From TriMet’s press release:
Starting Sunday, Nov. 30, TriMet will add service on 13 of its 93 bus lines and MAX Blue Line to help relieve crowding. In addition, four bus lines will have minor service adjustments to improve schedule reliability.
I’ll beat Erik to the punch here and note that I wish that TriMet had included as much detail about bus service increases (how many buses and at what times for each route) as it has for the MAX service increase, rather than leaving it to readers to research the before/after on various published schedules.
34 responses to “TriMet Announces Service Increases for Bus and MAX”
Well, when I go to the Service Alert I see specific times listed when trains and buses will be added (and even the 15 will be getting an extra morning rush hour trip). Press releases often don’t get into the nitty-gritty details.
A tragedy of public financing of transit, is that increased ridership does not naturally lead to more service due to fares representing less than 50% of the ‘cost’ of the ride. In an era where both ridership and associated costs are rising but income to the transit agencies is not, one has to wonder where the money for this service increase is coming from.
While TriMet is FINALLY adding service on the 12 line, it’s doing it in the wrong place.
TriMet has frequent inbound service from Barbur Blvd. TC into Portland during both rush hours – but not outbound service. The largest on-time problem is service into Tigard when using the 94 is not a feasible option, and buses often get further delayed (after being delayed from earlier in the day). TriMet needs more service from Barbur Blvd TC TO KING CITY, not to Portland.
Ultimately, the solution is TriMet needs higher capacity buses. More buses = more labor, more fuel expense, more pollution. Articulated or double-decker buses provides more capacity at lower cost.
And, yes, it’s ironic that TriMet posts in the press release the MAX schedule increases but not the bus increases. Since bus schedules won’t be reprinted, I guess it is also a requirement for TriMet riders to 1: have internet access (to obtain the latest schedules, because TriMet has even REMOVED bus schedule information from those newfangled bus stop signs that were supposed to attract millions of new riders, 2: have a mobile phone (because the number of bus stops with Transit Tracker displays can be counted on two hands), and 2: have a credit card (because all new TVMs will be credit/debit card only).
I don’t buy the argument that a press release is supposed to have the basic information — if TriMet found it worthy to include the MAX information. ALL – or NONE. TriMet is once again espousing its pro-rail/anti-bus attitude.
Erik Halstead Says:
I don’t buy the argument that a press release is supposed to have the basic information — if TriMet found it worthy to include the MAX information. ALL – or NONE. TriMet is once again espousing its pro-rail/anti-bus attitude.
There are seven MAX trips being added, which would be why they could be listed on the single page of the press release. You are once again finding a bias that does not exist.
Since bus schedules won’t be reprinted,
Actually, schedules have been reprinted for the 4-Fessenden, 4-Division, 31 and 71, which are the routes with the major scheduling changes.
The added trips on the other routes are available through the standard trip-planning sources, either online or by calling 238-RIDE. There are something like 25 new trips on these routes alone, which doesn’t really fit in with that “anti-bus” story.
This was also posed on the Service Alerts page well before the press release (I want to say either the beginning of November or even early October), which included information on exactly what runs to where were being added when. And, most riders are going to read the service alerts page than the press releases (if they read the press releases at all).
Someone is more than welcome to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the idea behind reprinting the schedules is if the printed trips are changed by more than three minutes in either direction. There’s also the cost of reprinting schedules every time something changes (I remember when they stopped printing fare information in the schedules, I think it was because fares changed at different times than schedules did). If an additional trip is added somewhere, then the schedule is still technically valid, it’s just a bonus for those who don’t necessarily know it’s going to come. The only thing I don’t like is when some trips are deleted over the summer sign-up over the last few years because of expected drop in needed capacity when the K-12 schools are out for the summer, the other trips are moved up or down by a few minutes, and the schedules for some routes aren’t reprinted.
Jeff F. wrote: There are seven MAX trips being added, which would be why they could be listed on the single page of the press release. You are once again finding a bias that does not exist.
So, what you are saying, is that if there were seven bus trips added (per route, since only one MAX route, the Blue Line, had added service), that they would be individually listed?
Wait…the 12 line only had four additional trips and they weren’t listed. Why not? The 12 line serves essentially the same function as MAX for the Southwest Portland/Tigard/King City/Tualatin/Sherwood corridor…
Actually, schedules have been reprinted for the 4-Fessenden, 4-Division, 31 and 71, which are the routes with the major scheduling changes.
That doesn’t explain new schedules for other routes with scheduling changes, or the schedule updates at the bus stop signs or at transit centers.
The added trips on the other routes are available through the standard trip-planning sources, either online or by calling 238-RIDE. There are something like 25 new trips on these routes alone, which doesn’t really fit in with that “anti-bus” story.
Are there telephones located at EACH AND EVERY bus stop? No. So a cell phone is required. Why is it a requirement that a transit user has a cell phone or internet access?
25 new trips spread out over 90+ bus routes does not constitute a huge investment in quality bus service; especially since TriMet is resorting to using older buses that are past retirement age to add the service. This is a “reluctant” increase of service on TriMet’s part because TriMet is finally realizing that people do ride the bus.
