Everything’s relative. I thought I’d start this thread to invite readers to compare Portland’s transport situation with other cities’, either those we think are in better shape, or those we think are in worse shape. I think (hope) the comparisons will help us keep our perspective. I’ve going to start off with two brief stories, one from Rotterdam, one from Los Angeles.
Rotterdam, Netherlands, is one of the largest ports in the world, and is a “sister port” of Seattle. The city and metropolitan area populations are comparable to those of Portland. Rotterdam does have a couple of metro (subway/elevated) lines and a number of streetcar lines. The central city was bombed in 1940, as a prelude to the German invasion. After WW II, the downtown was completely rebuilt in postwar architectural style. The metro opened in 1968 and has been extended a number of times.
Now the anecdote: I’m freely translating from the January 2008 issue of Het Openbaar Vervoer, a Dutch e-zine, New Years Eve hooligans once again caused heavy damage to public and private property. RET (Rotterdamsche Elektrische Tramweg, the local TriMet) experienced heavy damage to metro stations, particularly TVM’s, windows, and escalators. In one station, a cherry bomb blew up a very expensive soft drink machine. Also, many bus and streetcar shelters were heavily damaged. Because vandalism isn’t covered by insurance, RET must step up and cover the damage itself. An angry managing director Peters (RET’s Fred Hansen) estimates the damage at a minimum at several hundred thousand euros (1 euro = about $1.50 these days), but he wouldn’t be surprised if it reached close to a million. RET will try to collect the damages from the perps, using security camera videos as evidence. In consultation with the justice ministry and the civil courts, RET has been trying for two years to compel restitution from transport system vandals.
COMMENT FROM MIKE: So we think we have a crime wave in Portland? As I said, everything’s relative.
Since 1990, Los Angeles has opened several light-rail lines and a full-scale subway line. As reported in the January 2008 Railfan and Railroad (paper magazine),
“In October 2006, the federal judge overseeing the transit authority decided the MTA had complied with a ruling to improve bus service. The suit was brought ten years ago by a bus riders’ group that contended the MTA was spending too much on rail for upper-income residents and not enough on bus service for low-income people. The MTA, under the court order, bought 1,472 natural-gas-powered buses, boosted annual service by 1.3 million hours, and increased security.”
COMMENT FROM MIKE: In reading this blog regularly, I’ve seen a number of complaints alleging TriMet is allowing bus service to deteriorate as it builds up the rail system. Had it gotten sufficiently worse to warrant a lawsuit? If so, where’s the Portland equivalent of that bus riders’ group? They ought to be saying to TriMet, “See you in court.”
Mike
60 responses to “So You Think We’ve Got Problems?”
Well the commonality is “mass transit”. It seems that mass transit is a conduit for crime no matter where you go! Even here in Salem there are dishevelled looking people and punks (albeit a MUCH smaller number) harassing people for money and they all hang out near the transit mall.
I actually think mass transit isn’t as much a conduit for crime as much as it’s a target of crime – it’s there, it’s a government agency, and everyone knows where it is. When I’ve been in Salem in the past I’ve seen the people you’re talking about, Greg – most of them seem to congregate on the far side of the transit center, well past the last bank of bus bays, and although it doesn’t seem like it they don’t seem to be annoying anyone but themselves.
I went over to LA County’s metro.net transit website, and didn’t see anything about what Mike posted about, however they also seem to be overhauling their “Customer Code of Conduct” – I wonder if a similar process will happen here as part of the ‘safety and security measures.’
GTinSalem Says:
Well the commonality is “mass transit”. It seems that mass transit is a conduit for crime no matter where you go! Even here in Salem there are dishevelled looking people and punks (albeit a MUCH smaller number) harassing people for money and they all hang out near the transit mall.
As far as I know, it is not a crime to be homeless or look disheveled, or even to ask others for money. Maybe you find it unpleasant, but it’s not criminal unless the panhandling becomes aggressive.
I walk around Old Town and the Pearl all the time. I’m often asked for change; I respond in the negative; that’s that. For over 30 years I worked in downtown DC, where the street-people population is much larger than here. In both DC and Portland, I have often been asked for spare change, but never harassed. Usually the panhandler mutters “have a good day” or some such thing, which they might mean ironically.
Have I just been lucky? I certainly haven’t seen evidence of epidemic harassment.
Indeed, one reason I posted the Rotterdam story was to make us aware that in some cities there is real crime around the transit system. Portland — indeed, the US in general — is very tame by comparison. I doubt any trains or buses were trashed or set afire here on New Year’s Eve, even though there were a lot of inebriated people on the streets.
Even in Rotterdam, the crime is mostly vandalism. Yes, vandalism is a crime, but not on the same scale as a bodily attack on a passenger. I think we were all so shocked by the Gresham beating because it was so rare.
Mike
Portland’s transit system is probably the best in the US for a city our size, and is not too far off from many European cities of similar size, IMHO. In Chicago, a city of much greater means, they are now talking about drastic fare hikes and service cuts unless the state intervenes. Their system is aging, failing to expand to increase ridership, decrepit in some cases, and the crime makes our system look like the Disney monorail.
Other small wins:
– Our system provides (limited) late night service. Many cities, including major cities like Paris, Stockholm, etc stop service at midnight. After that, it’s a cab.
– Fares are reasonable. Not the lowest, but try buying a BART ticket – $5+ from the airport to downtown. Most US cities have no high-capcity transit to airport, some have no attractive service at all (just sporadic bus service).
– Our system is expanding in a regionally-sensitive fashion. Cities and counties work together (with exceptions) here, and transit share seems to be growing. I can’t think of a US city that is expanding its HCT network as effectively.
– Voters consistently support transit here. They may not support every initiative, but they still support the overall concept. Most cities have a much broader opponent base to overcome.
Of course, these are anecdotal observations. And we are lucky to have state and regional government supportive to the metro area’s cause. Most states undermine their cities’ efforts, forcing giant freeway projects on the cities, and transit funding is always on the chopping block. No other city has such coordinated regional cooperation. Things are not perfect here, but they are better than most anywhere else.
As far as I know, it is not a crime to be homeless or look disheveled, or even to ask others for money. Maybe you find it unpleasant, but it’s not criminal unless the panhandling becomes aggressive
Well it should be…. Vagrancy is a public nuisance and that’s why a lot of people are scared to go downtown to go shopping and why there are so many stores boarded up and people instead go to places like Washington Square or Woodburn Company Stores where they aren’t harassed while shopping.
Moderator Intervention:
Greg, I’m going to let your comment, above, stand because you made it politely and the topic here does relate to the conditions of transit systems around the country which can include issues with the homeless.
However, I’m not going to let PortlandTransport degenerate into a forum where proposals to lock away the homeless are seriously discussed. Leaving aside my own judgements of your views, such proposals would be implemented by governmental bodies other than transit agencies, so that falls squarely in the bounds of being “off topic”.
Please no further suggestions of making homelessness illegal as some sort of solution to transit system problems.
Since you are such a fan of zero-tolerance policies, I’m hereby implementing a zero-tolerance policy on further discussion along these lines.
I’ve always thought Paris had a great system, even if it is overcrowded. Buses run every 8 minutes, the subways used to be nice, now they are run down.
