Updated: 02/09/2009
Here’s the presentation (PDF, 1.6M) given to TriMet’s Board of Directors on the topic…
Original Post: 01/28/2009
Earlier today the TriMet Board received a briefing on Fareless Square choices to coincide with the September opening of the Green Line. My understanding is that this is the beginning of a public process that TriMet will be conducting.
While I have not yet seen the presentation materials from the meeting, they were based in part on this consultant’s report (PDF, 816K). Based on the report and buzz around town, the smart money is on a recommendation to limit Fareless Square to rail only.
This will set up an interesting choice for Streetcar when the Loop opens in 2011. If Streetcar stays with TriMet fare policy, half the loop would be fareless and half would be a Zone 1-2 fare. This hardly seems equitable and Streetcar is going to have to take a hard look at this.
I’m sure this topic is going to get a LOT of discussion in the next few months. Stay tuned.
69 responses to “Wither Fareless Square?”
I’m completely against Fareless Square for rail only. JK’s “toy train” and Erik’s stances aside, there a few reasons:
1 – There is little to no fare enforcement on current MAX trains. MAX riders are very likely to be making a longer trip than a bus rider and the door is opened to fare evasion.
2 – Frequencies of Green Line MAX won’t match that of the sum of buses on the transit mall. This means that if I want to hop to the north/south end of downtown (say, to/from PSU’s new rec center to the food cart mall on Stark), my wait for a bus will almost always be minimal even in non-peak hours. Because I’ll only be on for a few minutes, comfort, quality of ride, or even crush factor of the bus really aren’t a consideration.
I think the yellow line is going to be re-routed along the transit mall as well which should increase frequencies, but nothing is going to compare to the frequency of the sum of the buses. My guess is that most people who don’t use transit regularly will end up waiting for the train over the bus anyway. As someone who gets car-sick I certainly will.
consultant’s report
Where did you get a copy of that? I snagged a paper version because I went to the Board Meeting. I haven’t read it, but my issue (and I mentioned it to some people at the meeting) on rail-only fareless is that it would not be possible to get a free ride down Everett Street or Coloumbia/Jefferson.
beginning of a public process that TriMet will be conducting.
I believe you’re correct there. I’m pretty sure that there are going to be open houses next month about the issue and others.
half the loop would be fareless and half would be a Zone 1-2 fare
How is that different than today?
There is little to no fare enforcement on current MAX trains
I’m confused how this is a reason for NOT making fareless rides rail-only. Considering how rail fare enforcement is random and does not require everyone to be checked as they enter, there isn’t an enforcement opportunity that is being given up. Versus on the bus, except for special operations, fare enforcement (OK, fare checking) is done at time of boarding, and to be effective requires operators to keep track of who in the half-fareless, half-paid crowd hasn’t paid.
IOW, fareless rides are suited to rail because its just a matter of having inspectors only check fares outside of Fareless Square. And inspectors should be better able to confront violators than bus operators. In addition, trains can handle the extra, fareless riders better because of the multiple, wide doors and higher capacity.
Frequencies of Green Line MAX
Besides the rerouted Yellow Line, there’s also talk of having mall-only “shuttle” trains. Overall, taking a bus will require a person to figure out which stop it stops at and might be slower because trains will always go first. They will get to make buses in the center lane wait while they pull out ahead of them from stops, and make buses in the right lane at stops wait while they (and other buses) go past.
Oh, and here’s The Oregonian article about it from today
Where did you get a copy of that? [consultant’s report]
I requested an electronic copy from TriMet.
half the loop would be fareless and half would be a Zone 1-2 fare – How is that different than today?
Today most of Streetcar is inside fareless square. When we are offering a “loop circulator” it’s hard to make the argument that the west half and east half should be treated differently.
We need to get rid of the entire fare system, including the fare free zone, and charge a flat rate per boarding… say $1
MAX should be slightly more expensive because its a “premium” service.
Get rid of fareless square! There’s nothing free in life.
Speaking of fare less square, here is our very own
JASON BARBOUR attending the meeting where this was discussed. (picture by the other Jason edited by me)
http://rantingsofatrimetbusdriver.blogspot.com/2009/01/transit-enthusiast-and-all-around-nice.html
And if they are going to be talking about service cuts, the first thing to cut is free service!
(aka fare less square)
You guys miss the point part of the reason of fareless square is tourism as well as not charging someone for a few blocks of transportation. The fares all over the rest of the city have steadily been rising. As for no enforcement: I don’t know where you’re riding (besides fareless square) but I know lots of check points (granted there seem to be more heading towards Beaverton to help dissuade folks from heading to those burbs) but North Portland seems to always have someone checking fares (again this is targeting a specific low income demo.) Which brings me to my point, for many of us struggling to make end meet, our public transportation costs are really affecting how and when we use the system. At $2 for a 2 zone it’s already more than a tank of gas. How is this supposed to encourage ridership?
Frequencies of Green Line MAX won’t match that of the sum of buses on the transit mall. This means that if I want to hop to the north/south end of downtown (say, to/from PSU’s new rec center to the food cart mall on Stark), my wait for a bus will almost always be minimal even in non-peak hours. Because I’ll only be on for a few minutes, comfort, quality of ride, or even crush factor of the bus really aren’t a consideration.
