For those interested in the SW corridor project, Metro now has a series of public events scheduled as part of the agency’s public outreach on the project. These events, scheduled during the months of September and October, include an open house, numerous presentations at various local farmers’ markets and other agricultural festivals, and a pair of walks through Burlingame.
31 responses to “SW Corridor public outreach”
The medical facilities on Marquam Hill are such important resources that I hope that the new rail line (Purple? Has a color been proposed?) tunnels under the hill with an elevator to the top, like at the Zoo.
In a winter storm emergency those facilities are effectively cut off from the rest of the city. (Yes, the tram may run, but the tram has nowhere near enough capacity.)
IF there’s ever an LRT in the southwest corridor, you’re absolutely right, Scotty. It’s the one and only genuine activity center in the corridor that’s reasonable to serve (Kruse Way is east-west, so anywhere that a southwest corridor route intersected it would only serve a small fraction of the development along it).
Sorry. I now see that Scotty made the main post. DwaineDibbly proposed the tunnel.
Anandakos–
Did you mean to address your comment to dwainedibbly? I didn’t offer any opinions on the merits of any part of the corridor in the article (though I agree that OHSU is Very Important, and Kruse Way not so much; though given that Kruse Way is part of a different corridor, I’m not sure why it’s being discussed in the context of this project.
Anybody know what potential riderhip is in the corridor?
The medical facilities on Marquam Hill are such important resources that I hope that the new rail line (Purple? Has a color been proposed?) tunnels under the hill with an elevator to the top, like at the Zoo.
Agreed. Topography has limited Pill Hill transit service to the tram and a handful of bus lines on a winding two-lane road; something higher capacity is definitely needed. If they go with the LRT option, I’m thinking they should make it an extension of the Yellow Line rather than going with a whole new color (surprised they’re not doing this with Milwaukie LRT).
I’m glad they’re addressing the lack of sidewalks in SW. It’s amazing how even major thoroughfares like Capitol and Barbur have long stretches w/o pedestrian facilities.
Whatever option ends up being chosen, needless to say, anything requiring a separate ROW in this corridor presents a challenge. Barbur’s a different animal than Interstate.
If they go with the LRT option, I’m thinking they should make it an extension of the Yellow Line rather than going with a whole new color (surprised they’re not doing this with Milwaukie LRT).
Um, MLR is an extension of the yellow line. It’ll take you from the Expo Center to Milwaukie. I think a new color makes more sense than having the yellow split.
When did that happen? It’s always been promoted as the Orange line and with a turnaround at Union Station. I agree MLR SHOULD be an extension of the Yellow, that just makes sense. And I’m sure that’s how it eventually will be operated. But I thought the purpose of using Orange was to qualify for New Starts funding. Maybe I’m wrong.
Anyway, Tigard MAX could also be an extension of the Green line.
When did that happen? It’s always been promoted as the Orange line and with a turnaround at Union Station.
That they market it as the orange line while under construction is pretty weird. But I’m pretty certain that it’s definitely going to be a yellow line extension. For example, the “Your Questions for Neil Round 2” interview done here with Neil McFarlane (transcript):
Whoops, I messed up the transcript link.
I was under the impression that “Orange Line” was a working title for the project. Most likely it will be a Yellow Line extension when it opens.
If the new Barbur Corridor line runs on the surface along Barbur, OHSU could probably be served by a funicular railway from Barbur to OHSU along the Gibbs alignment, under the aerial tram. Not as fast or convenient as a bank of high-speed elevators, but it could be fully automated and operate every few minutes.
Re: connecting OHSU/Marquam Hill to transit on Barbur.
Would a pair of covered escalators be a superior option? It is only 1/4 mile horizontally (and 500 vertical feet) from Barbur to the edge of Shriners or the VA. An escalator means no waiting time, so even a low speed escalator might be faster on average than a funicular that came every 5 minutes.
A light rail tunnel with high-speed elevators is a very expensive solution that saves only a couple of minutes per trip. If we can get money for a new tunnel, we need to consider a downtown subway before MAX reaches capacity thru the city center.
Even a “fast” escalator traveling that distance would take at least 10 minutes. A funicular could do it in less than 2 minutes. Also, escalators are maintenance nightmares. And when one goes down, the remaining one can’t operate both ways. Not so with funiculars. Then you have the problem of ADA-compliance. Escalators cannot handle wheelchairs, and especially for a medical center, that’s a deal breaker.
Regarding the “expense” of the tunnel, it’s very likely that a surface option on Barbur (at least from Downtown to Burlingame) would be more expensive than the tunneled option. But you’re right, a Downtown subway will be necessary in the future. So if SW MAX is indeed tunneled, it needs to anticipate connection to that future subway.