“A tragedy of public financing of transit, is that increased ridership does not naturally lead to more service due to fares representing less than 50% of the ‘cost’ of the ride.”
Sort of. With the average fare of $0.91/boarding ride on MAX, and an operating cost of $221.37/hour for the vehicle, TriMet makes money if more than 243 people get on it per hour. (The trains can carry 300+ people at a time, and most people don’t ride for an hour in the first place.) In other words: full trains more than pay for themselves. So assuming that trains are added in line with demand, and that more trains means more people will ride, (and the trains don’t just “relieve overcrowding,” because that doesn’t happen anymore than “relieving congestion” on freeways happens,) then more demand isn’t really a problem on MAX… (But it is still a problem on most buses.)
Erik Halstead Says:
Jeff F. wrote: There are seven MAX trips being added, which would be why they could be listed on the single page of the press release. You are once again finding a bias that does not exist.
So, what you are saying, is that if there were seven bus trips added (per route, since only one MAX route, the Blue Line, had added service), that they would be individually listed?
Wait…the 12 line only had four additional trips and they weren’t listed. Why not? The 12 line serves essentially the same function as MAX for the Southwest Portland/Tigard/King City/Tualatin/Sherwood corridor…
The aggregate number of added bus trips, Erik, is considerably more. More than one would feasibly add to a “press release”.
As usual in these circumstances, there is also a printed Service Alert, which is distributed fleetwide, that lists ALL the added trips for buses (3.5 pages) and MAX (.5 page). clearly, there is a bias in favor of buses here because so much more type is being used for them.
Actually, schedules have been reprinted for the 4-Fessenden, 4-Division, 31 and 71, which are the routes with the major scheduling changes.
That doesn’t explain new schedules for other routes with scheduling changes, or the schedule updates at the bus stop signs or at transit centers.
There is a threshold for reprinting schedules, and adding a few trips does not trigger that process, which is very expensive. This is what is known as fiscal responsibility.
The same threshold applies to reprinting the large schedule displays for bus shelters.
Are there telephones located at EACH AND EVERY bus stop? No. So a cell phone is required. Why is it a requirement that a transit user has a cell phone or internet access?
You would be amazed at the penetration of cell phones in the Portland Metro area, but a cell phone is certainly not required to make use of the Stop ID. You could, for example, call 238-RIDE before leaving the house to determine how much time remains before the bus arrives at your stop.
25 new trips spread out over 90+ bus routes does not constitute a huge investment in quality bus service; especially since TriMet is resorting to using older buses that are past retirement age to add the service. This is a “reluctant” increase of service on TriMet’s part because TriMet is finally realizing that people do ride the bus.
Calling the increase “reluctant” implies an ability to read the minds of TriMet staff, Erik, and I do not believe you have that power. 90+ bus routes aren’t experiencing the same overloads that these particular routes have been seeing–which is why the trips have been added where they have been.
It appears that my first attempt at a response ran long enough to bounce me into moderation, so I’ll try cutting this up.
[Moderator: Earlier comment now rescued.]
Erik Halstead Says:
So, what you are saying, is that if there were seven bus trips added (per route, since only one MAX route, the Blue Line, had added service), that they would be individually listed?
What I am saying, obviously, is that if ALL the bus changes were limited to a number small enough to fit on the page, they would be individually listed. This is a press release, not a service alert. The service alert, which has been distributed fleetwide, includes ALL the changes to bus and MAX, by route. The fact that all the bus changes make up 3.5 panels as opposed to .5 panels for MAX would seem to indicate a bias in favor of buses.
Erik Halstead Says:
Jeff F. wrote:
Actually, schedules have been reprinted for the 4-Fessenden, 4-Division, 31 and 71, which are the routes with the major scheduling changes.
That doesn’t explain new schedules for other routes with scheduling changes, or the schedule updates at the bus stop signs or at transit centers.
There is a threshold used to determine whether or not schedules (including those posted at bus shelters) requires reprinting, as a simple matter of fiscal responsibility. Adding trips to a schedule without moving the other trips outside the 3-minute window doesn’t render the existing information wrong. And all those additional trips are included on the Service Alert.
Are there telephones located at EACH AND EVERY bus stop? No. So a cell phone is required. Why is it a requirement that a transit user has a cell phone or internet access?
You would be amazed at the percentage of Portland metro residents with cell phones, but a cell phone is not a requirement to use TransitTracker and the Stop ID. There may actually be more value calling for arrival information before leaving home or work.
Erik Halstead Says:
25 new trips spread out over 90+ bus routes does not constitute a huge investment in quality bus service; especially since TriMet is resorting to using older buses that are past retirement age to add the service. This is a “reluctant” increase of service on TriMet’s part because TriMet is finally realizing that people do ride the bus.
Looking at the list of new trips, it should be clear that they are not “spread out over 90+” routes, but are instead targeting the routes with the greatest peak overloads.
I didn’t notice any claim that this was a “huge investment”, but defining it as “reluctant” would require an ability to read the minds of TriMet staff to determine their motivation. I’m pretty sure that’s not a superpower anyone here has acquired.
