans, to help rebuild(the Streetcar Lines, New Orleans RTA, and the city itself) the devestated city. (The Grand Boulevard as it is called, is at the bottom of the page). The Concept would include an express track.

    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/neworleans.htm

    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/New_Orleans_Grand_Boulevard.jpg

    Now I understand that it might not be possible for an express track, but down in Los Angeles, supposedly on the Gold Line they use crossover tracks to allow for Express Trains to pass local trains. I noticed in some planning documents for ST phase II up here, that propsed extensions would have crossover tracks, about 5 of them between segments.I know that there are constraints in Downtown Portland for the Express Trains, so perhaps this innovative concept would not work.

  13. Anthony said:

    “MAX can NEVER be efficient the way it is built:

    There are NO EXPRESS TRACKS! That means the train must stop at every single stop along the route. Existing express routes are canceled when a MAX line opens to make ridership numbers look larger.

    I doubt the transit dependent people in Vancouver are going to trade a 20 minute “sit down” bus ride into downtown Portland for a 45 minute to 1 hour stand up ride through the hood on a toy train.”

    >>>>>> Now you see why I am so pro-BRT for Portland. At least they could build the transit lanes on the new bridge for multi-modal use (bus/trolley) to provide for future conditions.

  14. You’ve just insulted most N. Portland residents. If you think N. Portland is “the hood”, I suggest you travel to a few other major US cities and check out their “hoods”. N. Portland is a diverse and relatively safe area.

    Surely, the “transit-oriented development” areas of the Galleria MAX stop, Lloyd Center, all of the stops along Burnside, and Rockwood, are just as “safe”. Frankly, Beaverton TC isn’t a friendly place to be hanging out at, either; and neither are some of the stops along the Banfield (Hollywood/42nd and 82nd come to mind.)

  15. A response to a few comments:

    Bob R. — 31 mins as if light rail was the only trip. You forget many Vancouverites will need to make some needless transfer to MAX + Old Town to Pioneer Sq takes a good 10 mins on its own.

    Ross — Even when stuck in traffic buses outperform rail. That is why trimet discontinues any competing bus routes: so light rail does not appear slow. Add a few transit + carpool lanes to any freeway (not just re striping, I mean actual construction) and you can have a pretty quick commuter system for a fraction of the cost of rail + the infrastructure can be used for other uses (like emergency vehicles).

  16. Erik — When I was growing up, I used to walk from Division to that 148th MAX stop all the time. That area has changed a lot!

    In 1996-97, they started building 4 and 5 story “section 8” apartment complexes close to the stop. Most of the buildings were pretty plain looking with vinyl siding, small parking lots, and no lawns or landscaping. My mom even commented about the lack of parking. She said “you watch, this will be the new Rockwood.”

    Now, I think twice before even DRIVING through that area after dark. Between Glisan and Stark is nothing but slum complexes with thug groups walking around causing trouble. Cars parked on the street frequently have windows busted out. Mouthy teenagers hang out in front of the store trying to get beer and cigarettes.

    Thanks MAX!

  17. Even when stuck in traffic buses outperform rail. That is why trimet discontinues any competing bus routes: so light rail does not appear slow.

    The fact is express buses run empty half the time. They are great for people who want to get from point A to point B but nowhere in between(that’s why they are fast). And they are usually empty going back from Point B to Point A. Its true that an express bus can serve a small set of of the same trips faster than Max, but at an additional and far higher cost. The reason Trimet eliminates them is they are an expensive luxury service for a few people who can use MAX for the same trip.

  18. However, I do know that the actual cost per ride to operate MAX is only about $1.50
    JK: Now add in construction costs and get back to us.

    West side LRT cost ONE BILLION and carries 1/3 of one lane of freeway worth of commuters.
    see DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/RailAttractsDrivers.htm

    thanks
    JK

  19. As for the earlier comments that Vancouver should pay a higher fee to buy into the system to cover the Yellow line costs…

    …I thought the 60,000 Vancouver/ Clark employees who work in the Portland area already have through their employer fees, income taxes, and other fees.