NYC has the best system in the world as far as I am concerned. The subway system there is truly incredible. Fast, efficient, and safe.
I like Boston too, excellent subways, trolleys, and buses.
Those three cities make Portland look like a cow town with its slow,cumbersome and time consuming
transit system.
But I keep hearing;
“For a city the size of Portland, its great”
I don’t know who ever came up with “America’s #1 transit system” cause NY,
MUNI,
Boston,
Seattle’s are pretty damn good as far as I am concerned.
Good observations, for the most part, Al. I’ve spent a lot of time in NY and Boston, too, as well as Europe. The subway systems in NY and Boston are extensive, but they’re not without their problems either.
There are plenty of underserved sections of New York yet, even with the miles of rail system they have. Construction has finally begun on the 2nd Ave. Subway line which should relieve overcrowding on the Lex. Ave. line. But, it’s taken 40+ years to get that built. Major portions of Queens and Brooklyn are without service.
Both NY and Boston are very poor in terms of access for people with disabilities. To be fair, their systems were built a hundred years ago and retrofitting will cost millions of dollars.
Both systems have some pretty craptastic stations on their lines. Water leakage, rats, years of accumulated grime and neglect, poor lighting, unintelligible PA systems. Plus, there’s the usual (small) percentage of creepy people, too.
Rail connections to the airports in both cities are clunky compared to MAX. The MTA doesn’t even go to LaGuardia. (Newark is the best connection to Manhattan via train).
The MAX alignment downtown is a compromise – we all know that. At some point, the tracks are going to need to be placed underground which will speed up the system tremendously.
The “#1 Transit System in America” was an award from, like, 10 years ago. I don’t think that anyone in an official capacity refers to TriMet in that regard. But, there’s a lot to like about MAX too, and it compares favorably to the NY and Boston systems, even more so as new routes come online.
The “#1 Transit System in America” was an award from, like, 10 years ago.
Nineteen! :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Public_Transportation_Association&oldid=145947798
That’s interesting Bob!
I always wondered about that.
So your the best transit system in America for one year eh?
Sounds like some sort of Advertising gimmick to me!
Al, I’m not sure I would prefer MUNI over Tri-Met. MUNI has a lot of rolling stock and good headways, in theory. However, “bunching” is a massive problem on every line, which severely compromises headways — yeah, you’ll get 6-8 buses an hour, but they always come in groups of 2 or 3, with long gaps in between. Talk about safety issues — so far this year, two people have been killed by MUNI vehicles, and I believe four or five more injured. And that’s not even on board the vehicles! The average speed for the system is a measly 8 mph, which means that it generally takes over an hour to go the less-than-seven miles from one side of town to the other. Yes, MUNI’s average daily ridership is sky-high, almost equal to the population of San Francisco — but this is as much a factor of a captive ridership base (very little parking, low car ownership rate, high density of development near transit) as anything to do with service levels. The on-time rate has never broken 72%, despite a voter mandate to increase it to at least 85%.
On the other hand, MUNI operates an extensive trolley, trolleybus, light rail and diesel bus system, and they have deployed a rather large fleet of hybrid diesel buses as well. They will get you around from point A to point B — eventually. But the buses sure do smell funny a lot of the time, and many people claim that the infamous “MUNI smell” is, in fact, urine.
Garlynn-
It is san fran ya know!
Trimet is great;
*depending on where you live within the district*
Hell BART connecting hayward and SF is way superior to MAX connecting Gresham to Portland. It’s a much longer connection too!
The older cities are certainly less clean, basically cause they are older cities.
Portland is on its way to getting crapped up just like all the other cities that have too many people in them!
The Los Angeles legal suit, ‘rail vs bus’, wasn’t fair. The majority of LA’s rail passengers are minorities and low-income. The suit came during the Red Line subway construction which is, of course, very expensive. This led to the discontinuation of plans to extend that subway line and more focus on surface rail – the Gold Line to Pasadena, the East LA line, the Aqua Line to Culver City and their extensions.
Metropolitan transit sytems work better when light rail is integrated into bus systems. LRT is more expensive, but in the end it makes bus systems work better.
I’ll wager that Amsterdam’s transit vandals have fallen under the influence of right wing wackadoodle nutjobs. Hitler was hired to make German auto manufacturing a profitable investment for General Motors. The 1936 Chrysler le Baron was very much German engineering and styling. I think Ford manufacturing in Germany was engine and drivetrain. During WWII, US carpooling advertizements read, “When you drive alone, you drive with Hitler.” They could’ve read, “When you drive, you drive with Hitler.”
http://urbanhabitat.org/node/344
The bus system of Curitiba, Brazil, exemplifies a model Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system, and plays a large part in making this a livable city. The buses run frequently—some as often as every 90 seconds—and reliably, and the stations are convenient, well-designed, comfortable, and attractive. Consequently, Curitiba has one of the most heavily used, yet low-cost, transit systems in the world. It offers many of the features of a subway system—vehicle movements unimpeded by traffic signals and congestion, fare collection prior to boarding, quick passenger loading and unloading—but it is above ground and visible. Around 70 percent of Curitiba’s commuters use the BRT to travel to work, resulting in congestion-free streets and pollution-free air for the 2.2 million inhabitants of greater Curitiba.
These two replies I have posted are of a positive nature. Hope you enjoy and maybe someone, somewhere will learn something.
Thanks,
MW
http://www.apta.com/services/intnatl/intfocus/scandin.cfm
Transit Study Mission Examines Scandinavian Models
of Contracting Out Bus, Rail Services
The sixth international transit study mission,
which took a close look at Scandinavian models of
contracting out bus and rail services, brought 13
transit managers from across the U.S. to three
Scandinavian countries during two weeks in May and
June. Led by Shirley DeLibero, the mission formed
part of the International Transit Study Program, a
component of the Transit Cooperative Research
Program, which is funded annually by a grant from
the Federal Transit Administration. The TCRP is
authorized under the ISTEA legislation and a peer
panel selects participants, nominated by their
general managers. The ITSP is managed by the Eno
Transportation Foundation under contract to the
National Academy of Sciences.
By Shirley A. DeLibero
Executive Director
New Jersey Transit Corporation
Newark, N.J.
Privatization of bus and rail services has become
the norm in the three Scandinavian countries I
visited this spring with 12 participants in the
International Transit Study Program. Sponsored by
the Transit Cooperative Research Program, our trip
focused on how cities in Finland, Sweden, and
Denmark have implemented programs to contract out
bus and rail operations.
Through this report, as well as others that will
be presented by team members, we will share what
we learned with the transit industry.
During our trip, I found two key reasons for
privatization efforts succeeding in Scandinavia.
First, transit system operating personnel-drivers
and mechanics-are able to move with their work and
receive the same pay and benefits during their
first year with a new operator. In addition, union
agreements are renegotiated for subsequent years
of the operating contract, with changes minimal
and generally related to benefits. Overall, I felt
the real savings came from eliminating layers of
middle management personnel.
A second factor is the emphasis on quality
control. All operating contracts have strong
service quality requirements. Most use a system of
both bonus and penalty payments to ensure
compliance; many properties incorporate customer
survey results into contractor performance
evaluations.