I should comment because I started this latest argument in the main post…
I fall somewhere between Jason and Jeff on one hand and Erik on the other in this debate.
My first exposure to these route changes was the press release — it’s what TriMet emailed to me. From the press release alone, there is no direct link to the bus schedules or service alerts (or MAX for that matter, but the changes are listed right there.)
I agree that brevity prevents putting everything into a press release, but it would have been a lot more convenient for people whose first knowledge of service increases came from the press release (like me) to have a more convenient way of reaching the service alerts or schedule pages. Some previous TriMet web-based press releases have included links in the body, so this is not unprecedented.
I’m not full of fire and brimstone about this, all I said was that “I wish” that TriMet had done more with this release. That’s all. I agree now that putting all the information directly in the release would be difficult, but making it easier to find the new information would have been beneficial.
Put another way, it’s in TriMet’s interest to widely promote improved service. A supplemental document with a laundry list of all the changes, just one click away, would have been informative, convenient and impressive.
Bob R. Says:
I should comment because I started this latest argument in the main post…
And I agree completely that the presentation leaves more than a little to be desired. But, and there has to be a but . . . I wonder how many people actually read the press releases, as opposed to the home page link to “November 30 Service Change”, which links directly to the relevant information.
First of all, I didn’t realize that the press release mentioned the specific times for the added MAX trips. And I came across the changes on the Service Alerts page, since I check it often to see what is going on in TriMet land.
As for the additional trips, on some of the lines, such as the 15 or the 72, the individual details don’t really matter that much because they will probably get lost in the shuffle since they are at times when service is already very frequent. IOW, unless every bus is very on-time, its hard for riders to tell which ones which. Overall, an unprinted additional trip here and there is not going to cause huge consequences to those who don’t know about them.
average fare of $0.91/boarding ride on MAX
The way I like to put it is people who purchase a single adult fare and only use it to board MAX once (say going to a long event) result in a profit since the average cost per ride is (for the Blue Line, Spring 2008) $1.23–much less than the ticket price. Especially with the fare increases, this is also true on some bus lines.
I find it pretty funny indeed how the anti Trimet crowd keeps popping up on the various blogs always with the same tiresome argument:
“A tragedy of public financing of transit, is that increased ridership does not naturally lead to more service due to fares representing less than 50% of the ‘cost’ of the ride.”
These folks never seem to have any problem with billions of dollars being spent to bailout CEO’s of the banking industry, or trillions being wasted on immoral wars waged by private mercenary armies.
ON NO, they pick on TRANSIT as their big anti government issue.
Why should any citizen actually get any sort of subsidy from the federal government.
How dare we subsidize any sort of movement for people that cannot afford to purchase, insure, and maintain their own private vehicles.
These are the same people who voted for McCain. These are the same people who in a past generation were the “anti abolitionists”.
It’s pathetic.
November 25, 2008 1:29 PM
Jeff F Says:
November 25, 2008 2:05 PM
Jeff F Says:
November 25, 2008 2:11 PM
Jeff F Says:
November 25, 2008 2:17 PM
Jeff F Says:
November 25, 2008 3:17 PM
Jeff F Says:
Isn’t there a rule about making the same pointless argument over, and over, and over again? I can’t tell the difference in content in FIVE separate posts right after another…is this simply an attempt to drown out someone that you don’t agree with?
Anyways…let’s actually discuss the issues.
1. The aggregate number of added bus trips, Erik, is considerably more.
So? So if TriMet only adds three new bus trips, can I expect that TriMet will issue a press release that will actually provide the schedule information for those three bus trips? Or will TriMet just release a press release stating the generic “go to http://www.trimet.org to view the latest schedule information”?
Again – why does MAX get its schedule information published in the press release but not MAX? Stop skipping around the issue.
2. there is also a printed Service Alert, which is distributed fleetwide
I haven’t seen them on my buses (routes 12, 92 and 94). In fact many buses I ride have NO schedules in them, or have schedules for routes that have nothing to do with the route I’m on (i.e. a 57 schedule on a 12 bus).
3. There is a threshold for reprinting schedules, and adding a few trips does not trigger that process, which is very expensive. This is what is known as fiscal responsibility
Is this same practice carried over to MAX? Are there outdated (or missing) schedule signs on MAX platforms? Because there are on the bus system today.
4. You would be amazed at the penetration of cell phones in the Portland Metro area, but a cell phone is certainly not required to make use of the Stop ID. You could, for example, call 238-RIDE before leaving the house to determine how much time remains before the bus arrives at your stop.
So what? So, I’d be surprised at the penetration of automobiles in the Portland metro area. So should we mandate the use of a car, since the vast majority of Portland residents have a car?
My house is five minutes away from the bus stop. Why should I have to call 238-RIDE each and every time to find out if my bus is going to be late (especially since TriMet’s apologists keep telling me how reliable and frequent my bus is, yet not one of them is willing to ride with me to see the truth)?
Oh, and by the way, I don’t have a landline phone. There are Portland residents who don’t have phone service of any kind.
5. Calling the increase “reluctant” implies an ability to read the minds of TriMet staff, Erik, and I do not believe you have that power. 90+ bus routes aren’t experiencing the same overloads that these particular routes have been seeing–which is why the trips have been added where they have been.