    As for the 4 track express model…I agree it would be nice…I have brought this issue up during CRC discussions but the current MAX model does not accommodate it and few seem to be pressing it for the Vancouver sections…I ride the MAX a lot, as I bike across the I5 bridge to avoid the slow MLK 6 when possible. (I grew up in the NJ where commuter rail operated well with electrified express service since the 1920’s.)

    Perhaps a form of ‘skip stop service’ at night could be done by requiring a passenger to press a button to stop at a station (flag stop service). I wish the Yellow line had this now, as I am often the only rider north of Lombard late at night.

    I would also like to see the use of tracks laid with turf in the Vancouver city center, for aesthetics and storm water runoff vs. the Interstate concrete look. I have seen this used in Amsterdam and in Barcelona – it is stunning. (Chris, I can send you a photo.)

    Some good C-TRAN news is that they will have some moderate headway bus routes with late night service (until 12.30AM) in 2007. The 71 and 4 seem to be taking the place of the Trimet 6.

    Todd
    Vancouver

  20. I thought the 60,000 Vancouver/ Clark employees who work in the Portland area already have through their employer fees, income taxes, and other fees.

    This is a good point. Employers pay trimet taxes whether someone lives in Oregon or Washington. It doesn’t change the fact that transit that only carries people in one direction is an expensive luxury.

  21. As I understand the CRC Task Force’s recommendation, there has been a hidden little secret, one big bridge is actually three bridges side by side tied together – one for Northbound motor vehicle traffic, one for Southbound motor vehicle traffic and one for transit, bicycles and pedestrians.

    With three bridges, there is a separation of motor vehicles and alternative modes. With that separation there is also a separation separation of price tag which makes it easy to divide up the costs with separation of who pays “IF” tolls are charged – motorists for the freeway, and transit riders and bicyclists can battle each other to see which group, or both, pays for the third structure.

    And if they (the transit riders and bicyclists) are not willing finance the third structure – it needs to be eliminated from the project with only the freeway part going forward.

  22. I’m sorry, but the “People from Vancouver will crowd out the people from N Portland on the MAX and that isn’t fair” is a fake argument. If the entire line to Vancouver had been built at once, then the people of N Portland would have had to pay just as much to build their share of it. The fact that N Portland built their’s first means that they are smarter than the people from Vancouver, but it doesn’t entitle them to special treatment. Look at it this way: the people of Beaverton don’t get special treatment on the MAX over the people from Hillsboro (okay, they do now with the Red, but they didn’t when it was first built,) and later on I doubt that the people from Hillsboro will get special treatment over the people from Forest Grove, so why should N Portland people get special treatment over the people from Vancouver? People closer to downtown typically have to stand on the mass transit systems, that is just how the systems work. If people from N Portland wanted a seat on the MAX, they could move to Clark County, but I highly doubt that anyone would do that, I mean, it is a very simple trade off, would you rather stand for 15 minutes, or sit for 25?

    Now, N Portland may be willing to pay extra for special treatment… For instance, I’m fairly sure that if Trimet would just write up a ballot measure to convert the Lombard TC to St John’s portion of 75 to light rail or streetcar, (with service to downtown,) it would probably get approved&paid for on the first try… Or, we could just take up a collection from the riders right now to buy more vehicles for the route. But, you know, people from the “hood” are kind of weird like that…

  23. The fact is express buses run empty half the time.

    Not necessarily true.

    TriMet’s line 96 Tualatin I-5 Express is a bi-directional express line (it’s the only bi-directional express, actually) and has pretty decent loads in BOTH directions.

    On the other hand, one of the Portland newspapers printed the load factors of MAX trains LEAVING downtown during the AM rush hour. In short, there’s no point in running MAX trains eastbound out of downtown towards Gresham; but due to the nature of MAX/Light Rail, you have no choice. You can’t just take that equipment and run it somewhere else; like a bus that could run, for example, as a line 94 inbound, then outbound as a line 12, back inbound as a 12, then outbound as some other route (say a 9).

  24. Regarding MAX efficiency, as Doug notes the central city is one problem, and there will be more of it. But the Yellow Line could also have been built to be faster. There are 3 separate street jogs on Interstate that slow trains to 20 MPH and overall speeds are limited to 35 (I think). If it was built in the space next to the freeway, trains could go 55 (and also attract riders from the east).

