With another violent attack on MAX, today’s Oregonian makes the connection – will this latest incident deter folks who are making the switch to transit because of high gas prices?
With another violent attack on MAX, today’s Oregonian makes the connection – will this latest incident deter folks who are making the switch to transit because of high gas prices?
0 responses to “More Violence on MAX”
Is the risk of being hurt on MAX higher or lower than the risk of being hurt in a car accident?
John –
Another question might be: Does riding MAX (or transit in general) increase the risk of assault or injury in your daily activities significantly above other means of going out in public? Or does the focus on tragic events like this when they happen give a false impression of risk? (I’ve previously advocated for increased security and staff presence, primarily because I believe that unchecked bad (but harmless) behavior creates an impression of permissibility for seriously unsafe behavior, as well as scares potential riders away.)
One way to look at is this: In terms of raw numbers, the entire city of Corvallis boards a MAX train TWICE every weekday. On that scale of population, is it a surprise that incidents happen? If it’s not a surprise, why does it generate such an intense reaction when it happens?
One more thing about this tragic incident: I’m pleased that arrests were made so quickly. I also heard that an arrest was made in the baseball bat incident from a few months ago. I think a lot of the intimidating behavior out there is perpetrated by repeat offenders, so hopefully the process of apprehending and prosecuting offenders will prevent some future occurrences.
If nothing else, I think this will hurt attempts to expand the MAX system. Green line/I-205 MAX will be a given since it’s under construction, but I can understand how this could affect the proposed route to Milwaukie and extending the exact route this happened (Yellow) into Clark Co.
The woman was from Vancouver, no less.
The better news was right above that on page A4, where the baseball bat attacker in Gresham was sentenced to 9 1/2 years, and afterwards may face deportation for being an illegal immigrant.
I’ve noticed a connection here, though: both people, who were white, tried to tell minorities to stop being disruptive. I guess some out there think these “tolerance” and “multiculturalism” things aren’t two-way streets.
I would also guess this wouldn’t look good for youth as a whole, especially with the decision on the amount of the September fare increase coming later this month.
How is security on MAX in general? I mean, does TriMet have it’s own security unit, or are they under contract from Multnomah, Washington and Clackamas Counties? Up here, Sound Transit is going to contract with King County PD(Sheriff’s Office), and there is just one person on a local paper’s forum thinking it is more sinister. I don’t. They are just to probably be called in when the rent-a-cops from Securitas will need to do certain things that only a commissioned police force can do, such as make the arrest.
Personally, as a crime victim myself, after getting off a night owl bus a few years ago, I was mugged, but thankfully there was somebody there to scare the guy away, and it helped that it was near the SPD West Precinct, at Shift Change, so there were more cars in the area. Still, I do take offense when somebody decides to make it look like the police protecting what is now an important asset is a bad thing. I live in a neighborhood where the police presence for a week a year increases temporarily off the charts!(I live in the Southeast part of Seattle, where the Chevrolet Cup Hydroplane Races are held(yes, they still race, although I don’t like the quiet turbines, I love the U-3, a modern boat with an engine that is going on 70) and they increase the security). The police give me no problems, and I even know a few SPD officers that used to do security at my mother’s Safeway Store. For them, it’s overtime.
How does this compare with driving
To compare being assaulted on MAX to having an auto accident is appals and oranges. The proper comparison is the chance of being assaulted on a transit trip vs. an auto trip.
My guess is that being assaulted by a stranger, in your car, is quite rare. The trip to your car is shorter. And a driver generally does not hang around transit stations in the company of gangsters.
Does anyone have hard numbers?
As to the chance of an accident, I don’t have that data either, but I DO HAVE data on deaths:
MAX kills abou 2 ½ times as many people as driving in Portland per passenger-mile see: portlandfacts.com/Transit/MAXSafetyChart.html,
MAX mostly kills people outside of the train. Kids on bikes (Gresham Station), people suffering from epilepsy (82nd station), didn’t hear/see a second train (Beaverton), slipped while running to catch train, ended up squished (PGE park) and many more. see: portlandfacts.com/Transit/MaxKills1998-2006-04.htm
Before you complain, please note the “per passenger-mile”. The only reason that MAX has killed 20 instead of thousands is that so few people ride MAX. If every trip in Portland were on transit and non were in cars, you would expect the total deaths in Portland to at least double.
Rail alway has been an extremely dangerous mode of transit compared to modern driving.
BTW, if I recall, there were more pedestrian deaths, per-capita, in NYC before the car than after!!
Thanks
JK
TriMet has a contract with Wackenhut for private security (they can’t do much beyond watching and calling in about incidents), and has arrangements with various police forces. Also, from what a police officer friend tells me, any law enforcement officer has the right to intervene should they happen to be riding transit and witness an incident. TriMet also has their own fare inspectors and supervisors.
According to the Oregonian article:
JK –
Your list includes some incidents where people climbed over barricades or fences, and incidents where people violated traffic control devices. Is MAX entirely to blame in such circumstances?