The customer clearly comes first at the transit
properties we visited. All were impressive in
terms of cleanliness, commitment to on-time
performance, and the condition of revenue
equipment. It is very easy to move between transit
systems. Passenger areas are well lit and well
labeled. I didn’t have problems buying the right
ticket for the trips we made.
These systems spend a lot of time and money making
it easy for riders to use transit-and they have
to, because mass transit carries about a third of
all trips and as much as 70 percent of commuter
trips in metropolitan areas.
Below I describe contracts implemented in the
countries we visited.
Finland
Since 1994, the Helsinki Metropolitan Area
Council, known as YTV, has competitively
contracted its bus services that operate
throughout the four-city capital area. While the
city of Helsinki continues to own and operate its
own municipal bus system, regional services under
YTV make up about 40 percent of the region’s
transit service, and are now operated by 14
private firms. By purchasing two former municipal
bus companies, Linjebuss and Swebus, Sweden’s two
largest bus companies have used the competitive
bid process to enter the Finnish market.
YTV awards bus service contracts on the basis of
price and a variety of service quality factors,
including fleet condition, customer service,
quality assurance programs, garage location, and
contractor experience. On a 100-point scale, price
accounts for 75 points, fleet quality 15 points,
and other quality factors for up to 10 points.
Competitive bidding has led to a 30 percent
reduction in operating costs and a reduction in
municipal subsidies. Bus fares have been cut by 12
percent during a three-year period, and service
has been expanded by about 5 percent. Few problems
have occurred during changeovers between
transportation firms and customer complaints have
not increased.
While bus operators have been able to move with
their work, they lose seniority benefits and, in
some instances, their contract terms have
worsened.
Sweden
Since 1993, Stockholm Transport (SL) has procured
all its public transit operations through open
competition. Today, approximately 70 percent of
the bus and rail lines in the metropolitan area
are operated under contract-a change that has
produced savings of $145 million a year and
garnered a cut in governmental subsidies. Farebox
recovery has increased from below 30 percent in
the 1980s to 44 percent last year.
With approximately 70 percent of the region’s bus
service contracted out, national carriers Swebus
and Linjebuss have won the majority of bids, and
currently operate about 3,000 of the 7,000 buses
in urban revenue service.
SL’s bus operations contracts use a system of
rewards and penalties to ensure quality control.
For urban bus services, annual passenger surveys
are used to assess on-time performance, vehicle
cleanliness, passenger information, and customer
service. Using the surveys as incentives,
contractors whose customers report performance
exceeding minimum standards by 2 percent are
rewarded with bonuses of approximately $26,000 and
another $13,000 for each additional percentage
point. Conversely, contractors whose performance
falls 2 percent below minimum standards are
charged $26,000 and $13,000 for each additional
point. Penalties are also deducted for significant
service delays not reported and for reported cases
of driver misconduct.
SL has also awarded contracts for operating its
three metro rail lines that provide over a million
passenger trips a day. In addition, the
Rosiagsbanan suburban railway service, providing
over 24,000 daily passenger trips, and tram
services, providing over 10,000 daily trips, are
contracted out. Beginning in 2000, commuter rail
services, providing 200,000 daily passenger trips,
will be contracted out; the operation of a new
light rail system due to open in 1999 will be
contracted out.
Rail operations contracts cover “overall
responsibility for quality with respect to
customers, planning operations, and rail traffic
control, manning and technical maintenance of
rolling stock.” SL normally leases vehicles to
contractors and owns the tracks and facilities. In
some instances, station staffing is also
contracted out. Personnel displaced by contract
operations are to join the new operator. Service
contracts are awarded for five-to-10year periods.
In Gothenburg, the former public transit authority
was converted in 1989 into a city-owned holding
company. To date, over two thirds of Gothenburg’s
bus routes have been contracted out. GS, the
holding company, has won over half of the
contracts put out for bid, and Linjebuss has won
the remainder of the contracts.
Transit costs in Gothenburg have been cut by 30
percent, in large part due to privatization. But
service changes have also been made. Bus service
between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. was eliminated to
reduce costs, a decision that riders found
unacceptable. In a compromise, service was
restored; however, nighttime fares were doubled
and discounts eliminated. The service is now
self-supporting and well used by riders.
Denmark
Copenhagen Transport, known as HT, is a regional
authority overseeing transit services in the three
counties and two cities that make up the
metropolitan area. Two years ago, the Danish
parliament mandated fully contracting out bus
operations in the region by 2002. As a result,
HT’s bus operations were spun off into an
independent company known as BD or Bus Danmark. To
date, about two thirds of the bus routes have been
contracted out to 12 providers. BD has won the
largest share of the contracts.
HT uses a system of sanctions and incentives to
ensure high quality service from contractors.
Missed or early trips, missing fares, use of a
vehicle type not consistent with the contract, and
incorrect signage all result in sanctions on the
contractor. Two-and-a-half percent of the value of
HT’s contracts is set aside as a quality bonus
pool for contractors with the best performance. HT
also uses customer surveys in evaluating
contractor performance. Factors surveyed include
vehicle cleanliness, vehicle temperature and
ventilation, on-time performance, and operator
driving skills and route knowledge.
I noted a particularly interesting marketing
effort in Copenhagen. Customers were given video
cameras to film their own observations of the
transit system. The footage was used in a
successful advertising campaign. HT found that
this campaign not only cost less than normal
campaigns, but was more effective because of the
personal involvement of its customers.
That is awesome! If we are so “European” we should sell off TriMet, the Streetcar and the Amtrak’s Cascades Service to a private company and let them turn it into a profitable venture.
Greg,
It is important to note that in each case, there is still a transit authority or other governmental agency that specifically oversees and monitors those contracts. So, TriMet would still be responsible for the procurement process, contract negotiation, oversight and most likely the strategic planning in the private contracting scenario.
And, Portland Streetcar Inc. is a bit like a private company that operates an aspect of a total transit system (in coordination with the city and metropolitan transit authority). Just a bit..
The Los Angeles legal suit, ‘rail vs bus’, wasn’t fair.
Wasn’t fair to who, rail advocates?
Let’s see what the 1996 consent degree did (and compare to TriMet):
Saved Monthly Bus Pass from Elimination
Established Bi-Weekly & Weekly Bus Pass (TriMet only recently added the seven day scratch-it pass; prior to then there were only daily and monthly passes.)
No fare increase for 9 years
(TriMet’s fares have increased drastically in the last several years)
75¢ Night Fare (9pm-5am)
(TriMet doesn’t even have “owl” service.)
1,800+ New Compressed Natural Gas Replacement Buses
(TriMet’s fleet is 100% diesel, save for two hybrid busses. TriMet has zero interest in “cleaning up” its bus fleet, save for biodiesel and particulate filters – the first batch was actually given to them free from the engine manufacturer because TriMet wouldn’t pay for it themselves)
More Than 550 New CNG Expansion Buses
(bringing the MTA bus fleet to over 2,400)
(TriMet has not expanded bus service in at least a decade.)