    But even considering that, MAX riders who pay $2 do essentially pay for (some of?) the capital expenses. And it is inefficient to continue express bus service parallel to MAX.

  25. People closer to downtown typically have to stand on the mass transit systems, that is just how the systems work.

    And the result is that if you extend the line to Vancouver, people in North Portland will have to stand a lot more often. They get the burden, Vancouver residents get the benefits.

    The freeway works the same way. People in Vancouver and North Portland will be stuck at increasingly long lines at ramp meters. The people who get on in the distant rural Clark County get the benefits, the folks downstream get the burden.

    If you add capacity to the freeway, property values in rural Clark County go up, values on the Oregon side of the river go down. The benefit to rural Clark County residents, the burden to urban Oregon.

    There is nothing “fake” about those impacts. In fact, it is precisely these kinds of imbalances in burdens and benefits that hollowed out the core of many major urban centers.

    Where would you rather live? Rural Clark County where you are 30 minutes from Kruse Way? Or in North Portland where you have the options of an hour trip by transit including a long slog without sidewalks. An hour trip with 30 minutes spent in line to get on the freeway while the rural Clark County residents zoom by to downtown Portland. Or an hour or more caught in congestion on local streets with all your neighbors who have been forced off the freeway.

    Is that exaggerated? Yes, to some extent. But when you add the advantages of a transportation system designed to give them priority to the other benefits, living in Rural Clark county can look pretty appealing to a lot of people.

    Lets be clear. For people who currently use the Max there is almost no benefit to it extending across the river. There are no destinations in Vancouver that are all that desirable. It is all burden, and no benefit. That isn’t a fake argument.

  26. Like a bus that could run, for example, as a line 94 inbound, then outbound as a line 12, back inbound as a 12, then outbound as some other route (say a 9).

    I don’t think that makes any sense does it? The problem is more people are trying to get to downtown Portland than are trying to get out of downtown Portland. More people are going to Washington County to go to work than are leaving Washington County to go to work. Buses are no different than Max in that respect, they are just more costly to operate.

  27. I agree with you totally Terry.

    $10.00 per ride light rail fare

    It averages out to about $1.12 per mile even with infrastructure costs.

    Auto users however get away with all sorts of “freebies”. Let’s not forget to balance that out either. At about 25-50 cents per mile (depending on the system of street) should go directly to the user.

    Which means a significant decrease in auto/road costs for some (like me) and a significant cost increase for the freeloaders (sub-50k users).

    I do have to say, for public road usage of bicycles I can see it being reasonable to have a licensing/road maintenance cost each year. But I think it insanely ridiculous for neighborhood usage and children.

    ———————————
    Anthony

    On another topic. Seriously, nowhere in Portland is there a “hood”. To state that NOPO is a hood is just to imply you haven’t been to a real “hood”. Go to New Orleans, Jacksonville, Chicago, Jersey, Columbia OH, or a dozen other cities and then come back and think about your adjective use.

    Bob R.

    There are numerous express tracks in Chicago & San Francisco for the commuter rail. Even with the current setup if it wasn’t so “Basic” in service levels there could be express LRVs running easily. But FRA rules would have to change and some people that actually understood how to implement would probably have to come in to set it up right. No real track additions more than a mile or two for the whole system are really needed. But I diguress, express service would be a major boon. Because until the LRVs get sped up then they just aren’t competitive with automobile usage in ANY way. Time is far more valuable to people, even if they waste it sitting behind the wheel not doing anything productive.

    45 minutes is way more than anyone estimates a LRV trip from Downtown vancouver to downtown Portland would take.

    31 minutes LRV trip, 45 minutes LRV trip, or unfortunately 14-35 minutes via the interstate with or without traffic. Most of the time though (non-rush hour) it is gonna be near 15-20 minutes. It’s a hard competitive sell to get out of the car. Chop that one up to bad design though. The Interstate MAX desperately needs some real running speeds. 30-35mph just doesn’t cut it.