If it weren’t reluctant, TriMet would be announcing a huge order of brand new articulated buses and a huge service increase to take advantage of the demand, and Metro would announce a huge program to upgrade bus stops.
As for TriMet’s ability to add service where it’s needed…let’s see. TriMet has added INBOUND 12 service during rush hour, but as a 12 line rider I can tell you that the 12 line is rarely crowded inbound at rush hour. Why? During the morning there’s the 94. (The 94s are often standing room only from Barbur TC north. The 12s might be standing room only from Burlingame north.) The 12s are often standing room only OUTBOUND from Portland but TriMet hasn’t increased service. When I used to ride the 12 at 10:00 AM inbound at 8:00 PM outbound I often rode standing-room only buses (and when I was taking a PSU class where I’d be on the bus closer to 9:00 PM, again the buses were standing room only)…but I don’t see TriMet adding service at those times.
What is the value of TriMet adding inbound service, especially in the PM rush hour as it did with the last service change? The result is outbound buses at 20 minute intervals (because the outbound buses are more likely late) that are standing room only/crush load, but inbound buses are 5-10 minutes apart and running empty…
But, the schedule planners in the Center Street Ivory Tower far removed from the 12 line…they MUST know something I don’t about those crush loads that I saw every day.
6. What I am saying, obviously, is that if ALL the bus changes were limited to a number small enough to fit on the page, they would be individually listed.
This doesn’t address why the MAX service changes were listed as part of the press release. If it’s a press release and not a service alert, then the MAX schedule changes didn’t need to be posted as part of the press release.
7. but defining it as “reluctant” would require an ability to read the minds of TriMet staff to determine their motivation
Would you like to point out the investments made in the bus system over the last 10 years? And then quantify the amount of capital investment that each bus rider received versus each MAX/Streetcar rider?
Maybe as a MAX rider, you would have no problem riding 20 year old, unrefurbished, worn out, unreliable, non-air conditioned equipment, boarding at a MAX platform that isn’t even a platform at all but a sign stuck in the ballast alongside the tracks?
When I see TriMet actually stepping up and investing in bus riders, I’ll get off my soapbox. But bus riders have taken it in the rear while Fred Hansen gloats over MAX investments. When is the last time he actually gloated about improved bus service, or a new bus route, or new equipment? Where’s TriMet’s webpage for new bus vehicle facts, or the technical data of a bus? Where’s TriMet’s “future bus routes” page?
Isn’t there a rule about making the same pointless argument over, and over, and over again?
1. The history on Jeff’s comments in this thread is clear. He posted just one big comment, and that got delayed, so he split his response up into multiple separate subsequent comments. Then, his first comment got restored. There’s a sentence from *him* about it, and a note from *me* about it.
2. You of all people shouldn’t be demanding stricter enforcement of a rule against “making the same pointless argument over, and over, and over again?”. Don’t get mad that I just said this — you demanded a response and you got one. Move along.
hehe..
After having gone overboard responding previously, I will be brief. Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Erik Halstead Says:
Again – why does MAX get its schedule information published in the press release but not MAX? Stop skipping around the issue.
I did not skip. The MAX information fit, Erik.
I haven’t seen them on my buses (routes 12, 92 and 94). In fact many buses I ride have NO schedules in them, or have schedules for routes that have nothing to do with the route I’m on (i.e. a 57 schedule on a 12 bus).
You should definitely take this up with your bus operators. In some cases, you’ll find those odd schedules because a bus had previously been on a different route and in other cases it’s because the schedules are for routes in the immediate area.
Is this same practice carried over to MAX? Are there outdated (or missing) schedule signs on MAX platforms? Because there are on the bus system today.
Yes, the same practice applies. In fact, the on-platform schedules were replaced this year for the first time in 3-4 years. On the bus side, schedules should be current; if there are missing or vandalized displays you should contact TriMet with specifics.
My house is five minutes away from the bus stop. Why should I have to call 238-RIDE each and every time to find out if my bus is going to be late (especially since TriMet’s apologists keep telling me how reliable and frequent my bus is, yet not one of them is willing to ride with me to see the truth)?
Are you suggesting that a posted schedule would improve the accuracy of your information?
Can you list who these apologists are, because I’ve yet to discover anyone who would make that claim about the 12-Barbur?
Oh, and by the way, I don’t have a landline phone. There are Portland residents who don’t have phone service of any kind.
I think it’s on the order of 3% of households, actually.
If it weren’t reluctant, TriMet would be announcing a huge order of brand new articulated buses and a huge service increase to take advantage of the demand, and Metro would announce a huge program to upgrade bus stops.
No one has written off articulated buses; they are very much on the table for upcoming bus orders. Reluctance has nothing to do with the size of the capital budget, however, any more than Metro has to do with bus stops.
Bob Richardson wrote: 2. You of all people shouldn’t be demanding stricter enforcement of a rule against “making the same pointless argument over, and over, and over again?”. Don’t get mad that I just said this — you demanded a response and you got one. Move along.