Judging by the dates, it appears your list even includes an incident where a person climbed over the barricade from I-84, after leaving his car, and crouched down in the trackway and was struck by a test train, before MAX even opened. Why did this person consider climbing over a barricade his best option for leaving his disabled vehicle on the freeway?
If a pedestrian jaywalks in front of a moving car, against the signal, would you say that the car was mostly at fault?
Then there is the problem (you did mention “apples and oranges”) of comparing passenger-miles for the sorts of trips made via transit, to average passenger miles for all automobile trips, which includes far longer trips and rural miles which have lower incidents of fatalities. A better comparison would be to compare urban trips with an average length of between 5 and 6 miles, which is in range of the average one-way transit journey.
As for the relative safety of parking lots, The Columbian (archive) reports that a single Wal-Mart in Clark County generates over 490 police calls per year, including a mobile meth lab operating in the parking lot. If we are going to apply the same standards that are being applied to MAX, why isn’t there an outcry to shut down crime magnets like Wal-Mart (yes, I know that’s an absurd statement about Wal-Mart, that’s exactly my point.)
This Columbian article indicates the 5th suspect has been arrested.
Allegedly, this suspect also robbed a child at gun point at a bus stop… if true, these particular perpetrators are not limiting their activity just to MAX.
Bob R. Says: Your list includes some incidents where people climbed over barricades or fences, and incidents where people violated traffic control devices. Is MAX entirely to blame in such circumstances?
JK: Such incidents are counted in road deaths, so they should be counted in MAX. As you keep reminding us, you need comparable data.
Bob R. Says: Judging by the dates, it appears your list even includes an incident where a person climbed over the barricade from I-84, after leaving his car, and crouched down in the trackway and was struck by a test train, before MAX even opened. Why did this person consider climbing over a barricade his best option for leaving his disabled vehicle on the freeway?
JK: Such incidents are counted in road deaths, so they should be counted in MAX. As you keep reminding us, you need comparable data.
Bob R. Says: If a pedestrian jaywalks in front of a moving car, against the signal, would you say that the car was mostly at fault?
JK: Such incidents are counted in road deaths, so they should be counted in MAX. As you keep reminding us, you need comparable data.
Bob R. Says: Then there is the problem (you did mention “apples and oranges”) of comparing passenger-miles for the sorts of trips made via transit, to average passenger miles for all automobile trips, which includes far longer trips and rural miles which have lower incidents of fatalities. A better comparison would be to compare urban trips with an average length of between 5 and 6 miles, which is in range of the average one-way transit journey.
JK: Get the data and make the comparison. I’ll be particularly interested in how you allocate the trip length of individual passengers on a train to the total rail line length. Same for cars. in may turn out that drivers who only travel 5 miles on trip are different than those that travel 4 or 6 miles. Have fun finding the data.
Bob R. Says: As for the relative safety of parking lots, The Columbian (archive) reports that a single Wal-Mart in Clark County generates over 490 police calls per year, including a mobile meth lab operating in the parking lot. If we are going to apply the same standards that are being applied to MAX, why isn’t there an outcry to shut down crime magnets like Wal-Mart (yes, I know that’s an absurd statement about Wal-Mart, that’s exactly my point.)
JK: How many of those incidents are wanton attacks on innocent bystanders, as opposed to WallMart nailing shoplifters. Come on Bob, you know the importance of drilling down to the details.
Thanks
JK
You might as well say:
“Gee, should I not walk down the street because I could get mugged?”
I was talking about Max security long before it hit the papers, but at this point I really don’t think TRIMET can do much more.
I follow the international bus news and crime is rampant right now, Portland is actually tame compared to many places.
MAX and TRIMET has nothing to do with crime.
Its a media event nowadays.
Bob R. Allegedly, this suspect also robbed a child at gun point at a bus stop… if true, these particular perpetrators are not limiting their activity just to MAX.
JK: Good observation – they apparently confine their crimes to transit. Something else drivers seldon have to worry about.
BTW, how expensive would gas have to get to make driving as expensive as the REAL cost of transit?
End prohibition – Drill Everywhere, Drill Now!!
Thanks
JK
“BTW, how expensive would gas have to get to make driving as expensive as the REAL cost of transit?”
JK;
You might as well ask:
How much would it cost if each individual citizen had to hire their own private bodyguards rather than have a tax funded police force.
Transit is a public utility, not a luxury.
AL: Transit is more closely related to public welfare as opposed to a public utility.
Utilities — everyone pays, everyone uses, such as electricity, water, sewer, garbage, telephone. Roads and sidewalks would be grouped into this definition. Even people who don’t drive use the roads and/or consume products that require roads every day.
Welfare — everyone pays, few people use, designed for the poor, abused by the middle class — food stamps, Oregon health plan, income capped apartments, section 8, public housing, and etc. Transit and bike lanes would grouped into this definition…
Public safety is #1 in any charter, it is in a classification of its own.