    That’s why I always just schedule my Vancouver trips and jump the Amtrak Cascade Service. Best time I’ve had was 13 minutes from Union Station in Portland to the Depot in Vancouver. A quick cab ride to downtown for a total trip time of about 16 minutes. Also a nice point is the Cascade service, in all reality is the LEAST subsidized form of transportation from downtown PDX to Vancouver that is available. All other forms have a higher percentage rate. That goes for the PDX to anywhere north via Amtrak Cascades.

    Alex-jon Says:

    They hate you because you’re righteous and they’re scum, yanno.

    Is that why I never feel like I’m in trouble in areas like that? Because I’m not rightous and I’m not scum? Or is it because I pack (legally) and fear not for my life in a country with a supreme court that gaurantees my right of self defense?

    Personally I think it is a bit of all the above.

    …and my last few notes.

    But even considering that, MAX riders who pay $2 do essentially pay for (some of?) the capital expenses.

    Nope, that’s all LID, Income Tax, and other “taxes” that pay for that. The transit system only covers about 30-60% of “operational” costs and zero of capitol costs.

    Or, we could just take up a collection from the riders right now to buy more vehicles for the route.

    There is no way in the world that there would be enough money collected for barely a single vehicle I would bet. The vast majority of people think transit fees cost “too much” as it is. The same goes for road tolls, auto costs, and all that crap. It’s really not fair at all because a fare of some type SHOULD cover the costs of all service provided. But nobody except the upper 40-50% of income earners are the ones who pay for this stuff.

  28. Ross,

    I don’t think that makes any sense does it?

    Look at TriMet’s 96 schedule. Ride it sometime. People ride it outbound. Heck, people ride the 12 outbound in the morning rushhour too. Just as the 12 can be jammed packed inbound at Barbur & Terwilliger at 7:30 PM at night.

    The same newspaper article even clearly showed that there was demand for westbound/outbound traffic in the morning rush hour, although not as much as inbound. People go to where the jobs are in the morning. Where are the jobs in Gateway/Rockwood/Gresham? The jobs that are in Gresham are nowhere near were MAX is.

    If it doesn’t make sense, why does TriMet continue buses through downtown (Barbur Blvd becomes Sandy Blvd; Fessenden becomes Division; Broadway becomes Powell)? Many other transit agencies do exactly as I describe (King County Metro is a good example).

    Express busses (and LRT) have a disadvantage in that if kept to themselves, do indeed run the majority (60-70%) of their time EMPTY or near empty. A bus is flexible; it can go to where the demand is. Should we propose demolishing six city blocks in downtown Portland to build a MAX storage yard, so that we don’t spend money needlessly in operating empty trains?

    Unfortunately for Vancouver, they don’t have much of a choice because they have their own transit district; there isn’t much for a C-Tran bus to do except to pick up whatever passengers have jobs in Vancouver in the morning. However they have chosen to fund their transit district the way they have, so they can deal with it. I don’t see the need to have to pay for empty trains to shuttle to Vancouver during the AM rush hour (which has a direct translation to les bus service elsewhere in TriMet’s service area).

  29. I need some help here. Someone explain to me how this light rail to Vancouver is to work. I assume it is going downtown. At least from what I hear it will be and then what? Are people still going to park at Salmon Creek and ride a bus, but get off in downtown Vancouver and transfer to the light rail, or are they going to do away with the bus and have people drive into downtown Vancouver and then find a place to park?
    Sounds to me like someone needs to work out the logistics before any construction takes place.
    Of course we could try to get the politicians to open the market to others and allow a bit of competition to find a few new ways to get the job done.
    I do find it a bit strange that so many people will trumpet the value of openess in government, or the value that open source programming has been for computers, but when it comes to applying that same idea to other parts of the marketplace there seem to be no room for the idea of openesss.
    MHW

  30. Someone explain to me how this light rail to Vancouver is to work. I assume it is going downtown. At least from what I hear it will be and then what?

    I don’t think anyone can answer that. There are a number of plans that have have been thrown around, but all of them are subject to future decisions by the voters. Whether any of them can get enough support to actually get implemented is questionable.