Largest Clean Fuel Fleet in the county
(Prevented: 33 premature deaths, 805 asthma attacks, & 7,000 lost work days)
(already mentioned)
Expansion of Rapid Bus System & Improved Service Standards
(TriMet has no rapid bus, no service standards, and has halted expansion of Frequent Service lines. Further my “Frequent Service” bus line frequently runs late (today my outbound bus was 12 minutes late) and there is no accountability to improve service or demand quality performance.)
Saved Night Owl Bus Service & Reversed Bus Service Cuts
(No owl service, bus service continues to be cut.)
1 Million+ Annual Bus Service Hours Added
(Bus service has been consistently cut for several years.)
12% Increase in Bus Ridership
(two years of bus ridership declines)
And if the lawsuit wasn’t fair, why did it survive numerous challenges, and the LACMTA was found in contempt of court at least twice in not implementing portions of the consent order?
If we are so “European” we should sell off TriMet
It should also be noted that London’s transit system is almost entirely privately operated and franchised out.
Yes, there is still oversight by Transport for London which markets the system, sets fares, determines routes, handles complaints, etc.
Privatization sounds good until you have to use a system that has been partially privatized through contracting.
Both Los Angeles and Denver have contracted out parts of their systems. In general the buses break down more frequently, miss runs more often, have less friendly drivers, etc. I was in Denver twice this summer and 90% of the contracted buses had no A/C and it was hot.
It is important to note that in each case, there is still a transit authority or other governmental agency that specifically oversees and monitors those contracts.
WHY? Why not outsource that to a KPMG or EDS or some outfit like that? EDS is already doing a lot of the customer service, procurement, I.T. for the State of Oregon. If you call the employment office you may speak to an Indian at an EDS call center in Bangalore. Outsource the government? It’s happeneing, even in Oregon! GASP.
WHY?
Less than five hours ago you were advocating that we do what these transit systems are doing, but now you’re both apparently A) unaware of how they’re actually operated and B) criticising how they are operated.
The commonality isn’t mass transit; people who panhandle or “look homeless” generally don’t do so because they’ve got alot of money; and if they don’t have alot of money they’re less likely to have a car. People without cars are more likely to use public transportation.
Ergo, public transportation = crime. Clearly a problem.
Also, the issue in LA wasn’t “crumbling” transit; but demonstrable need: buses in East and South LA were packed to the brim, yet buses were few and far behind. The evidence was beyond clear that expanding service in those areas (coincidentally, high-concentrations of minorities and poor – complete and total coincidence) should be a priority yet large numbers were being plowed into the particular rail project.
“Ergo, public transportation = crime.”
Nice use of Latin, but that does not = logic. Given your logic chain we could come to any number of conclusion to justify pretty much anything.
At some point, the tracks are going to need to be placed underground which will speed up the system tremendously.
Will someone who knows tell me why they didn’t choose to run the 5th/6th street rail lines underground? They’ve had the streets closed and under construction anyhow; it seems like the perfect opportunity. It would have cost a lot more and taken longer, of course, but it would have also made the system that much more valuable. The potential for express trains alone might be worth the cost.
Al M said,
I’ve always thought Paris had a great system, even if it is overcrowded. Buses run every 8 minutes, the subways used to be nice, now they are run down.
The city of Paris (not counting suburbs) has a surface area of 31.6 square miles (Portland 145.4 or roughly 4 times Paris) and a population of about 2.1 million (Portland about 540,000, or roughly 1/4 Paris). So Paris has 16 times the density of Portland — the whole city consists mostly of 6-7-story apartment buildings. The metropolitan area is over 10 million, compared to Portland’s 2 million or so.
Paris has 14 “urban metro” lines; each of the busiest ones carries around 500,000 passengers a day. In other words, *one* metro line carries more passengers than all of TriMet (300,000). The trains run about every 2 minutes, and they are automating several lines in order to bring the headway down to 90 seconds, which they hope will relieve overcrowding.
Plus you have the 5 lines of the RER, the regional metro, which runs underground within the city and carries many hundreds of thousand more. Plus many, many buses, plus totally gridlocked auto traffic at rush hours.
No doubt you’ve read the stories about the riots in the Paris suburbs — the immigrant poor are packed into grim bare-concrete high-rise public housing (like the awful buildings Chicago and hilly have been tearing down). It’s not uncommon for bus drivers to be mugged in those suburbs — when it happens, all the drivers in that garage walk out on strike in protest. (The right to strike — even public employees — is in the French constitution!)
So there’s a huge difference in scale. Sure Portland seems like a small town by comparison, because it really is much smaller! It would be hard to justify a big underground system here. It would be faster, but would cost many, many billions to build now. I don’t think Portland would even want to finance a MAX tunnel from Rose Quarter under the river through downtown.
NYC has the best system in the world as far as I am concerned. The subway system there is truly incredible. Fast, efficient, and safe.
Yep, and it carries a few million passengers a day. It’s great if you’re not disabled – relatively few of the 240-some stations have elevators or escalators. They are slowly rebuilding the stations, but they have a long way to go.
The NYC population is 8.2 million. Manhattan alone has just under 2 million, in 23 square miles. (Again – the entire Portland region is about 2 million.) That kind of density justifies a huge investment in transportation. Ever seen rush-hour traffic in midtown Manhattan?
I like Boston too, excellent subways, trolleys, and buses.
Me too. Boston’s subways were built mostly a hundred or more years ago. They do invest a lot in keeping them pretty up to date, though many underground stations still don’t have elevators or escalators, so accessibility is poor.
Do you think Portland would invest in a subway network in this day and age?
Oh – then there’s the Big Dig. The most expensive rosd project in the US, which out a major crosstown highway in a tunnel under the city. With all the billions they spent on this, they couldn’t spare some millions to connect the two commuter rail stations, North Station and South Station. So there are two disconnected commuter rail networks. Big political problems there.
Boston’s population is 590,000 (a little larger than Portland) in 89.6 square miles – much denser than Portland. Metro area 4.4 million (twice that of Portland).
Population and area stats courtesy of wikipedia.:-)
Those three cities make Portland look like a cow town with its slow,cumbersome and time consuming transit system.
But I keep hearing;
“For a city the size of Portland, its great”
Well, Portland is indeed a smaller city, with MUCH smaller suburbs, than any of those. It’s also MUCH less dense — mostly single-family homes and some low-rise apartments/condos, except for the infamous Pearl:-). I do think TriMet’s system is quite good for a city its size. As my wife would say, “nirvana it ain’t, but it beats most of the alternatives”.
* * * * *
My point in bringing up the LA situation is that on this blog, I read lots of complaints about the bus service — especially that the money is all going to rail — and TriMet’s unresponsiveness about fixing the problems. In LA, they sued. Is it bad enough in Portland to warrant a lawsuit?
Mike
“My point in bringing up the LA situation is that on this blog, I read lots of complaints about the bus service — especially that the money is all going to rail — and TriMet’s unresponsiveness about fixing the problems. In LA, they sued. Is it bad enough in Portland to warrant a lawsuit?”
No, it isn’t, in fact the reverse [money is diverted from trains to run buses] is probably more likely. Some people just like to complain.
