Duin Takes on CRC Design


Steve Duin’s Thursday column in the O blasts the Columbia River Crossing design. Among other things he quotes members of the project design advisory committee who have figured out that like other citizens trying to influence the project, they’re there for window dressing, not to actually change the DOTs’ agenda:

Jeff Stuhr at Holst Architecture has also sat through this two-year charade and admits, “It’s been painful to watch.” Tedious wrangling over lanes and interchanges is the rage. “My big fear,” Stuhr said, “is we’ll never do any design work.”

But my favorite quote comes from Metro President David Bragdon:

But the most daunting constraint, notes Metro Council President David Bragdon, “is the restriction on the imagination of the two state Departments of Transportation.

“You have two DOTs that are just driven to build huge slabs of concrete. That’s what they do. That’s what they’ve done for the last 40 years. They engineer the biggest, baddest thing they can, and think about the design later, the budget later, the community impacts later.”

Amen, brother!


21 responses to “Duin Takes on CRC Design”

  1. Since you clearly aren’t in favor of handling Portland (metro) growth, might I suggest you pack up and move to Idaho?

  2. Since you clearly aren’t in favor of handling Portland (metro) growth, might I suggest you pack up and move to Idaho?

    We don’t tell people we disagree with to move out-of-state at this web site.

    In any case, to whom were you referring? Chris, who posted the blog entry? Duin, the columnist? Stuhr, the architect? Bragdon, the Metro Council president?

    I ask that you please entertain the idea that those who criticize the mega-bridge project are not anti-growth … rather they feel there are better and more cost-effective ways to handle that growth.

    Thanks so much.

  3. To get on my favorite hobby horse of the Western Arterial Route as an alternative to the CRC proposal to replace the I-5 bridges:

    Today I examined the difference in miles from the same point in Vancouver to the intersection of US 26 and Cornelius Pass Rd. 1. Via Interstate 5, into central Portland (either on I-405 or on the Marquam Bridge) and then out US 26 was about 20 miles. 2.The other path—impossible to completely drive at this time–would be south on the rail corridor, then Columbia Bv west, then across the Willamette, up Newberry Rd and linking to Cornelius Pass Rd— was 15 miles. With nice scenery besides. Newberry Rd, has some curves but no switchbacks or hairpin turns, but could be straightened every easily. There were no houses close to the road at any point. Most of it was very easy to drive—and the openness of the land would suit it for a bicycle path, too. There is also a path up that hillside to Skyline Rd, under the power lines.

    Skyline Rd and nearby Kaiser Rd also have easy connections to a number of the communities west of Sylvan Hill and north of 26. It’s something to think about—- when US 26 is crawling along at rush hour.

  4. It is a Great Column , and hits on the Design problem we have as a society. We let engineers with no aesthetic training or experience draw up our most visible works. If it gets big enough they bring in some unknown firm to ‘Pretty it up’
    weee …. mosaics and toy windmills…
    The Romans would never do this poor of a job , because they knew that public works were the face of the society.
    With the given constraints , I believe we should put a vast low rise park roof on the bridge.
    The plant life of the park will capture the
    rain driven pollution runoff , eliminating costly treatment facilities , thus paying for itself over time.

  5. My idea on the Western Arterial Bridge (which eleiminates 5 miles from a Vancouver to West Union trip) would be a double tied arch. That would be like two, smaller versions of the Fremont bridge in line. These can be adorned with decorative features. The Yaquina Bay Bridge is an example of a beautiful through arch with supporting arches for the remainder. The Siuslaw River Bridge also on 101 has two through arches, but since it is low clearance it also has a center lift span.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YaquinaBayBridge1.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SuislawRiverBridgeNE.jpg

    Using something like the Yaquina Bay Bridge, with two arches, I would have the center pier accessible from the pedestrian paths with a recreational and fishing level close to the water, via a stairway. What’s not to like about this idea?

  6. Don’t blame the engineers–they’re just doing their job. Engineers are primarily concerned with the structural aspects of design; you give them constrains and they will produce designs. Embellishments to a design which are aesthetic in nature are out of scope.

    If you think the bridge designs are ugly, the project stakeholders are who you ought to gripe to.

    One thing that has changed over the course of a century, is that improvements in fabrication techniques, materials science, and the science of civil engineering, now permits “simple” designs to span larger and larger distances, distances which previously required things such as arches or suspension bridges. The simpler designs are more cost-effective, and require less vertical clearance than hanging from the bridge from an arch or suspension system.

    However, many consider the older approaches more aesthetically pleasing.

    The Romans were largely building bridges out of stone and masonry–steel was unknown to them. Arches were the only reasonable construction technique available to them.

  7. The problem with the Western Arterial route is it doesn’t go where it needs to go. For that route to be an effective replacement to the Interstate bridge, you would need massive improvements to either US-30 or US-26.

  8. “An effective replacement to the Interstate Bridge”???