AL M Says: You might as well ask:
How much would it cost if each individual citizen had to hire their own private bodyguards rather than have a tax funded police force.
JK: Cheap. 357 magnum.
AL M Says: Transit is a public utility, not a luxury.
JK: That is why cost matters.
Fact is gas would have to get close to $40/gal for driving to cost as much as the average Trimet bus, probably $60/gal to cost a much as MAX. Not to mention about $80/gal to match the cost of the coming commuter rail. (Of course these numbers are based on a 50mpg car, which is the worst car most people would have at those gas prices.)
Thanks
JK
Jim: “How many of those incidents are wanton attacks on innocent bystanders, as opposed to WallMart nailing shoplifters. Come on Bob, you know the importance of drilling down to the details.”
Homicide, rape, kidnapping, etc:
http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1002864
Now, I don’t know if those are attacks on innocent bystanders or if the victim knew the attacker beforehand, but those aren’t shoplifting type crimes…
And yes Bob, people actually do bring up the fact that they are magnets for crime when they fight WalMart. :-)
Welfare — everyone pays, few people use[…] Transit and bike lanes would grouped into this definition…
Unlike many the other things mentioned, “transit” and “bike lanes” can be used by anyone, regardless of income level. I’ve never seen anyone told they cannot ride a bus or cannot use a bike lane because they make and/or have too much money.
Besides, “transit,” in the manner the word is used, would include any and all road construction and maintenance for the use of private vehicles, in addition to transit operations.
End prohibition – Drill Everywhere, Drill Now!!
The experts say “drilling everywhere” would only increase world supplies by a tenth of a percent (this was in a May 16th USA Today editorial), and would have negligible impact on gas prices.
Our only option is to use less, including the military, which is responsible for most of the fuel consumption in this country (as I understand, everyone in the country could stop driving private vehicles of all types and it would only make a small dent in the amount of U.S. oil consumption).
Al M: I hear in Gautemala City, drug gangs are boarding busses and executing drivers on the spot. Not really sure why, but it’s happening. And of course, if you live in the Near East right now, your bus might happen to blow up. I don’t really understand why either of these things happen, but when was the last time a public transit bus driver died “in the line of duty” in the United States? (Heartattack or other health-related death doesn’t count. I’m talking driver death related to violence or collisions).
On the by, there is a serious racial aspect to this violence on MAX thing – just yesterday, while riding the yellow line (maybe the 10th time ever?) I was fare checked for the 6th time. I’ve ridden the blue and red lines thousands of times and only been fare checked 3 times. An an institutional level, I suspect it’s overtly racist. Then again, Oregon has one of the more shameful racial histories of any non-seccesionist state; I’m not at all shocked that they’re fare checking primarily in NoPo.
Jason Barbour : The experts say “drilling everywhere” would only increase world supplies by a tenth of a percent (this was in a May 16th USA Today editorial), and would have negligible impact on gas prices.
JK: That sortta depends on which experts. Others say we have more oil than the Saudi’s Then increase it by a few hundred years when you include coal -> oil.
If you decide you are defeated before you start, you ARE defeated and the end result is that we lose our standard of living as we slowly regress to the dark ages. And people die. That is your path, not mine.
Thanks
JK
Not that I don’t appreciate being told to Drill Everywhere, Drill Now!!, but it seems like someone who simply opposes the entire premise of the site is wasting both his time and ours.
Jim has a point. I have read recently that there are a 100 billion barrels of crude in areas of the U.S. that are off limits to drilling and there are possibly 100 to 400 billion barrels in the Bakken field. The latter is presently in play as they say in the oil patch, but may take five or more years to come on line. The former will take a change in laws.
However it takes little or nothing to open the transportation market and allow private companies and individuals to own and operate a transit business be it a bus, jitney, ride sharing cab, or a shuttle of some sort. That in and of itself would help many people especially the poor and elderly on fixed incomes as well as part time workers, especially mothers. These groups are poorly served by the present restrictions and under the present government agency in Portland and across the nation.
We probably have a better chance of developing world peace than getting people out of their cars, especially with the development of plug in vehicles, hybrids, fuels celss, etc.
MW
JK: Before you complain, please note the “per passenger-mile”. The only reason that MAX has killed 20 instead of thousands is that so few people ride MAX. If every trip in Portland were on transit and non were in cars, you would expect the total deaths in Portland to at least double.
You’re attempting to use these numbers (20 deaths in 22 years, and some of those were suicides) in comparing passenger-miles. It’s interesting. How many of the people killed were traveling on MAX? How many people are killed in automobiles while actually traveling? It’s not apples and oranges, it’s apples and floor lamps.
In vehicle-human collisions, a train is more dangerous than a car. For that matter, it’s more dangerous than a motorcycle or a bicycle, because it has much more mass and therefore takes much longer to stop and delivers much more force. This is a given, but is scarcely a reflection of which vehicle is safer, especially for the people traveling in the vehicle.