The combination of Green and Yellow line trains will bring peak hour frequency to something like 5 minutes; if a circulator train can be added, it would be even quicker. And remember that the trains will run all the way from PSU to Union Station, so you will never have to consider whether your bus might be turning off the Mall before your destination.
I believe you’re correct there. I’m pretty sure that there are going to be open houses next month about the issue and others.
I now can’t seem to find it anywhere on TriMet’s website (open note: if the info. was pulled from the website because it’s being revised, please do contact Portland Transport so they can remove erroneous material), but here’s what I wrote down earlier this month:
Wed., Feb. 11th at PSU Smith Building, Room 294, 11 AM-1 PM
Thu., Feb. 12th at Portland Building, Room C, 4-6 PM
Fri., Feb. 13th at State of Oregon Building (800 NE Oregon St., in Lloyd District), Room 1B, 11 AM-1 PM
One other problem with limiting fareless trips to rail is that it will be useless for someone who wants to go (on the mall) from halfway between two rail stations to halfway between two other stations. But they might be at a bus stop that has buses going to the exact block that they want to get to.
if a circulator train can be added
The Portland Mall site says that “MAX trains serving the Mall will run every five minutes throughout the day. Trains will loop the Mall, ensuring MAX is always within sight during most of the day.”
Jason, that information should be correct. At least, that’s the last I heard. No idea why it’s disappeared from the website, but perhaps some other verbiage is being edited.
*sigh*
Every time I try downloading/opening the PDF report (either from TriMet’s website or here), I get an error message that “the file is damaged and cannot be repaired.”
I haven’t read the report yet, but, off the top of my head, the rail-only option for Fareless Square seems to have two serious problems:
1. Substantially reduced frequency (i.e., longer waits) and greater distance between stops (i.e., longer walks to destinations) on the Transit Mall. Virtually every study ever done of mass transit shows that wait-times and walking distance are key determinants of transit utilization. These changes would be particularly significant for elderly and mobility-impaired transit users.
2. Inadequate East-West transportation. While MAX trains on Yamhill and Morrison provide East-West connections at the center of downtown and while the Streetcar provides a partial East-West connection at the South end of downtown, there would no longer be any free East-West connection North of Morrison in the Central City. [One solution might be to designate the ’20-Burnside’ a frequent-service line, paint it a distinctive color, and allow it to be the sole Trimet bus that is free within Fareless Square.] Also, since the Streetcar is run by a separate entity from Trimet and therefore may or may not decide to continue to operate free within Fareless Square, there would be no guarantee, under the Trimet proposal, of an East-West connection South of Yamhill either.
Every time I try downloading/opening the PDF report (either from TriMet’s website or here), I get an error message
I just retested and it was fine, so I don’t think it’s the file or server…
Ironically, encouraging people to use MAX as a streetcar circulator downtown is the opposite of calls to remove MAX stops so that it can function as a faster express service through the city (or running it in a tunnel downtown).
MRB wrote: Erik’s stances aside
Well after two days I guess I better say something…
The whole concept of reviewing Fareless Square came directly after a “surge” of incidents occurring on the eastside MAX line out in Rockwood/Gresham.
The “solutions” proposed by TriMet have nothing to do with the “problems” (whether they are really problems or not is another debate, but clearly public perception at the time said it was), and even TriMet’s Caroline Young admits, as quoted in The Oregonian:
“There’s no group saying ‘eliminate Fareless
So this is a solution to what problem?
Getting beyond that, the “solutions” become…well…typical TriMet:
Make Fareless MAX-only
Another slap to bus riders. Why do MAX riders get a free ride, especially when TriMet elsewhere admits that fare evasion is a much larger problem on MAX than on the bus?
End Fareless at NE 7th
The last few times I checked, Lloyd Center did a pretty good job during the week of closing off the theater parking lot to prevent park-and-ride use. (On weekends is another story.) My problem with THAT station has nothing to do with the parking lot, it’s the continual “criminal element” that has returned and plagues the stop. TriMet eliminated the “criminal element” at Old Town by placing the security office there. Now the Old Town stop is effectively dead and deserted (at least the ‘bad guys’ don’t hang out there) but Lloyd/13th is not a fun place to hang out at.
Reduced Fare Zone
I think Al M. says it best. One of the arguments for eliminate fareless bus rides is to remove conflicts with Operators. So now we’re going to create an entirely new fare zone/structure? So these downtown short-hoppers get transfers too? What’s to prevent them from paying a buck and staying on to Beaverton?
I propose a few options:
1. Do nothing. It’s not a problem, so why fix it? TriMet’s Board/General Manager need to concentrate on the real problems affecting TriMet today. (Just yesterday I had a bus that had a major mechanical problem that shouldn’t have been on the road, the bus Operator ran a red light for no reason, he passed up a rider for no reason at a very well designated stop, and he overshot my stop. What gives?) For the last two weeks, my afternoon 12 bus has been on average 15-20 minutes LATE. And MAX ticket vending machines continue to be a problem. Frankly, this is the best option, and TriMet ought to be ashamed of itself for tying itself up dealing with a non-issue while ignoring real issues that TriMet riders have been complaining about for years (let’s start with http://www.trimetdown.com)
2. Eliminate Fareless Square. Just do away with it and be done; it eliminates the “unfair subsidy” question. Tourists don’t “need” a free ride, they can pay for a day pass just as I do when I’m visiting Seattle or Los Angeles. Else POVA can pay for “tourist passes” to give to hotel and convention guests.