    I think a lot of people believe if they can get it to downtown Vancouver the political pressure to extend it will eventually get some consensus for extensions. At least in Vancouver. Whether those extensions will provide Portland residents to Clark County job and commercial centers is questionable. They may very well connect mostly to park and rides.

  31. The transit system only covers about 30-60% of “operational” costs and zero of capitol costs.

    When reduced-price (through free service, discounts, transfers and passes) rides are taken into account, probably. I meant to say that the present average operating cost of a MAX ride is about $1.50, and that those who use a $2 (or $1.70) ticket for one ride (say, between the airport and a downtown hotel or to a long event) generate extra money that can go towards capital costs. And that there were/are ways to make operations cheaper (other ways are fill up trips that are underused and design the system for longer trains)

  32. One thing you can be sure of, according to past experience: if the MAX is extended to Clark County, some riders’ service is going to be degraded, most likely through new, inconvenient transfers and/or longer trip times.

  33. I need some help here. Someone explain to me how this light rail to Vancouver is to work. I assume it is going downtown. At least from what I hear it will be and then what? Are people still going to park at Salmon Creek and ride a bus, but get off in downtown Vancouver and transfer to the light rail, or are they going to do away with the bus and have people drive into downtown Vancouver and then find a place to park?

    The original 1994 plan, which Clark County voters rejected, would have taken light rail through downtown Vancouver and then north through Hazel Dell to Salmon Creek park & ride. The more current proposal is for a “loop” — through downtown and then northeast to Vancouver Mall, then south along the I-205 corridor to hook into the red line. I assume that route would terminate at Gateway TC.

    Ross is right, I think: the current thinking is to just get it into downtown Vancouver where it can connect to numerous C-Tran routes, and then let Clark County figure out where to take it from there. Personally, I’d like to see two LRT lines (Yellow and Orange) running up the Interstate Corridor and across the Columbia, with one going to Salmon Creek and the other to Vancouver Mall.

  34. Jason McHuff Says: The transit system only covers about 30-60% of “operational” costs and zero of capitol costs.
    JK: Try 20.69% per Trimet Brochure linked above to show the $1.52 MAX “cost”

    Jason McHuff Says: … generate extra money that can go towards capital costs. And that there were/are ways to make operations cheaper (other ways are fill up trips that are underused and design the system for longer trains)
    JK: Huh! First is has to cover that pesky little 79.31% of the operating cost paid by taxpayers. Only then could we dream of paying towards capital cost.

    Thanks
    JK

  35. One thing you can be sure of, according to past experience: if the MAX is extended to Clark County, some riders’ service is going to be degraded

    This is no doubt true. For instance, its unlikely the the MLK bus will continue across the river. The real question is whether overall service would improve. You can also be sure that many users will benefit from the faster, smoother, more comfortable, more reliable trips that light rail will provide. And you can be sure more people will use light rail than will take a bus.

  36. I like the punch line where Pollard says that a $20 tax will be needed. Only the first of many, Mayor Pollard. Just look at how many taxes have been slammed onto Portlanders. Not to mention the perpetual bleeding of federal dollars. The only cities that have commuter rail systems that come close to “penciling out” are in an entirely different league from Portland.

    Once these multi billion dollar projects are completed they will be deemed inadequate, and followed by more–and also more taxes. A better solution–build the multimodal corridor from Northwest Portland to the Vancouver AMTRAK station and forget all of this other nonsense.

  37. Ross Williams Says: And you can be sure more people will use light rail than will take a bus.
    JK: Of course we will be spending a billion or so on that toy. Here is the real question:
    Would we attract more TOTAL TRANSIT RIDERS if we spent that billion on a better bus system? (Of course, allocated so that it would last as long as the toy trains.)

    (Did you know that the BILLION dollar Westside MAX removes about 1/4 of one lane worth of cars from US26 during rush hour? See DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/RailAttractsDrivers.htm)

    Thanks
    JK

  38. Jim Karlock said:

    “Would we attract more TOTAL TRANSIT RIDERS if we spent that billion on a better bus system? (Of course, allocated so that it would last as long as the toy trains.)”

    Yes, there is no doubt that a good “plush bus” BRT/express bus system would attract more transit riders because it could offer not only comfortable, but also faster, more tailored service (e.g., Vancouver to Beaverton, if the demand warrants).