By the very nature of rail (fixed travel path), anyone who gets hit by a train (heavy or light rail) is located where they are not supposed to be. You could judge safety by how well the rail operator did protecting people from themselves (freight trains don’t have a terribly good record on this in rural areas), but it’s always surprising to have someone with an apparently libertarian viewpoint go out of his way to remove any responsibility from the accident victim in these cases.
And, of course, none of this has anything to do with safety on MAX (or public transit in general), and the likelihood of being the victim of a violent attack by a criminal.
Unfortunately this site is commited to de-energizing the country in an effort to abolish the automobile with irrational policies that seek to essentially ban the horse and buggy before the auto arrives.
For some reason those who decry the use of fossil fuels would have us plunge into economic chaos by blocking the extraction of our own natural resources. Never mind that fuel economy, emissions reductions and replacement technologies are evolving at a steady pace.
The anti-car fanatics just stand people driving.
That leaves them pretending that ped, bike and transit policies can replace the car and truck.
In their minds rising oil prices are something to celebrate.
However it takes little or nothing to open the transportation market and allow private companies and individuals to own and operate a transit business be it a bus, jitney, ride sharing cab, or a shuttle of some sort.
We have private inter-city busses (Greyhound and their alikes), intra-city transit (cabs) all on the private market. We have these things. There is no government monopoly on public transit.
Of course, only something like 20-30% of Tri-Met’s budget is derived from fares; if they charged the “true cost” a bus ride would be around $7 each. Good luck to the private company that wants to charge those rates
“AL: Transit is more closely related to public welfare as opposed to a public utility.”
~~>W-O-W!!
Talk about an extremist point of view!
Sorry, I don’t agree with that at all.
“Thanks
JK”
~~>Your welcome, Al M
“Unlike many the other things mentioned, “transit” and “bike lanes” can be used by anyone, regardless of income level.”
~~>EXACTLY!
“Unfortunately this site is commited to de-energizing the country in an effort to abolish the automobile with irrational policies that seek to essentially ban the horse and buggy before the auto arrives.”
~~>PLEEEEZE! Gimme an aspirin!
“Al M: I hear in Gautemala City, drug gangs are boarding busses and executing drivers on the spot. Not really sure why, but it’s happening.”
~~~>Even jolly old England and the land down under have much worse incidents than anything in the USA. And as far as the USA is concerned, Portland is one of the safest friendliest cities in America. Go ride a bus in San Fran or Chicago or New York, even Seattle. Portland is a piece of cake to drive a bus in.
“However it takes little or nothing to open the transportation market and allow private companies and individuals to own and operate a transit business be it a bus, jitney, ride sharing cab, or a shuttle of some sort.”
~~>I suggest you do a little research on one of the largest free transportation markets in the world, INDIA.
Specifically, THE BLUE LINE of India, then come back here and try to convince me and others how great the free market is.
“In their minds rising oil prices are something to celebrate.”
~~>now that you mention it, YES INDEED! I would love to see the demise of the automobile, not for the same reasons as this site, but my own personal hatred for them!
http://video.nbc5i.com/player/?id=260264#videoid=260264
Getting a back a little bit closer to the original topic, I have some anecdotal good news and bad news about security/fare inspection on MAX:
1. The good news
Yesterday I saw at least nine (!) fare inspectors at Lloyd Center. It appeared that what they were doing was waiting for inbound trains from the I-84 corridor, and checking for fares as people got off the train on the westbound platform. If true, that represents an interesting approach — instead of boarding in small numbers somewhere along the way as people then see them and hop off, they instead cover all the exit doors and catch people exiting the train who should have had a valid fare along their journey. I was not at the station long enough to determine for sure if that was the procedure, but it did appear that they were clustered near where the exit doors would be.
2. The bad news
TriMet had multiple opportunities to sell me a valid fare yesterday, and failed every time. At one location where I was unable to purchase a fare, they had two customer service representatives who also could not sell me a fare. Both the representatives at this station, and a phone representative who I called to report a broken ticket machine, told me the same thing: I would have to ride to the next station, get off, buy a fare, and wait for the next train, or face possible fines. I expressed great frustration at the ongoing problem of failed ticket machines, and requested a supervisor call me to discuss the situation. So far, no call.
I ride often enough that I’m just at the threshold of break-even for buying a pass instead of individual fares, which would solve for me the problem of repeatedly failed ticket machines. But passes don’t help occasional riders, and especially don’t help new riders, who won’t be too happy when they are fined (by a group of 9 inspectors?) because TriMet failed to sell them a ticket at their origin station.
“I would have to ride to the next station, get off, buy a fare, and wait for the next train, or face possible fines”
DISGRACEFUL!
That sounds like a class action lawsuit to me.
The Oregonian has an update about the latest arrest. It also details how 911 had indeed been contacted by a bystander during the attack, but this was unknown to the victim at the time:
Read the full article for more details.
Yes, now TriMet policy is for the (train) operators to announce when they have called 911, it was formerly not policy to do so (and was not done).
I think announcing it is a better option then just laying low.