In the past week I’ve ridden the bus 13 times, and MAX 10. All of the buses have been on-time, (within a few minutes, I’m not standing out there with a stopwatch,) and I always got a seat. But the trains? One of the trains I was trying to catch just didn’t run, (there was two red lines in a row, and I need a blue one,) the train after that was so crowded that I couldn’t get on, and the train after that (30 minutes later) had enough room for me to at least be squished into the corner. Another train was about 10 minutes late, (and it was the last train of the day, so I’m standing out in the cold wondering if I’ve missed it.) Other than that, the other 8 were on time. I got a seat 3 times…
The fact that a certain road in this region has unreliably travel times on it, and therefor the bus is unreliable on it? Uhmm, duh…
No, it isn’t, in fact the reverse [money is diverted from trains to run buses] is probably more likely.
Matthew, prove to me that LACMTA actually stripped the rail operations budget of funding to pay for bus capital projects.
Prove to me that rail projects were HALTED, trains were pulled off, operators reassigned to bus projects.
The fact is that the BRU filed a lawsuit, won, and the lawsuit survived several legal challenges. The LACMTA was held in contempt. Because they STOPPED investing in bus service (just as TriMet has done) and spent a lot of money on brand new rail projects (just as TriMet has done) that were often skewed towards certain areas of town. As a result, LACMTA had to stop building NEW rail lines (while continuing to operate the existing rail services at full strength, and finishing one line under construction).
The only thing that is preventing TriMet from getting slapped with a lawsuit is that it built the Yellow Line through an area of Portland that, let’s just say is ethnically diverse. Had TriMet built the Green Line without building the Yellow Line, things would be different…
What was unfair about the LA lawsuit were the claims that investment in rail was to serve a specific demographic of ‘white’ riders, which is not true. The majority of LA’s rail passengers are minority and low-income.
I can’t disagree that CNG-fueled buses run cleaner, but in LA the need for cleaner fuel is much greater than in Portland. LA’s investment in light rail is still justified.
And about those Amsterdam New Year’s eve vandals; perhaps they’re white, priviledged, college boys who never use transit, demonstrating their class superiority on the one night they need it to conduct their drunken spree.
Matthew, where have you been taking these 13 bus rides? Tell management, they’ll want to represent your 13 rides with a seat AND on time as representative of the whole system.
It isn’t. Or if someone else thinks it is, let’s hear from them.
“Matthew, prove to me that LACMTA”…
Uhmm, I haven’t ridden the LA bus system in years, so I can do no such thing… I was talking about Portland.
“Matthew, where have you been taking these 13 bus rides?”
In North Portland, a place that will become a whole lot more congested if we build the CRC bridge. And if the roads becomes a whole lot more congested? Well, the buses will start running off schedule all the time too… I agree that buses get off schedule sometimes, and indeed sometimes it is TriMet’s fault, but if the roads they are on don’t provide reliable travel times, then it is simply impossible to keep them the buses on those roads on schedule even if TriMet does everything perfectly.
As a local Chicago’in I had the recent pleasure of visiting Portland last Fall. A friend of mine had showed me around the city a bit, both on Max and on the street car line. While I was there, I was amazed at how clean the train stations and operating equipment were. While I didn’t get to ride any Trimet buses, the outsides of them looked like they received regular maintenance.
Here in Chicago, I’ve grown accustom to bus parts being held together with defective fare box stickers (the ductape of the CTA), and trains that travel at high speeds of 15mph in slow zones, and consistently break down. The entire RTA system (CTA, Pace, and Metra) in Chicago has been on quite the roller coaster in the past 4 years or so, saved time and time again with temporary stop gap funding ‘fixes’ that only delayed getting any type of real fix time and time again. Only as recent as this last Friday, only two days before our latest ‘CTA Doomsday’, did we pass a new capital funding bill to fix our transit funding for the region. And this recent fix only helps with our operating budget. The next major hurddle we have is a capital funding bill. Our last in Illinois expired in 2004, our leaders have since been unable to come up with another. Per the Chicago Tribune article, “Illinois could lose up to $1.5 billion for the proposed expansion of Metra service, including the suburb-to-suburb STAR line; SouthEast Service to South Cook and Will Counties; and expansion of the Union Pacific Northwest and West lines into McHenry and DuPage Counties“.
RTA, in conjunction with the three agencies, has identified a capital need of $16.1 billion over the next 5 years, of which $10.3 billion is needed to maintain and sustain existing service, $1.1 billion is requested to enhance existing service, and $4.7 billion is requested to expand and extend services. Currently only 19% of our capital funding needs have some sort of identified funding source.
So with that being said, coming to Portland to see a transit system that was clean, equipment in good operating condition, and you were expanding your system was just amazing.
well;
CHICAGO?
HAHA;
now you got me laughing!
Isn’t Chicago the most corrupt city in America?
Or is that Providence RI?
ps: why in the world would anyone choose to live in Chicago?
ps: why in the world would anyone choose to live in Chicago?
I choose to live here because Chicago is a very beautiful city, full of green parks with a beautiful lakefront as well as an awesome skyline with awesome architecture. There’s all kinds of culture, history, and neighborhood festivals going on. Not a day goes by that I don’t have an “I love Chicago Moment”, even on a day like today where the high temperature is 0.
Daley maybe one corrupt Mayor, but he gets shit done. However as far as transit is concerned, that’s a state agency, the city has very little control with regards to how to fund the RTA.
Reply to Matthew:
(1) I routinely drive downtown in 8 to 12 minutes, using the same route as the bus that used to take me 45 minutes plus, so the agonizingly slow and unreliable bus service on my route can’t be blamed on other traffic;
(2) On my way in to the office today I observed a #4 bus idling at a stop a few minutes short of the Hawthorne Bridge and the downtown….so this operator has pushed his bus way ahead of “schedule,” leaving riders stranded till the next Sunday-schedule bus appears, and now he’s harvesting his ill-gotten minutes as an extra break…..and of course incarcerating his passengers who’d rather arrive downtown…..is Trimet capable of doing anything about this sort of operator behavior, or is the Union too strong?;
(3) I absolutely agree with you about the proposed CRC bridge.
Reply to Matthew:
(1) I routinely drive downtown in 8 to 12 minutes, using the same route as the bus that used to take me 45 minutes plus, so the agonizingly slow and unreliable bus service on my route can’t be blamed on other traffic;
(2) On my way in to the office today I observed a #4 bus idling at a stop a few minutes short of the Hawthorne Bridge and the downtown….so this operator has pushed his bus way ahead of “schedule,” leaving riders stranded till the next Sunday-schedule bus appears, and now he’s harvesting his ill-gotten minutes as an extra break…..and of course incarcerating his passengers who’d rather arrive downtown…..is Trimet capable of doing anything about this sort of operator behavior, or is the Union too strong?;
(3) I absolutely agree with you about the proposed CRC bridge.
Portland CLEAN? Obviously this visitor from Chicago only saw the hoity toity Pearl district! There are parts of Portland that are as scary as Compton or Hollywood, California! Like felony flats for instance…. There is so much graffiti and garbage all over, especially outside of downtown. I can remember when you would never see graffiti but as we’ve imported a criminal element from other parts of the world this problem has gotten worse. I was apalled at how much graffiti I saw while riding the Amtrak train up yesterday all over buildings in the CEID. If I were to ever catch someone spray painting I would spray paint them all over and see how they liked it! Why is the City of Portland so tolerant of criminal activity?