A DBT under OHSU with a single station serving the VA on one end and OHSU on the other would probably be the quickest and most cost-effective method. Just look at the massive work they have had to do for the I-5 project in that section:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/REGION1/iowaviaduct/
I can’t find the costs for this one (imagine how many people would be freaking out if they had a MAX project of this scale with no budget numbers on the information page), but I bet it is pretty high.
A tunnel that serves only Marquam Hill, and then bores out of the ground somewhere south, will require a huge gradient to pop out of the tunnel to climb from whatever the station elevation is (likely in the 100-200 foot range) up to the surface at 400-500 feet. It’d make far more sense on so many levels (except cost, but we all know that money isn’t the only criteria) to keep the route underground, and allow MAX to serve other transit-friendly communities while ignoring the reality of established surface streets. Only a tunnel can hit Marquam Hill, Hillsdale, Multnomah Village, Barbur TC, PCC Sylvania – and then, exit the underground alignment in Tigard – while maintaining a level elevation from Portland to Tigard. This would also eliminate the absolute engineered chaos that would become Highway 99W post-MAX (Oregon’s busiest five lane highway), by which placing MAX on the route would absolutely require the construction of the proposed I-5 to 99W project between Wilsonville and Sherwood (and likely widening the already burdened I-5 in the same corridor). It would also provide service to many of the historic “streetcar suburbs” that were built as transit-friendly neighborhoods and continue to exhibit high levels of bus service; as opposed to somehow making Barbur Boulevard transit friendly (a road always meant as a highway, and with I-5 on one side of it, building MAX would repeat the mistakes of the Green Line) – the topography, lack of sidewalks, and so many other factors make it a lost cause to try and fit MAX onto Barbur. Improving the bus service could be done for as little as $25 million (with 100% brand new articulated buses, 100% brand new Streetcar-style bus stops, and transit-priority projects).
Kruse Way just is not the power center that many folks make it out to be – even Metro recognizes it. The “regional centers” in the area are Washington Square and (sadly) Bridgeport Village – Kruse Way is no more important than many employment areas of Tualatin that have ZERO transit (not even a shuttle bus) and clearly TriMet could care less about Kruse Way, routing only a poorly scheduled, rush-hour only bus that way.
TriMet could, today, run a Tigard TC-Kruse Way-Lake Oswego bus line that would connect with the 12, 45, 76/78, 94 buses and WES at Tigard (just a few minutes to the west) but flat out refuses to. TriMet could, today, run a Lake Oswego bus that actually serves Lake Oswego instead of the pathetic example set forth by the 37 bus with a mere seven daily trips.
We don’t need a billion dollar MAX line to serve Kruse Way – but apparently TriMet doesn’t see it fit to spend $150,000 on a cutaway bus to serve the route. After all, the $160 million “investment” in WES has done wonders to serve Kruse Way as well as the two Metro designated “Regional Centers” – TriMet even was kind enough to kill off the ONE bus that functioned as a WES-employer shuttle route (the 43 tag-on route from Washington Square to the Nimbus Business Center); while failing to live up to the promise of adding local bus services in Tigard and Tualatin to provide easy access between WES and residential and employment centers (can you get from the WES station to any of the largest employers – much less, any significant employer, other than the Haagen store and the nearby retail businesses – in Tualatin by bus?)
I agree a tunnel is preferable, but expensive. The Westside MAX line cost about $60 million per mile in the mid-1990s. Inflation since then will at least double the cost. From memory, the Washington Park station was about $35 million, so I’ll assume at least $70 million per station. And those numbers are probably low, given the cost of the Milwaukie MAX line, which runs entirely on the surface (although admittedly, involves a LOT of condemnation to create the right of way). It wouldn’t surprise me if the tunnel alignment gets close to $2 billion.
The up side to a tunnel is that the stations are SO expensive there will be, by necessity, only a few. Erik’s list of five (OHSU, Hillsdale, Multnomah VIllage, Barbur TC, PCC Sylvania) sounds pretty good. I might drop Barbur Transit Center, though, if most the buses that serve it can connect to MAX at PCC and/or Multnomah Village.
I wonder what ridership projections would look like for those four or five stations, assuming relatively fast service along the corridor?
Erik’s list of five (OHSU, Hillsdale, Multnomah VIllage, Barbur TC, PCC Sylvania) sounds pretty good. I might drop Barbur Transit Center, though, if most the buses that serve it can connect to MAX at PCC and/or Multnomah Village.
I’d agree that Barbur TC is hardly a town/regional center worth a stop…except that if you draw a straight line from Multnomah Village to PCC Sylvania, it goes through Barbur TC anyways. Since it’s an established (and popular) transit access point, why not stick a stop there… It would make an excellent center to start installing sidewalks/bike paths and improving streets within a one-mile radius (that has at least two schools in the area, plus a cluster of businesses that could benefit from creating a center of sorts).