3. Create a “free” circulator bus. Similar to Seattle’s 99 Waterfront “Streetcar” line, it would be a specially designated free bus that makes a circular route through downtown. It would not be particularly fast or direct but it would serve destinations that visitors would use (it would also replace the OMSI shuttle, and possibly part of the 63 or 73 routes.) The buses would be painted in a different scheme and would advertise that it’s a “fare free” bus.
4. Limit Fareless hours. Seattle’s Fareless Square is only in operation 6:00 AM-7:00 PM. If the point of Fareless Square is for “tourists” why not make it Saturdays/Sundays only, and maybe during the day from 10:00 AM-3:00 PM (exclude the rush hours) for the lunchtime crowd? This, however, introduces new complication as TriMet’s fare system currently is not time-limited (whereas Seattle has a peak-hour surcharge.)
Fareless Square should be totally eliminated including busses, Max and streetcars. TriMet needs to become more financially self-sustainable. Eliminating Fareless Square entirely will be a big step in eliminating fare evasion. Downtown Portland is receiving a special privilege other town centers and neighborhoods do not receive. Besides, downtown Portland is one of those highly touted 20 minute walk able communities and therefore does not need this kind of taxpayer subsidy.
Every time I try downloading/opening the PDF report (either from TriMet’s website or here), I get an error message
I just retested and it was fine, so I don’t think it’s the file or server…
Nah, it was my computer… the file simply doesn’t like Adobe 5.x (might be 5.5) on 98 SE. It loads just fine on the same computer when I use a linux live CD with a PDF viewer. Way past time for me to upgrade!
“Portland is one of those highly touted 20 minute walk able communities and therefore does not need this kind of taxpayer subsidy.”
I definitely agree. Instead of hopping on the MAX or streetcar for shorter inter-city commuting, I just walk. It’s pretty easy to, especially with the smaller, 200 foot blocks in Portland.
People who would be coming from outside downtown area are not benefiting much from the fareless square (the “square” is really not that large). $1 flat-fee sounds very reasonable, even if you’re staying at a hotel or whatever across the river.
Having a mass transit system as good as ours that would only cost $1 in the downtown is “socially just”, if you ask me. If you can’t pay that, then maybe they could have special passes for the indigent.
And an additional note, having a fare charge will bring people who view the MAX as “unsafe” (which is completely hysterical because you’re much more likely to get killed in your automobile) to ride more.
I can barely discuss this topic anymore so I will copy and paste my entry from another blog.
If Portland is too have a fare less square, THEN EVERY SINGLE CITY WITHIN THE DISTRICT NEEDS TO HAVE ONE!
Fred Hansen is cutting services county wide, yet we have people, who are getting something for nothing, that think they should continue to get something for nothing, while the rest of the TRIMET service area PAYS through the nose to ride TRIMET.
EITHER MAKE THE WHOLE THING FARE LESS OR NONE OF IT FARE LESS.
I don’t know why any city within the Trimet district other than Portland stays in the district.
All the cities except Portland should pull out of TRIMET.
Make the name of the agency what it actually is;
PORTLAND TRANSIT.
Let the rest of the service area have its own district.
This btw is an excellent example of how GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENTS are virtually impossible to stop once they are started.
This fare less square has created a WHOLE CLASS of people who are now dependent on it.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but we live in a region. It does not serve the people of the region well if we have different agencies operating against one another.
In regards to certain areas not receiving as good of service as Portland; it can be stated that it is more expensive to service the outlying areas with quality transit, especially with bus service, which is expensive on a per passenger basis.
LR may have a higher initial cost, but buses also are not having to pay anything for the roads they ride on or their maintenance.
I always find that those on the “fringe” of the city have the most qualms about the transit service of tri-met:
a) they point to the fact that transit sucks in their given area, even though their land-use is not conducive to transit.
b) they don’t want to pay for light rail, as they do not ride it much.
I simply think people complain too much about the quality planning that occurs in the metro area. I’d dare anyone to live outside the area and come back and not be impressed with how nice everything is.
“We need to get rid of the entire fare system, including the fare free zone, and charge a flat rate per boarding… say $1
MAX should be slightly more expensive because its a “premium” service.”
Technically MAX is cheaper in fareless to operate than buses, so it doesn’t make any sense to make it more expensive. I do however agree that all fares SHOULD be a plain flat buck or two and get rid of the whole transfer and all the crap that gets confusing. I simplify my ride by having a month pass, but it would be a lot better if a flat fare across the board was applied, it would drastically simplify pretty much the whole thing. It would also simplify the stupid situation that comes up when a bus driver tells a “transfer” they can’t board because it is wrong and they get assaulted or some other ruckus starts.
You guys miss the point part of the reason of fareless square is tourism as well as not charging someone for a few blocks of transportation.