Greg, having been to the places you mention as well as a number of other places often mentioned in various circles as being dangerous/slummy/run-down, I think your characterization of Portland’s uncleanliness and danger are, yet again, over-exaggerated.
“I was apalled (sic) at how much graffiti I saw while riding the Amtrak train up yesterday all over buildings in the CEID.”
You haven’t ridden Amtrak very much then… I’ve ridden over most of their lines, and the industrial areas near railroad tracks in all cities have graffiti, and a lot of it. The CEID isn’t that bad by comparison, the worst I ever saw was probably between Oakland and San Jose, although the last time I was in LA, they were obviously trying to put them to shame.
“On my way in to the office today I observed a #4 bus idling at a stop a few minutes short of the Hawthorne Bridge and the downtown….so this operator has pushed his bus way ahead of “schedule,” leaving riders stranded till the next Sunday-schedule bus appears,”
NOW, the only way to verify this is too call in a complaint. The bus could have been there for any number of reasons besides being ahead of schedule.
If the driver was running hot then people need to call in about it.
Unfortunately the ethics of the driver is what the passengers get.
When I came to work here 11 years ago there was a fairly rigorous screening procedure and training period.
It seems, even from my point of view, that more than a few people who have no business driving transit make it through the process
I’d love to see a photo gallery of “the other Portland – the one you WON’T find in a tourist brochure”…
The CEID underneath the Morrison Bridge.
82nd Avenue.
Some areas along Interstate and MLK Boulevard still have yet to be “revitalized”.
Many areas of N/NE Portland.
East Powell (especially east of 82nd, and very especially east of I-205).
Old Town/China Town, especially along Burnside and the west end of the Steel Bridge, as well as Northwest Broadway (Burnside to the Broadway Bridge)
I’m sorry but I have to agree with Greg. There are many areas of Portland that aren’t “clean and safe”, and there are many areas that while I will have no problem driving through, my wife WILL lock the car doors.
On the other hand Portland is better today than it was 20 years ago. But that has nothing to do with MAX – Sandy Boulevard is better today than it was 20 years ago and it doesn’t have a MAX line, for example. MLK Boulevard is better today than it was 20 years ago, and it also does not have a MAX line. Same for St. Johns.
(Now, Greg, I honestly feel less safe in Salem as a whole than I do in Portland as a whole…)
Greg et al,
Here’s a link to a Trib story on Felony Flats.
http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=31865
Given how far out the Eastside it is from the parts of town visitors usually see, I figure Jason didn’t visit that part of town unless he had a friend who took him there. Naturally a visitor would spend most of his time in the central area. So?
I walk around downtown, Old Town/Chinatown, and the “hoity-toity Pearl” all the time, certainly a lot more often than Greg. (Remember, I live in the “hoity-toity Pearl”.) So I’m reasonably qualified to comment.
The areas I see on foot are remarkably clean and free of graffiti. Downtown DC (where I worked for 30 years) has trash cans on every single corner — most often you don’t even have to cross the street to find one.
In Portland, street-corner trash cans are rare, but as far as I can tell, they’re not really needed. DC, with all its trash cans, still has pretty littered gutters and sidewalks, till the street sweepers come through every now and then. By comparison, Portland’s gutters and sidewalks are amazingly free of litter, even though cans are few and far between. Evidently, even the poor and the street people in this part of town refrain (with rare exception) from dropping their refuse on the sidewalk and in the gutter. It’s amazed my wife and me, and we’re on these streets a lot, folks. Yeah, Portland is clean.
Graffiti? VERY LITTLE in the central area. Sure, there’s probably some out in Felony Flats and other rundown areas, which is why the city government has ordered merchants to keep their spray paint under lock & key, and take the names of buyers.
Raise your hand if you’ve ever heard of a city of any size without an impoverished, rundown, somewhat dirty neighborhood. Extra credit if you’ve actually visited one. I never have.
Greg, I guess it would be really nice if we could ban poverty in our cities, and regulate the behavior of teenage men so they’d quit writing their names on walls. Poverty has been with us at least since the days of the Bible, and there was graffiti long before the spray can was invented.
If you have any ideas that will work better than the other stuff we’ve been trying for centuries, perhaps you should send them in to the local and state governments.
Mike
“It’s great if you’re not disabled – relatively few of the 240-some stations have elevators or escalators.”
I feel bad about the disabled, but at the same time I have seen far too many resources put into disabled services at the expense of the regular transit commuters.
Helping the few at the expense of the many.
Sound familiar?
I remember when we used to have passengers leave the bus for a wheelchair, and that really sucked!
Luckily Trimet abandoned that dumb policy.
“I’d love to see a photo gallery of “the other Portland – the one you WON’T find in a tourist brochure”…”
Try wandering around any part of greater Portland after midnight and see how safe you feel!
I think your characterization of Portland’s uncleanliness and danger are, yet again, over-exaggerated.
Bob-
Yeah I think Portland IN COMPARISON with other cities is generally much cleaner than other cities. My basis of comparison is then versus now more so than Portland versus other areas. However, I think Portland is LESS CLEAN than it used to be. I never used to see as much garbage and graffiti as there is now. I even saw tagging all over when I lived in Lloyd.
I walk around downtown, Old Town/Chinatown, and the “hoity-toity Pearl” all the time, certainly a lot more often than Greg. (Remember, I live in the “hoity-toity Pearl”.) So I’m reasonably qualified to comment.
Mike-
I have lived in Oregon my entire life (32 years). When I was a kid my parents were part owners of a building which housed the flower market which used to be on Taylor and Grand. It’s the building that is now Rejuvenation’s hardware. To this day you can still find old remnants of the old flower market scattered throughout the building. Anyway during the summer months I would walk all around that area while my dad worked. That was before OMSI was on Water Ave. and I don’t ever recall seeing graffiti EVER. It seems to me that it has gotten worse in the last 20 years but you wouldn’t know because you haven’t lived in Portland for very long. I noticed the same phenomena when I lived in Beaverton. I lived there and saw the wetlands drained and filled in where BTC now sits. Before the MAX came in it felt safe to walk around that area, too. Now its downright frightening, especially at night!
(Now, Greg, I honestly feel less safe in Salem as a whole than I do in Portland as a whole…)
Erik-
I would also agree with YOU on that point. Over the years the Portland area and its infamous “NIMBYism” has relocated a lot of “undesirables” to the Salem area. The Hawthorn district USED to be where the State Mental Hospital was located. The surname “Hawthorn” is actually the name of the first head of the state’s mental hospital. Portlanders didn’t want an “asylum” in their town so they made it relocate to Salem. Hawthorn Avenue used to actually be called “Asylum Avenue” before the hospital was moved. In fact, Center Street in Salem used to be called Asylum Avenue, too, before that term developed a negative connotation. Same thing happened with the correctional facilities. The majority of the population lived in the Portland area but the really bad criminals were sent to facilities in Salem. Well they get out eventually and don’t move far so now Salem has become a “haven of criminals”. Same goes with the garbage. Portland doesn’t want landfills anywhere nearby so they truck it all to Arlington, “out of site out mind”! And don’t forget the electricity for the “clean” electric trains! Fish all ground up in hydroelectric dams and dirty power generation in Boardman….