By the way, I mean its better for the MAX operators to announce, I can see why a bus driver may be nervous about yelling “I called the police” at someone, that may result in a worse situation until the cops arrive.
Speaking of calling the cops via the bus, I just had attended a training at TRIMET where I taped the response to how the alarms work.
Here it is:
http://rantingsofatrimetbusdriver.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-alarms-work.html
MRB writes “We have these things. There is no government monopoly on public transit.”
Sorry MRB the market is closed in Portland as it is in most U.S. cities. Trimet has a monopoly.
“Sorry MRB the market is closed in Portland as it is in most U.S. cities. Trimet has a monopoly.”
If another agency wants to come in to the area to compete with TriMet they may and can, the thing you will notice is that no one will pay full price for a ride ($7 or whatever) over their car, the only reason mass transit works is because it is cheep and it moves people well.
TriMet has government subsidies because they are necessary.
Better yet explain to me why someone would pay $8 to board a bus when they can just spend the money in gas to get where there going a bit quicker and more comfortably not to mention on their own schedules?
Portland used to have private bus systems (I believe 32 companies tried) and they all failed and went out of service before TriMet was created, I do not see why it would be any different now.
“DISGRACEFUL!
That sounds like a class action lawsuit to me.”
Did you ever see this, http://community.livejournal.com/trimet/65219.html (posted by me) Trimet told me that is their solution to TVM problems is just go to another one and miss train, its total crap!
They also “maintenance” their TVMs…..
JK: “If you decide you are defeated before you start, you ARE defeated and the end result is that we lose our standard of living as we slowly regress to the dark ages. And people die. That is your path, not mine.”
No, your path seems to consist of calling for room service because your bed has slid across the room while the Titanic is sinking. And this blog isn’t room service, and even if it was, we don’t f-ing care about your bed, sleep on the other side of the room and do it quietly. People are going to die: if they stave to death while you burn their food supply up in your car, or if climate change floods their crop land, or if you bug room service so much that they are forced to ignore the real issues.
MW: “I have read recently that there are a 100 billion barrels of crude in areas of the U.S. that are off limits to drilling and there are possibly 100 to 400 billion barrels in the Bakken field. The latter is presently in play as they say in the oil patch, but may take five or more years to come on line. The former will take a change in laws.”
In the supermarket checkout line, there was a magazine that said that aliens were stealing all our gas too. But in real news, USGS says that Bakken has less than 4 billion barrels recoverable at Apr 2008 prices/technologies.
Whose the vendor for our ticket machines? Is there some way our smartpark machines (by the way, what’s the working-rate of those things?) to dispense tri-met tix as well?
Or, howabout, any unused SmartPark sticker (valued > fare) is good for Tri-Met fare? A 2hr smart park sticker costs $2.50 ($0.25 = 12 mins, right? $2.50 will probably be the fare soon enough anyhow); which would instantly add hundreds of (working) machines. perhaps a 1hr minimum for the parking sticker would be in order ($1.25). Maybe the devices can be repurposed to also dispense a separate tri-met fare device.
Matthew –
I don’t know if you’re speaking in terms of the analogy or if by using “you” in the context of “we don’t care about” was directed at the original commenter… please be careful not to venture into personal attack territory. Thanks.
“No, your path seems to consist of calling for room service because your bed has slid across the room while the Titanic is sinking.”
“In the supermarket checkout line, there was a magazine that said that aliens were stealing all our gas too.”
hehehehehehe……….
GOOD ONE MATHEW!
LOL!!LOL!!
“Or, howabout, any unused SmartPark sticker (valued > fare) is good for Tri-Met fare? A 2hr smart park sticker costs $2.50 ($0.25 = 12 mins, right? $2.50 will probably be the fare soon enough anyhow); which would instantly add hundreds of (working) machines. perhaps a 1hr minimum for the parking sticker would be in order ($1.25). Maybe the devices can be repurposed to also dispense a separate tri-met fare device.”
ALL GREAT IDEAS, why can’t they move forward on any of this is beyond me.
Not only are these machines out of order;
THEY ACTUALLY STEAL PEOPLES MONEY!
Poor migrant laborers will put in $60 for the pass and then get ripped off, no pass, no money, it’s shameful, disgraceful, why doesn’t somebody take this whole thing into court?
Then things will get fixed!
OFF TOPIC,
but I want you folks to see how they plan to destroy Obama, this is not a joke, this is how the election will be lost;
http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036
Stick around the play has just begun.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ayj1uo_gdNI4&refer=home
“Best of all, the Bakken could be huge. The U.S. Geological Survey’s Leigh Price, a Denver geochemist who died of a heart attack in 2000, estimated that the Bakken might hold a whopping 413 billion barrels. If so, it would dwarf Saudi Arabia’s Ghawar, the world’s biggest field, which has produced about 55 billion barrels.”
Speaking of oil drilling, did y’all see the movie
THERE WILL BE BLOOD,
Great movie about the beginnings of the oil industry in America.
Really great.