I’m not missing the point. I want fares to go up across the board, I’d rather a flat fare, but I’d be more than happy to pay a higher fare or a flat one at even 5-10% higher. If I could get the taxes back that I get taken away from me every year that theoretically would go to transportation and such, I’d be more than happy to pay the full price of the transportation cost, such as a good solid $4-8 bucks a ride. Whatever the case, fareless should die already.
Much of the city wants rid of it, but they’re part of the silent majority, working away downtown not caring a bit about fareless. Many that end up paying for it with their taxes get passes anyway. In addition to that, who the hell ingrained such a horrid entitlement mentality in some Portlanders? It seems like everytime there is a problem and they want to get rid of it every single mooch in the city comes out to whine about it.
Erik’s point. I agree 100% with the #2 solution.
I gotta point out too, barely a single tourist rides any of the buses. They take transit, if any at all, from the airport to downtown. Done – that’s the majority of them. They don’t go riding around the city everywhere on buses. Many of the dastardly tourists go rent cars or, heaven forbid, the stupids DRIVE here!!! I don’t know what gives them the idea to do that.
So for the argument that fareless enables people like tourists, that BS. Fareless mostly enables a LARGE element of undesirables to roam around and do annoying things like deal drugs, shoot people, harass beautiful women, annoy shoppers, ramble on about being homeless and begging for money, and a number of other reasons.
Seriously, please just get rid of the fareless square. It’s not doing the city any good, and if anything the extra money generated might help prevent service cuts that Fred Hanson has proposed.
How about that, we worry about service levels first, and stupid mess like fareless takes a back seat.
Bravo Adron, BRAVO!
A masterpiece of literature!
Here’s my fare concept:
~$3.00 premium fare. Gets you on everything.
~$2.00 standard fare. Gets you on everything but WES and express buses.
~$.50-$1.00 local fare. Implemented in regional centers with good transit networks. The most obvious being central city Portland, including the Inner Eastside, NW and Goose Hollow. Something between fareless square and the existing Zone 1. Other regional centers (e.g. Beaverton, Hillsboro, Gresham) would have their own local fare boundaries. Include all buses and rail.
Tickets/passes in 2-hour, day, multi-day and monthly flavors. Half-price-ish for “honored citizen” and youth. Work on increasing fare reciprocity with connecting providers.
This scheme is easier to understand and administer, and would encourage the additional development of local and express transit services in the places where it makes sense.
I gotta point out too, barely a single tourist rides any of the buses. They take transit, if any at all, from the airport to downtown. Done – that’s the majority of them. They don’t go riding around the city everywhere on buses. Many of the dastardly tourists go rent cars or, heaven forbid, the stupids DRIVE here!!! I don’t know what gives them the idea to do that.
Coming late to the discussion …
I run into tourists on MAX all the time, so I seriously doubt that “barely a single tourist” uses Tri-Met. I do expect they mostly stick to rail systems, just because those tend to be a lot easier to interpret than buses.
But I don’t think they should get a free ride; like Erik, I buy a day pass when I’m visiting some other city. I was just in NYC for the week, and bought a 7-day MetroCard that got me all over town. No reason tourists can’t buy day tickets to get around, particularly since day tickets are *cheap* compared to most systems — just a little more than a round-trip ride.
I’m in favor of abolishing Fareless Square along with the entire zone system, and just charging a flat rate per-ride. Preferably something that can be paid entirely in bills and quarters instead of forcing cash passengers to fish around for nickels.
Douglas K. Says:
I run into tourists on MAX all the time, so I seriously doubt that “barely a single tourist” uses Tri-Met. I do expect they mostly stick to rail systems, just because those tend to be a lot easier to interpret than buses.
Adron did specify “buses”, and I’m inclined to agree — except perhaps for Line 63. They use MAX and the Streetcar a lot, as far as I can observe, and that’s partly because MAX has a national profile and partly because it does a good job of serving tourist destinations.
Part of the argument in favor of Fareless, especially for MAX, is that it helps make up for the lack of a convention hotel. Visitors can stay downtown and have a simple, free ride to the Convention Center.
Oddly the events at the Oregon Convention Center usually are, for one reason or another, there because the other options are to skip the Portland market, or have it in Seattle. The Northwest doesn’t have many metropolitan convention centers.
There’s few events there that could both move and that would move over their attendees needing to pay to ride the MAX.
Check out http://www.oregoncc.org/calendar for a listing. Almost everything there already is a Northwest or Oregon group. They’re not going to leave Portland over a few MAX passes, since there are few other options that compare in the area anyway.
The lack of a Convention Center hotel holds us back from getting major conventions, eliminating Fareless Square isn’t going to change much. It might raise room rates at such hotel, but that’s probably about it.
My father used to use the buses to go from one end of Fareless Square to the other all the time, without knowing their routes. It really isn’t that hard: if they turn off 5th or 6th before your destination, you pull the string, get off, walk back a block or two, and get on another one…
Heh,
I just found this article after posting my own tweet that I am done riding the MAX in fareless until Trimet puts security in every passenger cabin.
I travel from Hillsboro to Hollywood. I pay my fare, both ways, crossing this area 4 times weekly.