Gee, Bob, you KNEW that your statement would incite me. “Don’t get mad that I just said this”…
So, why should I, of all people, have no right to ask a question? Is this censorship? Are you saying that anyone else has the full right to say what they want, except I?
If anyone should move on, it is Bob Richardson moving on from his pointless attacks on me as a person.
Bob Richardson wrote: 2. You of all people shouldn’t be demanding stricter enforcement of a rule against “making the same pointless argument over, and over, and over again?”. Don’t get mad that I just said this — you demanded a response and you got one. Move along.
Gee, Bob, you KNEW that your statement would incite me. “Don’t get mad that I just said this”…
So, why should I, of all people, have no right to ask a question? Is this censorship? Are you saying that anyone else has the full right to say what they want, except I?
If anyone should move on, it is Bob Richardson moving on from his pointless attacks on me as a person.
Well let me weigh in here. first on schedule reprinting honestly I rarely have never had to stick to schedules because always living on frequent service routes I have been lucky to just walk down the street a bit and wait a average 3-4 minutes to get on a bus…(actually with the laws of averages a 15 minute service bus it is 7.5 to 8 minutes wait which honestly isn’t to bad)
I have only had two times in my living in portland where i need to stick to a schedule first was taking the 8 to OHSU to take the first bus out. the other was taking the 12 to sherwood everyday for 3 months.
If you plan on using transit it’s almost a fact of life: don’t plan on show up right on time to a location give yourself about 15 minutes early (my mother always told me to be early in the first place so….) thus complaining about schedules changed on a frequent service bus for me is kind pointless unless you are in specific cases.
On the 12…well I would for sure say it takes forever….especially during rush hour you can add 15-30 minutes in the long run because of traffic. this is a issue more of the very fact of not having it’s own right of way than the service issues. I would be a big advocate for the expansion of the 12 service,
Finally, the cell phone/debit card issues, if you eavesdrop and talk around with transit riders I think you would find majority have mobile phones now. a large amount have some form of plastic, Paypal even offer a immediately loaded pre-payed card that you could use. Further consider if you have been on a bus your realize 9 or 8 out of 10 people have passes, especailly people of lower socieconomic status because being a frequent user of the bus system your a order of magnitude more likely to have a pass to save on costs. Passes you can still buy with cash at any safeway or fred meyer and the majority of albertsons.
First of all, let me thank Michael P. for providing some input into this forum that is intelligent and worthy of discussion.
On the 12…well I would for sure say it takes forever….especially during rush hour you can add 15-30 minutes in the long run because of traffic.
The 12 is TriMet’s worst performing Frequent Service route. TriMet could easily spend money to improve the performance of this route – the first thing is to separate it into two separate routes instead of interlining in downtown. Either half of the 12 line is in itself a “long” route; combining the 12B/12S makes for one of TriMet’s longest routes. Throw in a combination with the 4, 9 or 20 which commonly happens at Gresham TC, or another route at Parkrose/Sumner and it’s no wonder the 12 gets screwed – it’s ability to be delayed is magnitudes higher than many other TriMet routes, since it can be affected literally by traffic anywhere in Portland. Imagine, if I-5 traffic in Wilsonville was directly impacted by a wreck in Troutdale on I-84. That’s the 12 line, every day.
Beyond eliminating the interline, TriMet could invest in better bus stops (usually located after, not before, traffic signals), traffic signal pre-emption, queue-jumper signals, and streamlining (especially in Tigard and at the Barbur Boulevard TC). Working with ODOT to improve the I-5/99W interchange, along with adding a third lane leading to the Capitol Highway onramp southbound to eliminate traffic backups that affect the 12 line.
if you eavesdrop and talk around with transit riders I think you would find majority have mobile phones now
Actually I find that I’m more often the source of transit information, as many of my fellow bus riders don’t have access to Transit Tracker. Frequently I see people wondering about their bus and I’m usually the one to tell them about service delays.
a large amount have some form of plastic, Paypal even offer a immediately loaded pre-payed card that you could use
TriMet should have an “open access” policy. As lnog as cash is legal tender, TriMet should be accepting it at 100% of boarding locations. (I agree, acceptance of debit/credit cards should be expanded as well.)
Passes you can still buy with cash at any safeway or fred meyer and the majority of albertsons.
Unfortunately, these stores are not located near ANY of the WES stops, or many MAX stops.
Most transit users expect to walk up to a transit access point and be able to purchase a fare. One should not be told to “walk a half mile that way to a Freddy’s”.
Jeff F. wrote: I did not skip. The MAX information fit, Erik.
So does this:
Additional 12-Barbur Blvd. buses traveling to Portland: leaving Barbur Transit Center at 7:48, 8:18 and 8:48 a.m.
You should definitely take this up with your bus operators.
Why should I be doing TriMet’s job? I pay TriMet taxes to do their job, now I have to be a mystery shopper and any time I don’t see the right schedules in a bus, I have to make an official complaint to TriMet? Further, TriMet’s “customer complaint” office is slow and rarely actually takes positive action to fix problems.
What’s your excuse for that?
On the bus side, schedules should be current; if there are missing or vandalized displays you should contact TriMet with specifics.