Portland used to have private bus systems (I believe 32 companies tried) and they all failed and went out of service before TriMet was created, I do not see why it would be any different now.
They did not go out of service before Tri-Met was created.
See TriMet’s history page: http://www.trimet.org/about/history/trimet_story.htm
Those various private companies ultimately consolidated under Rose City Transit, and a few smaller companies that served the rural areas (i.e. to Molalla and Estacada, and much of Washington County). These systems were taken over by TriMet – they did not shut down, causing a lapse of service before TriMet began operations.
The reasons that these companies “failed” was that they were (just as taxi cabs and most utilities are today) heavily regulated by the City or other agencies. So their fares were fixed by the City, which refused to implement a fare increase that was requested.
TriMet, as a government entity, is exempt from regulation from other agencies, so TriMet legally could charge $5 fares, with having only one “public hearing” (basically a hearing which is scheduled in advance, has at least three seats open to anyone that walks in the door, and offers those three individuals at least three minutes to talk, but with no obligation to respond to these individuals) before voting on and approving the fare increase. Now, a $5 fare is pretty unreasonable, but legally there is nothing stopping TriMet from doing it. (Heck, TriMet could charge different fares for MAX riders and bus riders – and I’m sure Fred Hansen would be THRILLED to do it.)
Further, TriMet is largely exempt from taxation from other agencies, so a competitor to TriMet would be subject to ODOT weight/mile tax, vehicle registration fees, property taxes, business income taxes, so on and so forth. A private carrier would also be designated a federal motor carrier and as such subject to federal laws and possible regulation by the Surface Transportation Board (including the requirement to file for authority to operate).
Finally, TriMet has the right to assess property and income taxes. A private business obiviously cannot do that.
From a business perspective, there will not be competition to TriMet unless it is another governmental transit agency that provides it (i.e. SMART, C-Tran). Right now here is technically competition between downtown Portland and Delta Park, and again from Delta Park and Hayden Island (where I believe C-Tran honors TriMet fares). Now, the only real difference between a TriMet line 6 bus and a C-Tran line 41/44/47 bus is the paint scheme; the busses all make the same stops.
I have heard that private bus companies do have some legal limitations on how far they can provide service which is similiar to that of a transit agency but I can’t quote the law. However they could be subject to having to apply for authority with ODOT’s Motor Carrier Division and the Surface Transportation Board, and certainly TriMet’s legal team would argue against the application on the grounds that these busses would not pay for the “right” to use “TriMet’s” Transit Mall and other facilities, and thus are getting an unfair “subsidy” (at the same time that these businesses would be fully expected to pay TriMet’s taxes).
To make a long story short, TriMet has no incentive to improve, because it’s “customers” aren’t the residents and riders of its district, it is the politicians of other governing bodies (i.e. cities, counties, Metro) and Developers who petition TriMet to build projects to benefit them. TriMet has no competition to worry about. And if there is a decrease in farebox revenues, TriMet will continue to count on income and property tax revenues.
Where’s the truth?.
http://www.counterpunch.org/fiyouzat06132008.html
According to a report prepared by the Dept of Interior, for the U.S. Congress, dated February 2006, the amount of actually recoverable oil available to the U.S. exploiters is more than five times the ‘official’ 21 billion barrels. “The total endowment of technically recoverable oil and gas on the [U.S. Outer Continental Shelf] is comprised of known resources—i.e., cumulative production, and estimates of remaining proved and unproved reserves and reserves appreciation—plus estimates of undiscovered resources. The estimate of the total hydrocarbon endowment … is 115.4 billion barrels of oil (Bbo) and 633.6 trillion cubic feet of gas,” (from the Executive Summary, p. vi-vii, emphasis added).
For comparison, the current proven reserves the Iraqis are ‘sitting on’ is likewise 115 Bbo.
MRB –
Regarding the parking meters, there has been some discussion of using those on streetcars, as they seem to be more reliable than the ones currently in use, and occupy less space.
It would certainly solve a lot of problems if these compact units could be placed on MAX trains. They don’t take up a lot of room, and they wouldn’t be used as the primary means of ticket sales, but as a backup. If the machines are broken on a platform, just get on the train and use the on-board machine. If that’s broken too, and a fare inspector demands to see your fare, you can simply point at the broken machine — and hopping between MAX cars at a stop to get to another on-board machine doesn’t cause the kind of delay or inconvenience as waiting for another train does.
Incidentally, the parking meters *are* in use as ticket machines at one transit property: The Aerial Tram. They have two at the base, and I’ve never seen them out-of-order.
The downside is that these machines only take coins and debit. The biggest problem with ticket machines on both MAX and the streetcar comes from the bill changers. If our country would move to coins as a primary means of currency for the dollar, we could have a lot better reliability and longevity in our vending machines.
This discussion of available oil reserves has gone completely off-topic. Please keep this thread at about the interrelated topics of MAX/Transit safety/security/fare evasion, etc… Thanks.
The downside is that these machines only take coins and debit. The biggest problem with ticket machines on both MAX and the streetcar comes from the bill changers.