The ride typically turns awful in Fareless Square. Problem: Downright scary or rude passenger behavior. At best, some of the behavior on MAX is merely obnoxious, but downtown is the worst of the worst.
It’s out of control and I simply won’t ride anymore. As far as I’m concerned, Trimet has turned the MAX into a transit ghetto inside Fareless Square. If they’re really courting the tourists, then they should care enough to provide ample security and enforce limits on behavior.
The predictable result of a downtown fare-free supervision-free zone is a behavioral free-for-all. Sorry, but I’m not interested in subjecting myself to that misery any further. I’ll sit on the Sunset and Banfield, instead.
Robb Topolski
Robb Topolski:“The ride typically turns awful in Fareless Square. Problem: Downright scary or rude passenger behavior. At best, some of the behavior on MAX is merely obnoxious, but downtown is the worst of the worst.”
ws:While I agree with your sentiments with fareless square and some passengers of the MAX; your fears are not really rooted or reasonable.
Afterall, it’s more likely that you would get killed or injured in a car than the MAX.
Also, the very road you are proposing to drive on had a road rage incident not too long ago where a driver was shot:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/9104506.html
I can only imagine if something similar like this happened on Tri-Met. This incident received very little fan-fare or blame placed (maybe we should blame ODOT!). We all know what people would be saying if it happened on the MAX, I and I do not understand people’s unfair logic that they apply to mass transit vs. automobiles.
Just to put things into perspective a little, even though I agree with your general sentiments.
After looking at that presentation …
Why not use the money spent on making the whole area “fareless” to pay for three “free” rail lines.
(1) Mall Circulator: A MAX train that loops from Union Station to PSU every 12 to 15 minutes.
(2) Lloyd Shuttle: A MAX train that runs from the spur on NE 11th at Holladay Park to the Galleria.
(3) Streetcar: Build a loop into the line allowing trains to turn back at 11th and Northrup. Create a second loop at PSU near the Transit Mall, or perhaps at River Place.
That’s it. Treat this as a separate transit system from Tri-Met for funding purposes, even if operations are contracted out to Tri-Met and/or Portland Streetcar. Acquire a few specific vehicles as “free” shuttles (including the Vintage Trolleys and maybe some restored vehicles from the Oregon Electric Railway Museum), give them distinctive paint jobs so they stand out from the other railcars,and call it done.
The ride typically turns awful in Fareless Square. Problem: Downright scary or rude passenger behavior.
That’s not an exaggeration. I just came back from a trip and rode the red line from the airport to PGE park, of course I filmed the whole thing. (available at youtube ‘portlandstransport’)
The whole ride (8pm last Friday)is fairly boisterous, but not dangerous. Riding max is not for the faint of heart in any event.
However, entering Fare less square brings a whole new level of rowdiness! On my train throngs of drunken loud mouth youths bar hopping, various street people riding aimlessly, other ‘weird’ sorts.
I found it interesting that they all got off at the end of fare less! At least the fare evasion actions have brought about change in behavior!
It’s time to say goodbye to this feel good government boondoggle.
They are about to cut service around the region.
One of the first cuts should be giveaways.
I bet FRED wants to dump fare less square but he has to deal with that 2 ton gorilla who is used to always getting his way.
Ya know who the gorilla is right?
P-O-R-T-L-A-N-D
Portland wants everything THEIR way.
Why care about Vancouver?
Why care about Beaverton?
Why care about Gresham?
Not Portland that’s for sure.
We’re so smart here.
We’re so green here.
Portland is heaven on earth.
Just ask Sam Adams.
What do people think of the idea being floated of limiting fareless hours?
Would a daytime-only fareless square prevent rowdy behavior at night, or would it have a side effect of causing an increase in drunk driving?
causing an increase in drunk driving
LOL!!LOL!!
Your developing quite a sense of humor Bob!
As I bus driver I can’t wait until fareless square comes to a halt. When the new transit mall comes on line max will give access North to South and East to West and over more area then any one bus line.
Fareless is not so fun at night for the drivers. I drove the last 20 through town last summer believe me you don’t want to know what is going on.
During the day it’s 100 times better but nights can just be out of hand.
you don’t want to know what is going on.
DAN!
We do want to know!
Tell us everything!
Al M
That was nice of you to get the presentation. I actually took pictures of it at the board meeting.
I know your disagreement with my position is a mild one. And I can understand that reasonable people can disagree on how much risk is too much…
ws: “While I agree with your sentiments with fareless square and some passengers of the MAX; your fears are not really rooted or reasonable.
Afterall, it’s more likely that you would get killed or injured in a car than the MAX.”
Robb Topolski: Sorry, my experience is that the probability of a peaceful ride through Fareless Square is already a tiny fraction and continues to decrease.
I’m a big guy, and I’m an ex-cop turned tech-geek. I have a rather imposing and commanding presence myself. I’m not one given to fear. In fact, I already am the type of passenger who will stare down the too-loud phone talker or politely ask the louder kids to quiet down a bit. Generally, they do.
But, through Fareless, it’s something roll-my-eyes miserable much of the time. Then this past Friday, three separate incidents — one that involved police at the Eastbound 3rd-4th Mall at about 1700 and on the westbound return ~2130 with the very-loud racially charged bullying and drunken filthy one-upmanship bragging about stabbing and crimes (with small children present.)