Wait…PBOT and ODOT and TriMet could do all that today, sans light rail. Why aren’t they?
Also…the “yellow line” designation makes a lot of sense for Interstate and Barbur.
After all, both Interstate and Barbur are historically part of U.S. Highway 99W.
Operationally it may not be…but what comes first – TriMet’s operational convenience, or the people who ride the system?
That makes some sense Erik. Maybe MLR makes more sense as the Green line. But until Barbur opens, I think the yellow line makes more sense for MLR. It’s already the line with the least going on, and runs north/south. Too bad changing colors later would probably confuse people. As the system here gets more built out, you’d think maybe at some point they’d perhaps start separating the routes/destinations from the alignments/colors more so they could willy-nilly change things up more easily. I’m not really sure what I’m getting at though.
Personally I hate the idea of using the same designation through downtown – I hate it even on buses. Especially since TriMet eliminated the split designation of interlined routes, so the 12 line is now the Barbur/Sandy. Bus stop signs in Tigard say “To Gresham” which is absolutely a disservice to the average new rider who has no interest in going clear across town; timetables are huge (and timepoints have had to be reduced) and the maps are useless.
Seattle does it right – routes don’t continue through downtown, but the timetables will indicate which route a particular trip will become as it passes through downtown. So they still interline bus trips, but the route “ends” in downtown. The bus simply drives onto a new route.
Getting back to MAX…frankly the Yellow/Green Line operation is good. Train enters downtown as a Yellow Line, and then it leaves as a Green Line – even though it’s the same train. The Blue Line should be split into two distinct routes – the Red Line should “end” in Portland, but certain trips/trains would continue as a Blue (or whatever color) Line train to Beaverton or Hillsboro.
That seems to be more confusing. It’s easy for people to look at a map, find the colored line they need, and get on that train when it comes.
Are there any rail transit system that change colors on every line that travels through downtown?
London Tube:
http://www.bulgarianlondon.com/bg_lon/bg/images/tube_map.gif
DC Metro:
http://www.dcmetromap.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/dc-metro-map2.jpg
Believe it or not, Barbur Transit Center is a town center (West Portland). There is NOTHING around there except the transit center as far as anything unique or a landmark. Unless you consider the 5th McDonalds on Barbur and 7th Starbucks. And yet Multnomah Village is not a Town Center which I find puzzling.
I couldnt agree more on the tunnel option, and the stations of OHSU, Hillsdale, Multnomah Village, Barbur TC and PCC Sylvania as well as the flaws with a Barbur surface alignment. There is nothing existing to work with on Barbur, its mile after mile of autocentric sprawl. Interstate Ave there is much more to work with as far as existing conditions and yet Interstate is still an uphill climb for redevelopment.
I’d agree that Barbur TC is hardly a town/regional center worth a stop…except that if you draw a straight line from Multnomah Village to PCC Sylvania, it goes through Barbur TC anyways. Since it’s an established (and popular) transit access point, why not stick a stop there
If this was a surface line, it would be an obvious station. As an underground station, it would probably cost north of $60 million to build. I think when it comes to tunnels, there should be a strong presumption against building a station unless there’s very clear utility to it. Barbur Transit Center offers a park & ride lot and a few transfer opportunities, and very little else right now.
Barbur Transit Center connects 12, 64, 94 and 94, with 43 and 44 close by. 44 already serves PCC and Multnomah Village. 64 would probably disappear with MAX to OHSU (and it passes through Multnomah Village anyway, so there’s a connection there even if it stays). 12 would connect to MAX at Tigard TC and downtown. 94 is a peak-hour express bus that probably doesn’t need a MAX connection.
That leaves only 43 that wouldn’t be served by MAX — and it potentially could be re-routed to Multnomah Village (leaving Taylor’s Ferry Road to travel along Capitol Highway, Multnomah Boulevard, and SW 19th Avenue), with a new bus line added from downtown to PCC via the Macadam corridor.
Of course, by that yardstick, I don’t know if Multnomah Village would work really well for an expensive underground station either. Personally, I’d like one because I actually go to Multnomah Village to shop and dine from time to time, but I don’t know what it’s trip generation potential would be.
But I see no reason for most people to go to Barbur Transit Center EVER except to park-and-ride or change buses.
I suspect that much of the Barbur TC’s business additionally consists of:
* SMART 2X riders connecting to the 12 going downtown
* Persons trying to reach PCC and transferring to the 44.
Were a MAX line built from downtown to Tigard, my suspicion is that the 2X would end there and no longer continue to Barbur; and we’re already assuming that PCC gets served directly.
…and with I-5 on one side of it, building MAX would repeat the mistakes of the Green Line
Green Line is one of those prime damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don’t situations — if it had been built along 82nd Ave instead, many would be complaining about how slow it is (much like the criticisms leveled at the Yellow Line routing).