I have made TWO official complaints about bus stop 183, and yet the schedule is not there.
What’s your excuse for that?
Are you suggesting that a posted schedule would improve the accuracy of your information?
No, it wouldn’t. But it’d at least be a source of transit information for would-be TriMet riders, wouldn’t you agree? Isn’t the point to make transit MORE accessible and MORE friendly? Or is TriMet only to be used by those who actually know how to use TriMet?
I think it’s on the order of 3% of households, actually.
Your point is? TriMet’s total trip share is about 3% of trips, right? So since you have written off any Portland resident who has no telephone service because they are a minority of Portland residents, should we extend transportation planning by the same argument – and thus since TriMet’s ridership as an overall mode of transport share is equally insignificant, that we shouldn’t even bother with TriMet?
No one has written off articulated buses; they are very much on the table for upcoming bus orders. Reluctance has nothing to do with the size of the capital budget, however, any more than Metro has to do with bus stops.
No, Fred Hansen publicly stated himself that he is opposed to articulated buses.
Source: http://www.portlandtribune.com/opinion/story.php?story_id=120699417903725300
Fred Hansen stated, in HIS words: “Should we be using longer, articulated buses to carry these riders? Articulated buses work well in cities like Seattle where they carry people from the suburbs on freeways to the city core. In Portland, we rely on MAX light rail for this type of high-capacity service.
“A 60-foot articulated bus is difficult to maneuver around tight corners and would not be a good fit for most of our high-use routes.”
Never mind that even smaller transit agencies such as Eugene and Spokane’s have seen the value of articulated buses; systems like Los Angeles that operate extensive heavy and light rail systems also operate articulated buses, and Vancouver, B.C.’s very extensive transit agency also operates a huge fleet of artics along with its rail system.
And what does Metro have to do with bus stops? Just as much as Metro has anything to do with transportation planning. Metro controls the MTIP which helps fund for transit access projects (which by definition includes bus stops), transit-oriented development (which includes development in and around bus stops), and new transit lines (which includes new bus service). Claiming that Metro has nothing to do with bus stops would suggest that Metro can only plan for freeway lanes but not interchanges or ramp meters; or by extension can build the Columbia River Bridge but not toll plazas, interchanges, or anything else but the bridge itself. We all know that Metro has put its mittens anywhere and everywhere, including salmon habitat underneath the bridge, so Metro can – and should – worry about TriMet bus riders and where and how they get on, and off, the bus. They worry about MAX and Streetcar riders, so what’s your excuse as to why Metro doesn’t give the same consideration to bus riders?
Erik Halstead Says:
Me: You should definitely take this up with your bus operators.
Why should I be doing TriMet’s job? I pay TriMet taxes to do their job, now I have to be a mystery shopper and any time I don’t see the right schedules in a bus, I have to make an official complaint to TriMet? Further, TriMet’s “customer complaint” office is slow and rarely actually takes positive action to fix problems.
I said “operator”, Erik. Ask your bus driver for a schedule or ask why they’re not in the rack. If you actually want a schedule, at any rate.
I have made TWO official complaints about bus stop 183, and yet the schedule is not there. What’s your excuse for that?
It appears that the bus pole has a frame for information. Is the complaint that the frame is empty or that it doesn’t include a schedule, but only a map and Stop ID number?
Your point is? TriMet’s total trip share is about 3% of trips, right? So since you have written off any Portland resident who has no telephone service because they are a minority of Portland residents, should we extend transportation planning by the same argument – and thus since TriMet’s ridership as an overall mode of transport share is equally insignificant, that we shouldn’t even bother with TriMet?
No one has written them off, Erik. If we’re still on the subject of how people get information about additional bus trips–and I’m not at all certain that’s what we’re now talking about–there are those printed Rider Alerts I already mentioned.
No, Fred Hansen publicly stated himself that he is opposed to articulated buses.
That’s from April, and a lot has changed nationwide and in the region since April. Artics are very much under consideration. After my trip to the UK I kept hoping for double-decker buses but Americans seem to view them purely as a novelty.
So, sorry, I have no excuses, only some explanations. I also have no answers to a couple of questions I posed to you:
Are you suggesting that a posted schedule would improve the accuracy of your information?
Can you list who these apologists are, because I’ve yet to discover anyone who would make that claim about the 12-Barbur?
Where is Trolleybuses lines in this Portland: TriMet Announces Service Increases for Bus and MAX? I want seeing this trolleybuses includes in TRIMET’s bus routes with articulated or 40- or 45- regular-sized low floor buses with TRIMET Announces Service Increases? Let me know. Please reply this message if you can.
TriMet has no trolleybus lines, nor do any other transit systems in the area.
Jason –
David comments here now and again… usually regarding Trolleybuses. He is quite aware that there are currently no such lines in the area, rather he is advocating for adding/upgrading them.
I have never met David but I suspect based on the phrasing of past comments that there may be a language barrier here.
Jeff F. wrote: Ask your bus driver for a schedule or ask why they’re not in the rack. If you actually want a schedule, at any rate.