Injecting myself into that would just be unwise.
But it got me to thinking, and I realized the only reason I’m putting up with this at all is my sense of environmental improvement. But what are we trading for what? Cleaner air for noise and blood-pressure?
The MAX in Fareless Square is not a improved environment. It’s often a miserable, sometimes scary environment.
Personally, I don’t care about the “Fareless” part, just as long as its consequences are handled. I think the problem has more to do with lack of personnel in the cabin to enforce the rules on the trouble-makers. I think the free rides offer the notion that someone can misbehave because they have made no investment to be there: what’s the worst that can happen, they’re told to get off the free ride? (This doesn’t happen since Trimet’s uniformed personnel seems focused in areas outside of Fareless Square.)
Paid riders are hoping for a pleasant ride. Free riders have nothing to lose but the free ride, and currently there is little risk of losing that ride.
I’m still trying — I’ll still ride West-side MAX Tuesdays and Thursdays between Hillsboro and Goose Hollow, and take a bus from there to PSU (my daughter and I take a class together). But on Fridays and Sundays, I’m back behind the wheel until Trimet solves its security problem in Fareless Square.
PS: Clearly there are people here who have thought about these transit problems more than I have. I’m not as well informed or involved or invested as you all clearly are. This is just my story. Thanks.
Bob R: What do people think of the idea being floated of limiting fareless hours?
Would a daytime-only fareless square prevent rowdy behavior at night, or would it have a side effect of causing an increase in drunk driving?
I think the MAX stops service too early to really make a difference in drunk driving incidents. If you were planning a night out “partying,” would you use MAX? Most bars are dead until 10pm and don’t really get going until midnight. I’d have to leave before then to be home before service stops.
If there’s a drunk problem, are the intoxicated on MAX really coming from the bars? Or are they coming from the streets and private (underage) parties?
Either way, if MAX really is encouraged for the drinkers, then that’s yet another justification for better security presence in the cabins within Fareless Square. Otherwise, Trimet is just turning the MAX into an unsupervised place where people with a diminished capacity to care for themselves or others are being encouraged to go (and inflict themselves upon everyone else present).
My sense is that drunkenness is a minor fraction of the problem. I’ve only seen a few drunks on MAX, but nothing too bad or frequent. I’m usually off MAX by 11 p.m., however. My sense is that the problem is more an unbelievable narcissistic indifference towards others by some riders that is simply enabled by a lack of anyone to enforce the rules.
Robb:
I think you’re spot on with a lot of things, I was just pointing out for the casual readers that might succumb to the perception of fear, rather than actual fears.
I am more annoyed on the MAX than scared. However, I am also annoyed (and angry when I drive), so I always think of the bigger picture.
I think the MAX would and could attract more riders if it got rid of fareless square. Usually the argument is it will hinder riders, but I personally think it would add more ridership downtown.
I don’t know how fiscally responsible it is to add security on every train.
I’d urge you to write someone in the city, as it seems you do care about it and have benefited from the MAX.
I just thought you should all know that I brought a bunch of elected officials, high profile private sector executives and city department heads out last year for a tour of Downtown Portland. They all took MAX in from the airport and used the streetcar, buses and MAX to get around (within Fareless Square most of the time) during the entire trip and they RAVED about it. They liked it so much that many ask for something like it back in our Downtown.
Just a reminder that not everyone has a bad experience using transit in Portland…
I’ve been a daily MAX rider since the 1990s, and I use it repeatedly in Fareless Square, day and night. I’m not a big guy or an ex-cop. And I really can’t relate to the experience that Robb describes.
Sure, I see vagrants panhandling on MAX, and loud kids, but it very, very rarely rises to the level of “scary.” My own experience with the “worst of the worst” is that I roll my eyes and wonder what the hell kind of upbringing those kids had, and go back to my book. I tell the panhandlers “no” and they move on.
And it’s not a daily thing, either. It’s a once-in-a-while thing. Most of my experience on MAX (again, I stress, daily ridership for well over a decade) had been positive. A “peaceful ride through fareless square” occurs at least 95% of the time. I’d say it’s that way for most people; otherwise, we wouldn’t be dealing with crowded trains.
So I’m with ws; Rob’s fears don’t sound either rooted or reasonable given my own first-hand experience with the system.
I do favor abolishing Fareless Square, but it’s got nothing to do with safety or poor behavior by free riders. I believe that to attract new riders, the fare structure of transit needs to be as simple as possible. No zone system, one fare (preferably measured in dollars and quarters), ticket good for two hours until the stamped expiration time, and no free rides.
This is why I’d rather not have “daytime only” fareless hours. It creates one more level of complexity in accessing the system.
My suggestion above about creating a separate “free” system downtown with color-coded vehicles is intended to “keep it simple” if we really want a ride-free area. “Purple trains are free” is a pretty easy rule for even a first-time visitor to remember. The entire route would be a free ride area, and you certainly could shut it down at 8 p.m. or whatever if you’re just trying to serve daily shoppers and reduce auto traffic during business hours. “Purple trains are free during their hours of operation” is no different than “purple trains are free” from the perspective of a new rider.