An underground station would make more sense for Hillsdale than Multnomah Village; Hillsdale is already fairly dense and boasts a popular farmers market, library, etc.
Barbur Blvd TC could be remade into a “town center” concept rather easily. The area is already poorly accessible for pedestrians and bikes and while some improvements can be made, other streets will be difficult to improve.
Barbur Blvd TC could easily turn into a hub of sorts for neighborhood routes – even demand-responsive bus service – that would serve an area roughly 1.75 miles in diameter, allowing neighborhood vans to connect to mainline services whether it be MAX, the 12 bus, the 44 bus, whatever.
The 1, 38, 39 and 45 buses all operate in this area but are generally poor performers because they are downtown-centric, aren’t regularly operated, and don’t connect to the service businesses that are on Barbur Boulevard. Just try to use the 39 bus to get to the Safeway – it’s a long walk requiring two crossings of a busy intersection. But, what if we took the flexibility of a LIFT bus (door to door service), the ridership of an area that is willing to try transit, and the connectivity of mainline buses – you have vans that are cost effective to operate (much cheaper than LIFT service), plus convenient transfers to other services.
When you get more people to the transit center by connecting bus, you reduce the need for the parking lot. Thus, small business development. Ta da.
An underground station would make more sense for Hillsdale than Multnomah Village; Hillsdale is already fairly dense and boasts a popular farmers market, library, etc.
And Multnomah Village owes its entire existence to the Oregon Electric Railway, has a very thriving “downtown” area, numerous businesses, a popular community center, the region’s post office…
Of course my grand pre-WES idea was to build a surface MAX line on the old OE alignment (Multnomah Boulevard), with an underground segment underneath Washington Square, back to surface, use the OE through Tigard and end at Tualatin. This would use an old railroad right-of-way, provide service again to transit-friendly destinations, improve service to the Washington Square Regional Center – and it would be immensely better than the crap we have today (WES).
Now the MAX surface option using the OE is lost, because of development in the western edge of Tualatin that would have been needed to tie the active freight train service on the OE from Wilsonville with the existing Newberg Branch along Herman Road. And of course the $166 million that we pissed in the wind called WES that sits idle while traffic on Highway 217 backs up during the middle of each workday and again on Saturdays and Sundays.
The park and ride at Barbur TC would be important as SW isnt a great place for walking, biking or transit by design due to topography, street network and lack of sidewalks. Parking will be needed at one of the stations to serve SW via auto connections. The business districts of Multnomah Village and Hillsdale are not the place for park & rides. All the urban design in the world isnt going to transform Barbur TC into a great place. Barbur TC is by the freeway anyway so its already got that negative for TOD/walkability yet positive for a park & ride of easy access. Barbur TC could also add a bus station directly on I-5 (much like those you see on the express bus network in Seattle) to serve the 96, 2X, additional SW region express service and perhaps Greyhound serving points south.
I’d surface the tunnel at Barbur TC and have it run on the surface up Capitol to PCC. You may need a little tunnel due to topography to get it from PCC back down to Barbur near the city border enroute to Tigard.
Dan W, Hillsdale is more autocentric than Multnomah Village. But either way with LRT, these would be prime places for mixed use urban infill and to become even more walkable business districts and it wouldnt take any push for developers to recognize the potential in either of these places on their own. This is where TOD works naturally.
One other wrinkle on whether an underground SW Corridor line would need a stop at Barbur TC:
Do we want to have a park-and-ride on the line?
OHSU, PCC, Hillsdale, and Multnomah are not likely candidates for a P&R due to a combination of either unsuitable geography, poor highway access, or existing urban uses. Likewise for Tigard TC, to a lesser extent; in addition, Tigard lies outside the I-5 catchment area. Barbur TC already has a P&R, and is near the intersection of two main highways.
While many here may not consider a park-and-ride to be an important concern; I can all but assure you that TriMet does; a LRT line won’t be built without some place for the I-ain’t-gonna-ride-no-bus crowd to park their SUV so they can catch the train into work.
Another question would be what to do with the #12 if MAX tunnels and deviates completely from the #12’s existing route. It would seem that the #12 would remain, although at a reduced level. Would anyone still use the Barbur P&R at that point?
I’d expect #12 to stay as is if MAX goes underground. We’ll still need frequent bus service on that corridor, since #12 goes out to King City and Sherwood — well past Tigard TC.
I expect that the new MAX line would gain some ridership from a park & ride. And I accept that Tri-Met will want one, despite the massive trip generation potential of OHSU and PCC, and the numerous transfer opportunities at Hillsdale and Tigard TC. But if the station were to cost, say, $60 million, would it make sense to build it to serve 368 parking spaces? Particularly if it cost substantially less to build a 1000 space parking structure somewhere along the line in Tigard to keep the anti-bus SUV contingent happy?