Really? i’ve only ever had problems when trying to use a card (instantly rejected, or apparently rejected but still prints tickets, or something. Considering vending machines taking bills is pretty old technology…
who’s the vender of our machines? Can we get our politicos to put some pressure on them?
MRB –
I don’t know about the vendors. The original machines (the ones without the big back-lighted LCD screens) are over 20 years old, and the “newer” machines are generally about 10 years old, having been introduced throughout the system with westside MAX. The newest machines are along Interstate MAX, and I haven’t tested those on a routine basis.
When Al and I did our one-night “The late-night MAX experience” video, we found a wide variety of failures. But for the machines that didn’t _completely_ fail, they would usually accept coins. Except for one, which didn’t like any quarters I fed it.
You are correct that credit/debit cards are a problem, and I usually use/test with cash, so I don’t know how much of a problem the cards are in relation to other problems. I do know that one time (without my camera, so I have no record) that all five machines in Pioneer Courthouse Square were failing to work in one way or another, including the card-enabled machines.
We hope to do another video soon — next time I’ll also attempt debit card transactions, where available.
It’s also been suggested to me, by more than one source (but I’ve never seen any direct evidence) that the machines are often vandalized. It is speculated/alleged that this vandalism is used so that the perpetrators can claim malfunctioning machines and ride for free. Repeat: I have no proof of this, but it is a rumor that has reached me from more than one usually-trustworthy source.
If we move to augment the system with redundant on-board ticket machines as I suggested above, then we could at least catch vandals on video and determine the frequency at which this happens. If the current platform machines aren’t in range of surveillance, cameras should be added.
“It’s also been suggested to me, by more than one source (but I’ve never seen any direct evidence) that the machines are often vandalized. It is speculated/alleged that this vandalism is used so that the perpetrators can claim malfunctioning machines and ride for free. Repeat: I have no proof of this, but it is a rumor that has reached me from more than one usually-trustworthy source.”
Here is a clip of a machine tech at trimet where he makes that accusation.
http://amargul.blogspot.com/2008/01/master-ticket-tech-speaks.html
I personally HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT HAPPEN, and I ride the max almost daily, at all hours.
NOT ONCE HAVE I SEEN THIS HAPPEN.
And when I travel on the MAX, I do NOT wear my uniform.
I think its suspicious too.
It seems to me that there is a public interest in enacting laws and penalties specific to behavior aboard a public transit vehicle.
Given that we (the public) invest hundreds of millions in this system, it is a reasonable expectation that deadbeat thugs such as these suspects do not squander the investment by scaring riders off. I’d suggest that minimum prison sentences and other penalties should be multiplied for violent crime aboard any public transit vehicle. Perhaps more flexibiltiy in penalizing minors for violent crimes should also be employed.
The intended result would be that criminals would be inclined to take their behavior somewhere else – or better yet, nowhere at all.
I wonder what the legalities of this would be…
There are already some fairly severe ones. BTW (even though this is in Washington State), C-TRAN has a display on all their buses titled “Unlawful Bus Conduct” that says there could be up to (I believe) a $1,000 fine and/or 30 days in jail.
Always a good idea to read the actual TriMet Code, or whatever the code of conduct is for the system you’re trying to use. I’m not talking about the “how to ride” pages that also explains how to read the timetables and what bus stops are. I’m talking about the actual document that spells it out. On some systems, the “how to ride” pages/literature and the rules are contradictory to each other!
Not sure how Oregon works either, and I’m obviously not a lawyer, but probably the most “severe” that I’ve heard of in Oregon is in the ORS and called ‘Interference with Transit Operations,’ which I hear is used to either add an additional charge onto a list, or if police want to charge someone with something for what happened on public transit, but can’t figure out another way to do it.
Now to state the obvious for people finding this post on search engines, and to cover my (ahem): this post is in no way intended as a substitute for professional legal advice. If you have a legal concern, please contact a lawyer. Thank you.
“It seems to me that there is a public interest in enacting laws and penalties specific to behavior aboard a public transit vehicle.”
It’s a felony to attack a transit operator or impeded the movement of a transit vehicle.
I’m totally against “mandatory sentencing” of any kind. The only purpose they serve is to ensure that anyone who commits a crime will either live a lifetime of poverty, or continue to commit crime once they are out. The only alternative would be life in prison, at which point, we might as well start executing them.
Certainly, while robber-baron CEO’s are sending thousands and thousands of your fellow Americans to poor house via outright theft, we shouldn’t be focusing on “tough on (unintelligent) criminals”. I mean, who do you think tougher sentences effect? The common thug who can’t control their impulses and lash out against society, or the businessperson who institutionalizes their own criminal conduct?
I think more needs to be done in the area of applying mild punishments for entry-level bad behavior, where much of this goes unpunished today… and more focus on identifying and apprehending serious offenders and applying existing laws.
I’m wary of adding substantially increased penalties until it is demonstrated that we’re already fully utilizing the legal avenues available to us already.