NOBODY has a bad experience with TRIMET really.
This isn’t about good and bad, scary or safe!
This discussion is about SERVICE CUTS!
TRIMET is planning on cutting “low” productivity lines which means there will be people that will HAVE TO MOVE from where they live to another location.
All the while, TRIMET keeps raising fares!
So how in the world can anyone justify handing out FREE SERVICE to downtown Portland while no other city gets that consideration?
The fare less square STINKS!
Do the downtown businesses pay extra for the “free service”?
I kinda like the “purple train” idea, but see a couple of problems with it. Namely, unless they’re based out of a downtown garage, what about people seeing them outside of Fareless? Also, let’s say that one of the “purple trains” is pulled onto a regular service line because one of the other trains has a problem? Would people board in Gresham, then say to a rail supervisor (who now has fare inspection authority) that “TriMet says the purple trains are free, so I’m entitled to ride for free.”
This economic ‘recession’ is NOT a joke.
It’s no more business as usual.
I’ve heard that TRIMET had scheduled training for 50 operators who had been hired and then canceled it!
Things are changing here and people better get used to it!
Nobody wants to give up anything, understandable human reaction.
Passenger loads are already BUSTING to capacity.
This fare less idea is a concept that went out with the 60’s.
This is not the same America, and it sure as hell is not the same Portland, no matter how hard our city bureaucrats try to ignore that.
Do the downtown businesses pay extra for the “free service”?
They throw around this $800k number.
It’s a travesty and if anybody believes that they need to go back to Disneyland!
City of Portland even knows how serious this is.
We just got an $858 credit on our city business license fee.
THERE IS GONNA BE NO MONEY FOR THIS!
On weekends, the last train to Elmonica leaves Goose Hollow at like 1:30. No, not the 2:30 that the bars close at, but given the large number of people dressed up riding towards downtown at 9pm at night, I expect that people are using MAX to go to clubs and the like. At Beaverton TC, there are normally a bunch of cabs waiting too, and I’ve seen a couple at other stops along the route as well, so even if your bus has stopped running, you can still get home for only a few dollars…
Of course, those people aren’t in fareless square anyways, so questions about whether or not they are paying doesn’t really apply to this thread. The people that stay entirely within fareless square to go from their house to a bar could always walk the mile home at 2:30…
(And maybe I’m going to the wrong bars, but most of them slow way down after midnight. The majority of the people are there between 7pm and midnight.)
Douglas K. wrote: Why not use the money spent on making the whole area “fareless” to pay for three “free” rail lines.
Instead of three “free” rail lines, what’s wrong with a tourist-oriented circulator bus (yes, a BUS!) that would be able to serve all of the downtown/eastside area tourist spots? Lloyd Center, Rose Garden, OMSI, Waterfront Park, Art Museum, the Schnitz, Union Station… Bus would have specially marked stops with specially painted buses.
It could even assume the role of the OMSI Shuttle and either (or both) the 63 Washington Park and 73 Washington Park Shuttle routes.
Just the cost savings by eliminating fareless square for one year would pay for the entire capital cost of the operation.
(BTW: Portland is one of the very few cities I know of that don’t have a well-publicized tourist bus operation; which would help in part allow TriMet to run it as there is no private competition. Even Seattle has such a system. Oh, and Seattle also has the Waterfront “Streetcar” which is a bus, and it’s free – as long as it’s a bus – which provides a similar function but primarily on Alaskan Way.)
i wouldn’t mind adding a “purple bus” or three to augment the “purple line” system. Just work out a couple routes that make sense. Zoo-Rose Garden-Art Museum-OMSI seems like one good choice. Northwest 23rd to Hawthorne might be another.
As for the problems of not being able to use the purple trains elsewhere … just put an “out of service” sign on the Purple MAX trains when they come into town, and don’t use them in regular service. (There won’t be all that many … six to eight cars should be all that’s needed).
Thinking this over a bit more, I think the Streetcar “purple line” could do half the loop — PSU north to the Pearl District, across the Broadway Bridge, and looping around at the Convention Center. It would intersect the “free” MAX lines at three points and make for a good central circulator.
I would like to echo the comments that I and my family, including an elementary aged child, are regular MAX riders, all over, including fareless. I have never experienced anything more than “annoying” behavior. At all hours of the day/night/weekend.
I have had some really drunk women play rhyme games with my child, which was really funny.
Sometimes I think that people who complain about the “risk” or “danger” on MAX are massively sheltered people who expect to go through life without ever having to experience anything that they dislike.
We used MAX extensively the very first weekend we ever visited Portland, and it was one of the things we loved about it here. At that time, only the east side blue line existed. But we used it as tourists. Now that there are more lines, I see (and usually chat with) tourists on MAX all the time. And my family uses busses and MAX when they come visit, every single visit.
I do have a problem with this one comment, and shame on Adron for even making it (bolding is added):
Seriously? When was the last time someone was shot on MAX or a bus, and not just in Fareless – but ANYWHERE in the tri-met system? Using the recent tragedy (in which, by the way, the shooter DROVE downtown) perpetrated by a mentally unstable suburbanite to spread FUD about transit downtown is at least rude, if not completely offensive.