    This is why I am amused, and do not take seriously, all these threads about the operational costs of one modality vs. another.
    The focus should be on offering the best possible service to the riding public, and costs will take care of themselves many times.

  39. JK wrote: Did you know that the BILLION dollar Westside MAX removes about 1/4 of one lane worth of cars from US26 during rush hour?

    The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials says that the “derived service volume” of a single freeway lane at peak hour with a “level of service C” is about 1,370 cars/hour. That’s about as many cars as you can realistically get – higher speeds equal fewer cars per hour. As we established in a previous discussion, ODOT lists average passenger volumes in the Portland area at 1.27, so a single freeway lane would carry about 1,740 people per hour at peak times, and that’s if there are no trucks in the lane.

    At peak hour (when issues of congestion really matter) in one direction, MAX carries about double that number of people in the peak direction.

    The figure, at peak hour, is much closer to “Max carries the volume of two traffic lanes” than 1/4 lane as you have stated.

    Stretching out averages over the whole day is meaningless when it comes to congestion.

    – Bob R.

  40. Let’s face it, the “O” gets behind just about anything that increases taxes on people and spends more taxpayer dollars on subsidies. Supporting Pollard is just the same old same old that isn’t even newsworthy.

  41. Jim Karlock said:

    “Would we attract more TOTAL TRANSIT RIDERS if we spent that billion on a better bus system? (Of course, allocated so that it would last as long as the toy trains.)”

    Funny, my research shows the opposite. Bus riders ride because they have no other commuting options, in many cases. Light rail riders pull car drivers off the road, bringing new people into transit who did not use it before. And if some trends are to be believed, light rail increases usage on ALL modes–including the bus.

    I wonder how many times the collective will have to bludgeon jk with the facts before he stops?

  42. I wish you guys would stop with the “get cars off the road.”

    It is NOT the function of the government to try and alter choices of free Americans. The function of the government is to SERVE free Americans.

    If taxpayers want to drive (and most, if not all do), our government should be doing everything in the power to accommodate them not discourage them!

  43. Bob R. Says: JK wrote: Did you know that the BILLION dollar Westside MAX removes about 1/4 of one lane worth of cars from US26 during rush hour?

    The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials says that the “derived service volume” of a single freeway lane at peak hour with a “level of service C” is about 1,370 cars/hour. That’s about as many cars as you can realistically get – higher speeds equal fewer cars per hour. As we established in a previous discussion, (JK note: I don’t have a record of this) ODOT lists average passenger volumes in the Portland area at 1.27, so a single freeway lane would carry about 1,740 people per hour at peak times, and that’s if there are no trucks in the lane.
    JK: Although, it doesn’t affect my conclusion, you might be interested in this:
    A typical freeway can handle 2,000 cars per hour in each lane, but the Sunset can handle 2,300 during peak hours because the cars move faster and closer together than on other freeways Oregonian, October 14, 1993.

    Bob R. Says: At peak hour (when issues of congestion really matter) in one direction, MAX carries about double that number of people in the peak direction.
    JK: That is NOT WHAT TRIMET says: MAX carries 26% of afternoon rush-hour commuters traveling from downtown on the Sunset Hwy. and Banfield Fwy. corridors. (from trimet.org/pdfs/publications/factsheet.pdf) Note the “from:” indicating it is outbound only.
    Now lets think about this:
    The Sunset Hwy. is 3 lanes in each direction, so there are 4 “lanes”, counting MAX as one lane. Of 4 lanes, MAX carries 26%, which is just a little more that the 25% it would carry if all 4 “lanes” carried the same number of “rush hour commuteres”.
    Conclusion: MAX carries about the same number of “rush-hour commuters” as one lane of freeway.
    But some of those commuters would be on a bus if they hadn’t spent a BILLION on MAX. It appears that 2/3 of MAX riders would be on a bus if MAX had not been built ( “Of the 5.415 total transit users, 3,642 (67%) were previous transit users…”, DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/RailAttractsDrivers.htm. Be sure to see the link to the October 29, 1998 Oregonian report that is the foundation of this claim.
    Therefore MAX carries a number of “rush-hour commuters” equal to 1/3 of the number of people on one lane of the freeway.
    And the number of cars removed is 1/3 divided by 1.27 people per car = 26%
    MAX only reduces traffic by 26% of one lane of freeway, according to Trimet’s own data.