    I see no reason to get rid of the present Interstate Bridges. Do you mean as an alternative to the 12 lane bridge? If so, please bear in mind that building a twelve lane bridge there, without dispersing the north south travel demand to other routes—will only be the first domino needed to fall to make that plan work. The next and bigger one is major improvements to I-5 through the rest of Portland, How expensive would that be? Have you ever heard of the Freeway Loop Study?

  9. Scotty, I respectfully disagree. It is actually possible for engineers to possess skills beyond simple technical knowledge, and incorporate these into their designs. Take Conde McCullough, who understood the importance to people of building things that are both functional and beautiful.

    Many modern roadway engineers (and architects, for that matter) choose ignorance. It is no coincidence that the most ignorant of roadway engineers often choose to work for state DOTs across the country. This is the only place they can thoughtlessly design things with near-total insulation from any consequences, since they generally leave town after their project is done (on to the next state job). It is the community who is left to pick up the pieces. We’ve seen this repeated thousands of times since the dawn of the American freeway age.

    I happen to think that Oregon DOT is ahead of the curve in this regard, with some engineers that are exceptional. Perhaps because WSDOT is driving the process, perhaps not, this project certainly is nothing to be the least bit proud of. As an engineer, I find it downright embarrassing to the profession.

  10. I am surprised that WSDOT would be jerking out such garbage. I always assumed they had more money and thus better engineers. I hope all this handwringing will just force the project to stop. It is like a huge ship. It takes a long time to stop, but it will, just as sure as the Titanic. If the public were presented with all the options, even if said 12 lanes were mandated, but presented with attractive alternatives that exceeded hight limitations for Pearson, they would choose the best looking. I think “stakeholders” are simply to preoccupied with having cake and eating it. something will be sacrificed.

  11. Why design something that is not allowed? As long as Pearson Airpark is there, the FAA calls the height limit on the bridge. There is no way they would allow the current bridge to be there. I really wish there was a way to do it as this could be a landmark bridge. Having said that, I thought the Oregonian pix last week were better than what I envisioned from the hi-elevation look on the original version. While the road noise of riding a bike or walking under the car deck would not be pleasant (think Rose Qtr station for the Red/Blue lines), perhaps some extra engineering could be applied to make it less noisy without costing too much. And it would be protected from the vertical rain.

    A new 12-lane bridge would allow people to use the other arterials to get to the bridge instead of going to I-5 way up or downstream to get on the mainline. SR-14 easily provides a lane of traffic as would Marine Drive and MLK. SR 500 generates another lane. Hayden Island is another lane. The interchange redesign there would dramatically improve life on the island and how everyone else gets to and from it – for the better.

    A ten lane bridge might do the trick as well, but 12 would allow for better flow in the area where huge numbers of people are getting on and off the freeway.

  12. Brad, it’s not just Pearson but PDX as well. Many of the urban height limits in downtown Vancouver are in place because of PDX flight paths, Pearson is just another problem for height limits in that area.

  13. “Brad, it’s not just Pearson but PDX as well. Many of the urban height limits in downtown Vancouver are in place because of PDX flight paths, Pearson is just another problem for height limits in that area.”

    It’s actually more complex than that.

    You have a minimum river clearance required by the US Coast Guard too. I believe I read somewhere that maximum height – minimum clearance is somewhere less than 75 feet.

    75 feet to fit in your roadbed, mass transit track and caternary, lighting, signage, and load bearing superstructure.

    This is hardly a case of just slapping together some design and giving it a thumbs up.

  14. David Bragdon wrote: You have two DOTs that are just driven to build huge slabs of concrete. That’s what they do. That’s what they’ve done for the last 40 years. They engineer the biggest, baddest thing they can, and think about the design later, the budget later, the community impacts later.

    Pretty easy to have an “imagination” when you work for an agency that doesn’t do anything other than shuffle paper, run three garbage stations, four mostly-empty entertainment venues, a bunch of closed cemetaries, and the Oregon Zoo (which is largely run independently of Metro, and has its own budget).

    For those of us that actually do something, we have constraints like budgets and real life to worry about. Come join us, Mr. Bragdon. Maybe when you DON’T have a blank check, you’ll see what it’s like for us who can’t afford big penthouse mansions, expensive toy cars, and taxpayer trips to Europe on a whim.

  15. Pretty easy to have an “imagination” when you work for an agency that doesn’t do anything other than shuffle paper,

    and

    For those of us that actually do something,

    [Moderator: Erik, cut the crap. Don’t insult others in one thread and then immediately complain in another thread that someone has insulted you and demand comment deletion.]

  16. (drum roll please…..)
    I have a young guy doing some photoshop work for me that will depict our Third Bridge concept of what we think should be built over the Columbia. Should have it up tomorrow or the next day.

  17. [Moderator: Complaint about moderator action and alleged hypocrisy removed.]

    [PS… This comment never appeared originally due to badly formatted HTML.]

  18. I have a young guy doing some photoshop work for me that will depict our Third Bridge concept of what we think should be built over the Columbia. Should have it up tomorrow or the next day.

    Are you following the constraints of the height requirements set by the FAA and Coast Guard? I’m interested to see what could fit in there.

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