Most of the problems you mention there are not a result of fareless square, but of the fact that there are a LOT OF PEOPLE DOWNTOWN. That is why panhandlers like downtown. There are also several shelters downtown which are why there are so many homeless hanging around skidmore fountain area. I wait for the 20 bus regularly there and have never been hassled by the large numbers of homeless people hanging around the shelters. They only annoy me by smoking so much – but lots of people do that (happened this morning waiting for the 14 on Hawthorne). Trying to blame fareless square for social ills is just wrong.
If removing fareless is about money, or fairness – then fine, lets discuss it. But please stop with the “fareless square is scary” arguments because they are offensive. MAX in downtown Hillsboro carries lots of people to/from the Washington County jail and court system, and I have seen far more offensive behavior there than I have downtown.
In defense of Adron,
he is an excellent writer and tends to use very descriptive language when making his points.
The comment shoot people was most likely metaphorical.
Amen ValkRaider
Transit is a reflection of the community it serves. Most people on transit, and in our community, are law-abiding, orderly folks minding their own business. The fact that there are some who would bring disorder of one sort of another (from talking loudly on up) isn’t the fault of transit, it is simply that there are people like that in our community.
Transit is one of the few places where people from various walks of life intermingle, so many of our orderly citizens are more likely to run into our less orderly citizens on transit than elsewhere in their daily lives. Just because they’ve managed to shelter themselves somewhat during the rest of the time (And I count myself among the “sheltered” orderly folk) means there may be a propensity to blame transit because that’s one of the few places they run into these folks.
I don’t think it is nearly as bad as some would claim.
I haven’t been flipped off or had a horn honked at me yet on Tri-Met.
ws Says:
I haven’t been flipped off or had a horn honked at me yet on Tri-Met.
Not a bus operator, obviously. :-)
Trimet has always had a bad rap around the issue of security.
HOWEVER, Trimet had an anything goes attitude towards problems that would occur on bus and rail.
In other words there was NO ATTEMPT made to provide any code of conduct.
I remember, right here on PORTLAND TRANSPORT, saying to the members we needed improvement in the security apparatus, to which I was roundly chastised!
After the man got hit over the head with a bat, well, the rest is history as they say.
Trimet doesn’t create crime problems, but when problems do become apparent, the agency must take appropriate action, which TRIMET did do in my opinion.
Trimet is safe. I was only scared for my life one time in my career here.
I was on a late night 8, the bus was empty, I pulled to a stop and a group of what turned out to be gang bangers got on.
They went to the back of the bus and started making threats and racial slurs against me. I had never seen them before in my life.
I did not respond other than to keep driving.
They got off and nothing happened.
I’ve always been against fareless square because I used to drive a bus that went once an hour to hayden meadows and it would be packed with fare less people so the people that actually needed to get to hayden meadows could not board the bus.
The scene of people begging me to let them on is fresh in my mind.
Fare less square needs to end, not only because there is no money to support this sort of thing any longer, but it clogs up the whole system, and nobody is even mentioning that.
I remember, right here on PORTLAND TRANSPORT, saying to the members we needed improvement in the security apparatus, to which I was roundly chastised!
Not by me, you weren’t, except maybe for style. :-)
Al: I like Adron, and I read his site regularly. He is a good writer. I just dislike that type of FUD. Downtown Portland (and also some of the “like Downtown” neighborhoods such as the Pearl and Goose Hollow areas) are wonderful neighborhoods, and Fareless Square is part of that.
I spend lots of time at all hours of the day Downtown. I love to walk the city at strange hours.
Compared to most cities in the USA, Portland is really great.
We can’t perpetuate that stereotype that people who are loud, or annoying, or different, or strange, or smelly – are somehow bad.
I agree with Lurker B:
I have been “defending” downtown to all of my suburban co-workers who live in Vancouver, Battlegroung, and Happy Valley, and places like that. They are all scared since that shooting – and I have to work hard to point out that it had nothing to do with Downtown. For all we know it could have been a Starbucks in Lake Oswego, or Big Al’s in Vancouver.
Downtown is full of lots of strange people and tall buildings. I agree. But that is what I like about it.
:)
I’m not afraid of downtown. I’m afraid of Peanut Butter.
But if truly random gun violence scares suburbanites, then all need to do to handle congestion on the I-5 bridge is convince crazy people to go stand there with guns. Given that is it pretty much a given that a construction project of the size of the CRC will have a death during it, in terms of death toll, randomly shooting someone in a car on the I-5 bridge vs having a construction fall/be crushed/etc is equal. And if they accomplish the same thing, (congestion relief,) why not go with the solution that can be carried out for a few thousand dollars by just arming crazy people?
a bus that went once an hour to hayden meadows and it would be packed with fare less people so the people that actually needed to get to hayden meadows could not board the bus.
Line 8 is probably the only place that happens. It gets all of the people from the hospitals (except those who can/will take the 68), its the bus PSU students might possibly be most familiar with, and its the only bus that travels the entire Fareless Square–from PSU to the Lloyd Center. The good news is that there is no longer a portion of the route that is served by only some trips. (But if riders really needed to get to Hayden Meadows, they could take another bus and transfer to the 8 beyond the crowded portion of the route)