I’m talking about the actual document that spells it out. On some systems, the “how to ride” pages/literature and the rules are contradictory to each other!
Case in point:
TriMet’s fares website for the duration of a “two hour ticket”:
“2-Hour Ticket
Valid for one trip on TriMet, including any combination of buses, MAX and Portland Streetcar. Your validated ticket is good for up to two hours (check the expiration time shown).”
(source: http://www.trimet.org/fares/index.htm)
TriMet Code 19.25:
“Bus transfers shall be issued to be valid for one hour past the scheduled end of the trip time for
the bus on weekdays, two hours on weekends. The end of the trip is generally the Mall in
Downtown Portland, a transit center, or the end of the line.”
(source: http://www.trimet.org/pdfs/code/TriMet_Code_Chapter_19.pdf)
This means: if I board a line 12 bus in Sherwood at 7:00 AM, the bus arrives at 4th & Main at 8:02 AM, my transfer should be good for a minimum until 9:02 AM per TriMet code.
That is, if “line” means the Barbur portion of the line, or whether 12-B/12-S is one contiguous line in which case my transfer should be good for an even longer period of time.
“That is, if “line” means the Barbur portion of the line, or whether 12-B/12-S is one contiguous line in which case my transfer should be good for an even longer period of time.”
The transfer system is a disgrace.
Some drivers really cheap out on the transfers.
I don’t enforce any of them, and I am not the only one.
Not only are there too many driver mistakes in issuing transfers, but I can’t read them anyway.
I don’t have time to deal with that nonsense.
One of the many issues that TRIMET needs to deal with.
Don’t hold your breath.
Remember-
The bottom line when your riding TRIMET bus service is that you are dealing with the ethics of that particular driver.
I’m glad to report that there is a SOLID MAJORITY of TRIMET bus drivers who really want to help and do the right thing.
Unfortunately, there is a minority that just don’t give a damn, and there are a variety of reasons why that could happen.
It’s always that minority that makes the company look bad and is an embarrassment to the rest of us who really want to make the whole thing work properly.
Erik has the additional problem of being a rider on the most notorious unreliable bus route, the 12.
Here you are dealing with bus drivers who have that absolutely horrible line, that just goes on and on forever, plus some of them are ridiculously late, eventually the drivers just don’t give a damn.
And who pays for that in the end?
The passengers of course.
Al M
Matthew Says: People are going to die: if they stave to death while you burn their food supply up in your car,
JK: [Moderator: Personally directed remark removed. Neutral version of JK’s point: The incorrect idea of the world running out of oil has caused food supplies to be used as fuel.]
Matthew Says: or if climate change floods their crop land,
JK: Oh, then how come ocean levels have been falling lately? see: icecap.us/images/uploads/SeaLevel_TOPEX.jpg
Matthew Says: or if you bug room service so much that they are forced to ignore the real issues.
JK: You are the one coming up with imaginary goblins to scare little children. Like peak oil as the greens ban oil exploration, global warming as the world has been cooling for up to ten years (depends on which major data source you use).
Hey Matthew – show me a peer reviewed paper that actually shows that CO2 can cause dangerous warming at today’s concentrations?
Matthew Says: In the supermarket checkout line, there was a magazine that said that aliens were stealing all our gas too.
JK: Glad to see you broadening your reading from the sierra club weekly reader.
Matthew Says: But in real news, USGS says that Bakken has less than 4 billion barrels recoverable at Apr 2008 prices/technologies.
JK: That is VERY GOOD news, because that means many times that will be recovered as technology gets better. (You make the same mistake as most prophets of doom: assume man will not increase his knowledge as other things change. Really pretty silly don’t you think?)
Thanks
JK
(Really pretty silly don’t you think?)
Yea JK, I do think you are pretty silly.
Thanks;
Al M
JK – The oil reserves discussion is off-topic for this thread. This has already been stated. I let your comment stand (except for the personal remark), but that’s all for this thread.
Al – Drop it. :-)
Bob-
:-D
I have not joined in your discussion at this site before (although I have read with interest many of the posts)but wanted to add my voice on this.
Mr. Karlock…your response (even though it may have been tongue in cheek) regarding the use of a 357 magnum for protection on public transit just reiterates my concerns over your stand on light rail. It’s not funny.
I have asked TriMet officials to look into a way to use CCTV in a manner similar to ODOT’s use of monitoring traffic conditions as a test for the Milwaukie light rail project – including the cameras on our proposed station at Lake Road. We are hoping the feeds can be sent to the Internet and then run on the local community access channel where there will be more eyes looking for folks trying to commit crime.
The world is not safe. Drunk drivers are not safe. Overworked semi-truck drivers on our highways are not safe. That doesn’t mean we stop the use or cars and trucks. It just means we find ways to lessen the chances of bad things happening.
And, as for the purchasing of tickets continuing to be a problem…that is one of my frustrations as well and I will again bring that issue to the attention of the folks at the agency.
Milwaukie Councilor Deborah Barnes