Now here’s a big development…. I just moved to Salem proper, close to downtown and Willamette and my job and I got rid of my vehicle! I had so much trouble with my vision that I decided for mine and everyone else’s safety it would be best if I went back to the “live where you work” ethic. An added bonus I can walk to school at Willamette and Amtrak and get up to Portland on the weekends. I love Amtrak – I just wish it were as easy for Portland people to ride it SOUTH and spend a day in Salem or Eugene and return to Portland in the evening as it is for the converse.
I feel bad about the disabled, but at the same time I have seen far too many resources put into disabled services at the expense of the regular transit commuters.
I think we’re all still learning how best to serve the disabled. There’s no perfect solution. Some combination of low-floor buses (and bus stops to match), LIFT vans, and maybe wheelchair-capable taxis may be the best optimization. New subways obviously ought to have elevators and escalators.
I agree that NYC can’t hope to put elevators into subway stations all at once, so they’re doing it whenever the station would be renovated anyway. NYC also has a good bus fleet, and getting better. Dunno about paratransit there.
It’s not just wheelchair folks that benefit – it’s the elderly too, and there are going to be a LOT of us. Not everyone can walk up and down stairs.
I got used to the metro in DC, which doesn’t even have stairs – it was built starting in the 60s, with escalators and elevators from Day 1. Then I visited Paris and NYC at a time when I had some knee issues, and walking all the zillions of subway stairs in both cities reminded me why I like the DC metro’s modernity!
SNIP
I remember when we used to have passengers leave the bus for a wheelchair, and that really sucked!
Luckily Trimet abandoned that dumb policy.
Meaning that if there wasn’t enough room for a wheelchair, other passengers had to leave? Yeah, sounds like a poor policy, but that’s also telling me there wasn’t enough capacity in the buses.
GT said
It seems to me that it has gotten worse in the last 20 years but you wouldn’t know because you haven’t lived in Portland for very long.
Point taken. Still, compared with other cities Portland is clean and safe. Let’s not exaggerate the present dirt and danger, just because it might have been better in the “good old days”.
In the “good old days” Portland (like so many other cities in the US) had a good streetcar system, too, and they ripped it out. Now it costs a fortune to put it back.
Mike
In the “good old days” Portland (like so many other cities in the US) had a good streetcar system, too, and they ripped it out. Now it costs a fortune to put it back.
Mike,
I also heard that horse and buggy was a great way to travel in Portland. So then, should the City offer subsidies to bring those back, too? Maybe PDC can subsidize a buggy whip manufacturing company. They already have the rings to tie up your horses on most city blocks. Giddyup!
giddyup! they actually have brought back the horse and buggy, you can rent it by the hour for special occasions like weddings. youll see it go around the downtown area
When US cities stopped operating electric streetcar and interurban lines, and began to dedicate planning solely to automobiles, they created transportation systems that not only don’t work, they built economies that can’t function without cars and everyone driving and transporting goods the longest distances. Cars work very well for Costco and Walmart, but not very well for mom n’ pop corner stores and Main Street, something free market conservatives and libertarians fail to include in their myopic calculations. Streetcars may be slow, but they serve local economies more than fast enough.
On a personal note, I grew up in Portland in the 50’s/60’s, and frankly, got out of here as soon as I could…just too sleepy, slow, sub-urban.
Chicago, where I went to college, was intense, exciting and dirty…the way a city should be.
The Bay Area was every (or many) Portland kid’s dream, and I lived it for almost 20 years; I will always be a big fan of “the City.”
Back to Portland in ’86, older, wiser…maybe, and broke. Thank heavens for all the new folks, new energy and new perspectives that have flooded into town in the last few decades. The transformation of Portland from the “world’s biggest small town” into a respectable midsized city with a grassroots commitment to sustainability has been a pleasure to watch and to help along.
PS I’d love to have an AM train to Salem and Eugene; its long overdue. Frankfurt am Main, has a train every hour in every direction.
“…something free market conservatives and libertarians fail to include in their myopic calculations.”
they also seem to forget that transit systems were private taxpaying companies that couldn’t compete against government subsidized and government promoted (“social engineered”) forms of travel like highway and aviation. 100 years ago there was no DOT, no Federal ___[fill in the transport mode]___ Administration, it was entirely up to the free market, transportation was all privatized, private transit companies in the cities, private railroads/steamship lines running everywhere else, then there started to be regulation on the railroads and transit systems, while competing modes were promoted with public money (public bridges replacing private ferries). i cant think of a better case study promoting libertarianism and the effects of government ruining something. but it seems so called “libertarians” and “free market conservatives” shelf their libertarian beliefs when it comes to their automobile.
freight rail is to this day really the only transportation mode from this old way where government has no role (other than minor safety standards). and the taxes from freight rail dont go to support the industry like other transport user taxes, they contribute by going into the general fund helping services like education, health and road construction. food for thought.
Willamette wrote:
it seems so called “libertarians” and “free market conservatives” shelf their libertarian beliefs when it comes to their automobile.
I think this is a human frailty that afflicts all of us. Across the political spectrum, we’re selective about the government programs we like and those we dislike. Indeed, the political process exists, in large part, to sort out the wishes of the various interests. (This is discussed at length in the Federalist Papers, though I can no longer cite chapter and verse.:-))
We all hate earmarks, in principle, unless they’re our earmarks. And we all hate Congress but love our Congressman for bringing home the bacon.:-)
The challenge is to try to keep the debate civil. This blog is, in my experience, more successful than most in doing this!
freight rail is to this day really the only transportation mode from this old way where government has no role (other than minor safety standards).
The history of Oregon, and much of the West, is entwined with the history of the railroads. If you think there was never much Federal involvement, re-read that 19th-century history. See the origins of the Interstate Commerce Commission.
The 1980 “Staggers Act” (after Harley Staggers, the WVa Democratic(!) congressman who was the main sponsor) de-regulated much of the freight rail industry, including rate-setting, etc. The ICC was abolished as part of this. As usual, wikipedia has a useful page on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggers_Rail_Act
I think the Federal safety standards are far from “minor”, but of course we can quibble about the meaning of “minor”.:-)
and the taxes from freight rail don’t go to support the industry like other transport user taxes, they contribute by going into the general fund helping services like education, health and road construction. food for thought.
This is true in general, but at the moment the freight railroads are appealing to the Feds to provide infrastructure grants to help them expand their capacity. (See Trains magazine and other sources for discussion of this.)
Some of that investment is for new rail lines (especially to haul huge quantities of coal out of the Powder River Basin in Wyoming). Some of the billions of dollars are going to add a second or third track to existing lines. (In the last few decades, the railroads ripped their 2nd tracks out to save $$ on maintenance. Now they’re spending billions to put those tracks back. Sigh.)
Mike
GT said
I also heard that horse and buggy was a great way to travel in Portland. So then, should the City offer subsidies to bring those back, too? Maybe PDC can subsidize a buggy whip manufacturing company. They already have the rings to tie up your horses on most city blocks. Giddyup!