And if the Operator doesn’t have a schedule, then what? I’ve seen many riders ask the Operator for a schedule only to be told he or she doesn’t have one to provide. (They do have the full schedule book available but not to give to a customer, just for their own reference.)
It appears that the bus pole has a frame for information. Is the complaint that the frame is empty or that it doesn’t include a schedule, but only a map and Stop ID number?
Do you want me to send you a picture? I can tell you as a matter of fact that TriMet stop ID 183 indeed has a schedule holder. There was at one time a schedule posted there, then TriMet removed it (and most every other schedule up and down the 12 line) and while other bus stops had the schedules replaced, stop 183 never got a new schedule.
And, the frame is empty.
No one has written them off, Erik.
Then why does all so-called “improvements” involve the requirement of a cell phone or internet access? Or the WES TVMs requiring credit/debit cards, when there is nowhere to buy a cash fare (especially in Wilsonville)? Seems like TriMet is writing off “low value” customers quite well.
That’s from April, and a lot has changed nationwide and in the region since April.
I want to hear it from Fred Hansen himself. Nothing has changed since April. Ridership is up. Demand is up. Other cities have had bus ridership increases three years strong; only TriMet has begun to increase ridership THIS YEAR following three years of ridership drops. Had we started purchasing high capacity buses three years ago, TriMet would be well-equipped to meet current demand (and would have a cleaner, more reliable, more modern fleet that is fully low-floor, fully air-conditioned, among other benefits.) Instead of “leading” by providing service before the rush, we are now playing catch-up. Seattle, on the other hand, is massively ramping up service – and has been for several years. Same with Vancouver, BC.
Can you list who these apologists are, because I’ve yet to discover anyone who would make that claim about the 12-Barbur?
All the people who claim that TriMet is doing great – and not a single one of them actually rides the bus service (other than maybe a seldom-used MAX feeder.)
By the way, I see that with the newest service change/Operator bids, that the 44 and 45 routes (both of which are non-frequent service) are equipped with low floor buses (even though the low floor buses can’t deploy their ramp at the majority of stops on these two routes) while I’ve seen multiple 1400s on the Frequent Service 12 route.
And TriMet’s webpage says:
For your comfort, all MAX trains and Frequent Service buses are air conditioned, with low floors for easy curb-level boarding. They have anti-slip flooring, panoramic windows, and wider aisles and doors. On our newest buses, you’ll enjoy more comfortable seats and bright, colorful interior designs.
All means all. There is absolutely, positively NO REASON why a 12 bus is running with a 1400 (or a 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, or 2100) unless it’s an absolute emergency. Since TriMet hasn’t acquired any new buses (at least that are in service), I’d like to know where the low-floors for the 44 and 45 are coming from and why the 12 is losing low floor service.
All the people who claim that TriMet is doing great – and not a single one of them actually rides the bus service (other than maybe a seldom-used MAX feeder.)
You were asked to name names. You seem to know intimate details of these people, including precisely which buses they ride (or you are making up your claim to know that they only seldomly ride MAX “feeders”.), but won’t answer the question. This has been going on for years with you.
Do you want me to send you a picture?
Jeff asked you a simple question, there’s no need to get hostile.
All the people who claim that TriMet is doing great – and not a single one of them actually rides the bus service (other than maybe a seldom-used MAX feeder.)
I fairly frequently use the 15, 17 and 77. Not as a commuter, but as someone who lives by them.
I think TriMet is doing great. They can absolutely do better, but they still beat out Buffalo, NY as an example. The buses in general are cleaner and appear better maintaned than those in San Diego, CA for example.
Is TriMet as good as MUNI in San Francisco, or MTA in New York, or MBTA in Boston? Well, no, but Portland’s not quite SF, NY, or Boston. It doesn’t mean TriMet still doing well above the average though.
[Moderator: Block quotes, extra attributions, and italics added for clarity.]
Erik: And if the Operator doesn’t have a schedule, then what? I’ve seen many riders ask the Operator for a schedule only to be told he or she doesn’t have one to provide. (They do have the full schedule book available but not to give to a customer, just for their own reference.)
***Probably not true, Eric. It is more likely that the bus Operator has the schedules in their pouch and just didn’t put them out. As for the schedule book it is the Operator’s choice if they hand it out for a customer to use.***
Erik: Do you want me to send you a picture? I can tell you as a matter of fact that TriMet stop ID 183 indeed has a schedule holder. There was at one time a schedule posted there, then TriMet removed it (and most every other schedule up and down the 12 line) and while other bus stops had the schedules replaced, stop 183 never got a new schedule.
And, the frame is empty.
***Then it seems to me that the right action was taken. When the schedule became inaccurate it was removed. Since it has not been replaced you could reasonably infer that the scheduling department is still working on a final timetable. (The 12 line, by the way, is one of the more difficult lines to schedule)***
Erik: Then why does all so-called “improvements” involve the requirement of a cell phone or internet access? Or the WES TVMs requiring credit/debit cards, when there is nowhere to buy a cash fare (especially in Wilsonville)? Seems like TriMet is writing off “low value” customers quite well.