    Bob R. Says: Stretching out averages over the whole day is meaningless when it comes to congestion.
    JK: I didn’t stretch out anything, I just cut through Trimet’s spin to get at Trimet’s underlaying facts.

    Thanks
    JK

  44. torridjoe Says: Jim Karlock said: “Would we attract more TOTAL TRANSIT RIDERS if we spent that billion on a better bus system? (Of course, allocated so that it would last as long as the toy trains.)”

    Funny, my research shows the opposite.
    JK: Care to share it with us? Or are we to just rely on your assertion, like you DON’T rely on mine?

    torridjoe Says: Bus riders ride because they have no other commuting options, in many cases. Light rail riders pull car drivers off the road, bringing new people into transit who did not use it before. And if some trends are to be believed, light rail increases usage on ALL modes–including the bus.
    JK: You completely miss my point: How much would we have to spend to improve the bus system so that it would attract more riders than rail? Free dinners? Movies? Whatever it would take to get MORE bodies (yuppies or not). Once we figure out how to get that number of people, then the question is does it cost more or less than LRT?

    Just as an aside, according to Tom Rubin, a transit system auditor, LA turned around their multi-year decline in transit ridership by killing LRT because it was taking money from the bus system which was forcing a cutback in bus services. It appears that we are just starting to see those bus system cutbacks in Portland now (and ridership declines?).

    torridjoe Says: I wonder how many times the collective will have to bludgeon jk with the facts before he stops?
    JK: At least until you get it right JUST ONCE.

    Thanks
    JK

  45. Jim,

    For someone who talks about facts, you neglected to mention that Tom Rubin could only be considered a “transit system auditor” under the most generous of definitions. He is a consultant who is a paid speaker for the American Dream Coalition, a political organization with a firm anti-rail agenda.

  46. Bus riders ride because they have no other commuting options, in many cases. Light rail riders pull car drivers off the road…

    Poor bus service puts car drivers ON the road because even people who really can’t afford it will make avoiding an uncomfortable and inconvenient commute a priority.

    Of the tens of thousands of Oregon children who lack health insurance, you can bet most of those parents are driving –and insuring– their cars.

    There’s a reason for this beyond selfishness. Our bus system sucks.

    I think it’s a form of arrogance to treat bus ridership as folks locked in to the system whatever you throw their way.

  47. If taxpayers want to drive (and most, if not all do), our government should be doing everything in the power to accommodate them not discourage them!

    If taxpayers want to walk, bike or take transit (and most, if not all, do sometimes), our government should be doing everything in the power to accommodate them not discourage them!

    There is hardly a single trip where government hasn’t provided free American’s with the option of using an automobile. There are a lot of trip’s where the government hasn’t provided free American’s with any other options.

    And perhaps as much to the point, government should be encouraging American’s to use alternatives since there are large public costs to excessive use of the automobile that are shared by everyone.

    There are a lot of factors that determine whether people use transit, but the first question is whether transit service is even available at all for the trip they want to take. Too often the answer to that question is “no”.

  48. Very interesting thread.

    First of all, beware of Trimet’s “statistics,”
    like that 26% figure mentioned.

    Secondly, forget about my opinions for a minute.
    Why have I heard such pronounced criticism of the rail system in Portland from all sorts of people over the years? Just curious.

  49. If taxpayers want to walk, bike or take transit (and most, if not all, do sometimes), our government should be doing everything in the power to accommodate them not discourage them!

    That is EXACTLY why I live in Portland instead of any of the 100% auto oriented areas of the country like Memphis, New Orleans, Jacksonville, Tampa… the only alcoves of relaxed, high standard of living, low transit cost areas are around one of two things.

    Walkable communities on the beach

    …or…

    around the Streetcar lines.

    Everything else is sprawl sprawl sprawl with hours a day spent in the car commuting, buying groceries, etc., etc.

    btw – I got a massive write up coming in a week or three on the specifics of “transportation” in direct relation to lifestyle choices in various cities.