Yep, even the “hoity-toity Pearl” has a lot of those horse rings, because in retiring the horses, we didn’t rip the infrastructure out. On the other hand, in retiring the streetcars, we ripped up the rails. Oh well.
An interesting Asian import is making its way onto US and European cities, including Portland: the pedicab. Undoubtedly it has a role to play. It’s fascinating to watch the regulators (here and in Europe) figure out how to balance the influx of pedicabs against the opposition of tax companies.
Back to the original point: Greg, I hope you and can agree on one thing: some things were better in the “good old days”; others were not. Probably we’ll disagree on which things were and which weren’t; I figure it’ll be more productive to focus on the future and not the past.
Mike
On the other hand, in retiring the streetcars, we ripped up the rails
Actually in many cases we did not.
The Oregon Pacific (a.k.a. Portland Traction Company) still exists and was once an interurban line. The mainline all the way out to Gresham existed up until the 1980s, and was even considered as one of the routes for the original MAX line.
The original Oregon Electric and Red Electric lines still largely exist; the only segments that were abandoned early were between Portland and Beaverton for both lines (because the City of Portland did not want freight trains going through downtown Portland).
Many trolley lines were simply paved over; evidence of the trolley rails can be seen on N.W. 23rd Avenue just north of Burnside, and just west of Harbor Drive at the Sheridan Street exit. When the Broadway Bridge got a new deck a year or two ago the old narrow gauge rails were still embedded within the old deck (and were removed). During Portland Mall construction, crews had to remove the old trolley line at 5th and Harrison which was lined with brick. (I had a nice conversation with a construction worker there who was amazed that the rails were still in place after all these years.)
Until about ten years ago the north end of the rails on N.W. 4th Avenue still existed; this was the start of the Red Electric line. If they weren’t removed then they would certainly be removed as part of the Portland Mall/MAX project – so the argument that they are being removed by roads is silly, when it’s one rail project versus another.
Of course, most of Portland’s city trolleys were narrow gauge (three feet between the rails) so today’s Streetcar and MAX wouldn’t be able to use the existing infrastructure anyways. But given the whole Streetcar vs. Articulated Bus argument, one has to wonder – how better would a narrow gauge Streetcar function on some of Portland’s streets today.
they created transportation systems that not only don’t work
Whether the highway system works (or “don’t work”) is subjective; for the most part the system works. Just because the highways are popular and operate at/over capacity doesn’t mean they won’t work (else I could use the exact same argument to argue that TriMet “doesn’t work” every time a bus passes me by with a headsign that reads “deboarding only”.)
Cars work very well for Costco and Walmart, but not very well for mom n’ pop corner stores and Main Street
Keep in mind that Portland was the founding city for what became one of the first super-department stores in the world – Fred Meyer.
At first Fred Meyer was located downtown, just like any other store at the time. But as Portland grew (thanks directly due to the trolley and interurban systems that were built, that developed communities like Sellwood, Bellrose, Parkrose, Gresham, etc.) Fred Meyer built stores in those areas.
It was too inconvenient to have to go downtown for everything, so Fred Meyer brought “everything” to the Trolley Suburbs. Well, eventually roads were built out to the suburbs too. But the argument that roads killed the ma-and-pop store; Fred Meyer started out as such, and today Freddy’s is pretty darn successful.
BTW, Sellwood seems to be pretty darn successful too, and the vast majority of people go to those stores BY AUTOMOBILE. (Just try turning left off of Tacoma Street…) The neighborhood survived and prospered, even without a streetcar/trolley line to it.
I really don’t understand the argument that seems to suggest “ripping out the streetcars” is considered such a travesty. Really would you want to use the kinds of streetcars that were in use back then anyway? Roads and cars were likely more advantageous in many many ways. Who know maybe 20 years from now there will be a technology to replace cars and even (gasp) LRT and folly trolleys! People in Portland will probably stage some kind of streetcar revolt and demand they be removed for asthetics purposes.
Greg said
I really don’t understand the argument that seems to suggest “ripping out the streetcars” is considered such a travesty. Really would you want to use the kinds of streetcars that were in use back then anyway?
Well, I was referring to the infrastructure (i.e., the tracks), not to the cars themselves. Obviously you’d want to use up-to-date vehicles, but it would be nice to re-use the existing track.
However, Erik clarified that the original Portland city streetcars were narrow-gauge while the interurbans were standard-gauge.
For non-railfans, “gauge” is the distance between the rails, not the width of the cars themselves. Standard railway gauge in most of the world (including North America) is 4’8.5″ In Portland’s case, I think the narrower streetcar gauge was 3’6″.
These days, it’s very rare to build a narrow-gauge line. Occasionally it’s done to extend an existing line — with street railways this happens mostly in Germany, where many streetcar lines were built as meter gauge (that is, 1 meter between the rails). But new systems and most extensions are built to standard gauge.
Since all streetcars are much wider than the track gauge anyway, there’s no direct relationship between gauge and car width. The new Portland streetcars are narrower (8′) than the MAX trains (8.5′; the new ones will be 8.7′), but both gauges are the same (standard). So it wouldn’t be possible to re-use the track anyway.
Erik, thanks for the clarification.
ASIDE: http://parovoz.com/spravka/gauges-en.php has a complete chart of all known railway gauges. Interesting how many there were!
In Philly and Pittsburgh and New Orleans, the streetcars are 5’2.5″. The story (which may be urban legend but is plausible) is that the governments intended the incompatibility, to preclude steam-powered freight trains from using the streetcar tracks.
BART in the San Francisco area uses 5’6″ gauge, and it’s therefore difficult to buy additional trains because of the incompatibility. IIRC, the wide gauge was chosen because the designers thought the trains would be more stable at high(-er) speed. It doesn’t really matter — the DC metro runs as fast as BART, but on standard gauge. (And the French TGV is standard gauge!)
Mike
When a transportation system is solely designed to accommodate motor vehicles, walking and bicycling are unsafe, and ultimately, mass transit becomes impractical to arrange.
If we, as a people, took the advice of engineers who warned against dismantling the trolley systems, and planned to retain the most logical lines, expand them and direct growth around them, we wouldn’t be where we’re at today, importing more than half our petroleum, spending so much on transport, etc.
The ideology that assumes free market competition always reduces costs and always produces better goods and services is nonsense. A fitting symbol for the free market is a snake eating its own tail. Invisible hand my different body part.
It should be noted that with the exception of the Shinkansen (which is standard gauge), all trains in Japan are 3’6″ gauge (and Japan has a lot of ‘Streetcars’.)
Australia still uses narrow, standard and broad gauge (although has been for years trying to ‘standardize’ on standard gauge, there are still many routes that aren’t).
And it’s possible to re-truck a vehicle from one gauge to another (if the trucks can be found) – for example Portland’s Council Crest cars were narrow gauge; however one of the two surviving CC cars was re-trucked with standard gauge trucks, and even set on the MAX line once. (Both are at the Oregon Electric Railway Museum in Brooks; while both are inoperable the Museum’s operating track is standard gauge leaving the CC car with original trucks in the shed for another day…)