***I really don’t see your reasoning here Eric. The “improvements ” as you say are really “in addition to” already long established means of getting schedule information. A person who doesn’t have a telephone or internet can simply buy a schedule book or pick up for free a line schedule from numerous locations. This is the same way that people have been doing it for 50+ years.
Giving people alternate means of getting free bus information–such as telephone or internet simply shows that Trimet is seeking new ways to inform their customers. Finally, it should be noted that Trimet was one of the first transit agencies in the US to even provide real-time bus information to the public via telephone or the internet. ***
Erik: I want to hear it from Fred Hansen himself. Nothing has changed since April. Ridership is up. Demand is up. Other cities have had bus ridership increases three years strong; only TriMet has begun to increase ridership THIS YEAR following three years of ridership drops. Had we started purchasing high capacity buses three years ago, TriMet would be well-equipped to meet current demand (and would have a cleaner, more reliable, more modern fleet that is fully low-floor, fully air-conditioned, among other benefits.) Instead of “leading” by providing service before the rush, we are now playing catch-up. Seattle, on the other hand, is massively ramping up service – and has been for several years. Same with Vancouver, BC.
***Your opening statement in the above paragraph is self-contradicting. You say that “Nothing has changed since April.” and then state that both ridership and demand are up. Then, your next statement is factually wrong–Trimet has had ridership drops for only two years(as per the National Transit Database). Also, even with those losses Trimet still has more unlinked trips per year(as of 2007) than many other equal sized or larger transit districts(including Seattle and Denver).
As for purchasing new equipment, yes, Trimet could have done that. Never mind that they would have had to cut service to do it or that they didn’t have enough operators at the time to drive all the scheduled runs. Instead the management at Trimet focused on hiring new operators so that we at Trimet would not have to cancel runs.
Finally, as for your statement about Seattle, the last I heard was that they had a 70-80 million dollar deficit.***
Erik: All the people who claim that TriMet is doing great – and not a single one of them actually rides the bus service (other than maybe a seldom-used MAX feeder.)
***Shame on you, Eric. This is just plain FALSE and you know it. In previous posts you have made the offer, but then didn’t follow up with any further information–if you want to be the host of something like this, then you need to step up and do the planning.If you post the line/train number for the bus that you regularly take–I might just take a ride.
Your second statement is nothing more that an ugly slur. You have no way of knowing who does or does not ride the bus either on this site or in the public at large. I, for example, do ride the bus as well as drive. Furthermore, I have been a regular or semi-regular bus rider both here(10+ years) and in the city that I grew up in(another 10+years).
Finally, I think that you owe everyone an apology for this thoughtless statement.***
Erik: By the way, I see that with the newest service change/Operator bids, that the 44 and 45 routes (both of which are non-frequent service) are equipped with low floor buses (even though the low floor buses can’t deploy their ramp at the majority of stops on these two routes) while I’ve seen multiple 1400s on the Frequent Service 12 route.
And TriMet’s webpage says:
For your comfort, all MAX trains and Frequent Service buses are air conditioned, with low floors for easy curb-level boarding. They have anti-slip flooring, panoramic windows, and wider aisles and doors. On our newest buses, you’ll enjoy more comfortable seats and bright, colorful interior designs.
All means all. There is absolutely, positively NO REASON why a 12 bus is running with a 1400 (or a 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, or 2100) unless it’s an absolute emergency. Since TriMet hasn’t acquired any new buses (at least that are in service), I’d like to know where the low-floors for the 44 and 45 are coming from and why the 12 is losing low floor service.
***Actually there are many possible valid explanations for why non LF busses are being run on a FS line. Have you even tried to find out from Trimet why this is happening? Or are you just leaping to an unfounded conclusion?***
[Moderator: Link formatting corrected.]
The Smooth Operator Says:
Finally, as for your statement about Seattle, the last I heard was that they had a 70-80 million dollar deficit.
King County budget
That’s my stab at providing a link to a PDF file from a Seattle County Councilmember dealing with the countywide and Metro’s deficit for FY09 (apologies to all if I screwed up the formatting). The county’s deficit is $90 million; Metro’s is projected at $70 million annually. It should also be noted that Metro is funded almost entirely by a county sales tax (on top of the state sales tax), and their fare recovery rate is apparently 21%.
From the link:
In late July, Metro received another hit to its budget. The executive announced that an unexpectedly sharp drop in sales tax revenue will cost Metro $40 million in anticipated revenue. Sales tax is Metro’s primary source of funding, and this loss, combined with the fuel deficit, means Metro is facing a projected $70 million annual shortfall starting next year.
I believe that the sales tax has provided King County Metro with a very stable funding source over the years; much better than TriMet’s payroll tax instituted as an emergency measure in 1969. If I recall correctly, there was a point several years ago when the State budget and all its transportation funding took a huge hit (lowering of the auto license fee?). C-TRAN, for one, had to make drastic budget cuts, but Metro’s budget was almost unaffected.
lowering of the auto license fee?
I believe it was a Washington state initiative repealing the registration tax.
Also, I took the 45 yesterday and it was not a low-floor bus. And it was written in the TIP that low-floor buses were put on the 17 due to truck traffic, etc, pollution on St. Helens Road.