    I’ve lived in almost all of em’ so I got first hand knowledge. But personally I intend to not make it “personal” and use several other people examples that are more closely aligned to the majority of Americans so as to not take my “odd life” as an example. Statistically, I am an EXTREME outlier on the data graphs. IF one could even find me on the data graphs.

  50. Nick Says: First of all, beware of Trimet’s “statistics,” like that 26% figure mentioned.
    JK: I think I figured out Trimet “statistics” above. Just a matter of figuring out what the words mean, instead of what they want you to think they mean, and doing a little grade school math. They don’t seem to outright lie, just conjure up a set of facts that presents things in the best possible light.

    Thanks
    JK

  51. Hawthorne Says: Jim, For someone who talks about facts, you neglected to mention that Tom Rubin could only be considered a “transit system auditor” under the most generous of definitions.
    JK: His resume says that he is a CPA who has worked for a number of transit agencies around the country, including LA’s MTA and Trimet.

    He is a consultant who is a paid speaker for the American Dream Coalition, a political organization with a firm anti-rail agenda.
    JK: Actually the head guy at the American Dream Coalition is a rail buff. It is just that he is also an economist and sees what a waste rail is in most of this country. I am amazed at how many people think that rail is a useful transportation tool when it costs several times what a road costs and even costs double what cars cost to operate.

    BTW he is an excellent speaker and you can see one of his speeches by downloading and playing: portlanddocs.com/video/RM-Rubin-20P-4.rm (19 meg download)

    Thanks
    JK

  52. I don’t think anyone actually answered this question so here goes:

    The projected terminus for LRT in the CRC project is WSDOT property in the Kiggins Bowl area. I believe this is near 39th & I-5. There is space for a large P&R, and many of the C-TRAN bus routes can tie in there or closer to downtown Vancouver. The express bus system will stay in place unless a bunch of people jump onto the MAX line.

    Will extension of LRT to Vancouver be a plus or minus for North Portlanders? Rush hour trains will always be 2 car-sets vs the current situation: 2 of 7 car-sets are doubles while the other 5 are single car-sets. Headways will be reduced to 7.5 minutes during rush hour and 10 minutes off-peak weekdays vs 10 and 15 now. That means 16 cars southbound in the AM peak vs 8 currently. More frequent service with more capacity may match the increase in ridership.

    Those in Vancouver and beyond can actually get to jobs in North Portland via transit – a very difficult task with the current system. Those are cars that are currently taking up space on the road (read I-5) now. The 2 P&R at Delta Park should have increased demand from drivers whose homes are not near transit when the third lane southbound opens as the bottleneck moves south to the Fremont Bridge split on I-5.

    And for those trying to go to Vancouver in the morning…the LRT extension would be a huge win over the current maze.

  53. Hell, us Portlanders could also visit Downtown Vancouver and spend time along all the new developments that are going to happen along the Columbia River. Unless you own a car, you can’t get there right now, because it is such a pain in the ass.. but I would definitely check it out once there is lightrail.

  54. Your Trip on TriMet
    From: Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland
    To: Vancouver Transit Center in Vancouver
    When: Depart after 10:00 a.m. Saturday, February 3, 2007
    Preferences: Quickest trip with a maximum walk of 1/2 mile.

    Option 1: Your best bet
    Walk south from Pioneer Courthouse Square (SW 6th Ave & SW Morrison St) to Pioneer Square South MAX Station (Stop ID 8334)
    10:10 a.m. Board MAX Yellow Line to Expo Center
    10:34 a.m. Get off at N Lombard TC MAX Station
    Go to N Lombard & Interstate (Stop ID 3507)
    10:39 a.m. Board 6 M L King Jr to Vancouver Washington
    10:57 a.m. Get off at Vancouver TC & 7th and Broadway
    Walk east to Vancouver Transit Center
    Travel time: 50 minutes (including 3 minutes walking and 5 minutes waiting)

    Fares: Adult All Zone ($2.00), Youth/Student ($1.35) or Honored Citizen ($0.85)

Leave a Reply to jim karlock Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *