Proposed London Car Ban Sparks Criticism


Via Planetizen:

Cars will be banned from some of London’s busiest streets as part of a bold plan to create continental-style boulevards devoted to pedestrians and cyclists.

Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London, plans to replicate Paris Plage, the beach created on a highway alongside the Seine each August, on the four-lane Victoria Embankment beside the Thames.

He is also considering a ban on through traffic on a series of roads connecting London’s parks and main shopping areas, including Portland Place, which runs between Regent’s Park and Oxford Street.

Continue reading Proposed London Car Ban Sparks Criticism


42 responses to “Proposed London Car Ban Sparks Criticism”

  1. Try that in America and we will have another version of the BOSTON TEA PARTY!

    GIVE ME MY AUTOMOBILE OR GIVE ME DEATH!

  2. Philadelphia closes Kelly Drive every weekend to peds and bikes only. In addition to being the one of the nicest bike rides in town, it also serves as a natural location for marathons and other races since it’s closed to auto traffic anyway. It takes the right kind of street, but it is very doable, even in America.

  3. There’s also Santa Monica’s Third Street Promenade.

    It’s really a question of density of pedestrian activity, types of uses, time of day, etc. I don’t know enough about London to comment on their specific proposal.

    – Bob R.

  4. There’s nothing novel or radical about this. Here in Portland, we turned an expressway into Waterfront Park.

    Eugene tried to create a pedestrian mall downtown on Broadway back in the 70’s, but it failed — most likely because they didn’t have the local residential density to support it.

    On the other hand, the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica is thriving — and that’s in the notoriously auto-centric Greater LA area.

    Like Stripes said … no uprisings.

  5. Yet another example, right here in Portland, of all places.

    Harbor Drive was torn out and converted into a park and bike/ped path. No one stormed City Hall with torches and pitchforks. Somehow, life has gone on. :)

  6. Interestingly Portland tried such a concept, with Fifth and Sixth Avenues.

    Extra wide sidewalks, lots of transit, reduced vehicle space.

    Guess what? It didn’t work – retailers complained, and so vehicles are going to be permitted along the entire stretch and there will be on-street parking.

    The only other place it was tried was Waterfront Park (formerly Harbor Drive) but it helped that the through traffic was re-routed onto better routes (namely I-5 and I-405) and the local traffic was simply moved one block over onto Front Avenue (now Naito Parkway).

    I honestly can’t see where such an idea would work in Portland – it requires alternative vehicle routes (the traffic doesn’t just go away), and it must be a destination that can withstand a change in travel habits. Like I brought up in another similar thread, I could see it working in McMinnville on Third Street (because through traffic has already been re-routed onto Adams/Baker Streets or on Highway 18 outside of town; the local traffic could easily be accomodated by creating a couplet on 1st/2nd, 4th/5th, or 2nd and 4th Streets.

    However Eugene once tried a pedestrian mall and it failed – the street was reopened to vehicle traffic.

    If, in Portland it were to be created – Morrison and Yamhill (since MAX already uses the streets and there is only one vehicle lane remaining?) along with Park Avenue? First Avenue (since north of Morrison it’s already largely closed to vehicle traffic due to MAX)?

  7. Guess what? It didn’t work

    It worked fine, but it’s not really a good example for this topic because dozens (even hundreds) of buses per hour doesn’t equal a pedestrian-only street.

    – retailers complained, and so vehicles are going to be permitted along the entire stretch and there will be on-street parking.

    As for new on-street parking along the mall, there will be very few, if any new parking spaces. They are permitted in theory, but only under very specific circumstances and there are physical limitations (such as basement vaults) which prevent their implementation. What is more likely to be seen are “quick drop” areas, and a special lane at St. Mary’s for picking up/dropping off students.

    It should be noted that the original main building of one of the most popular shopping destinations downtown, Pioneer Place, is surrounded on 3 sides by transit-oriented streets.

    Another very popular destination is Pioneer Courthouse Square, again surrounded on 3 sides by transit.

    Regarding the PBA retailers (I’m assuming you’re trusting their judgement in the case of the mall redevelopment — you seem to be doing so here), one of their main complaints was regarding the original mall transit shelters. As a result of these complaints, there will now be fewer bus shelters per block, less roof area and wind screen area per passenger, and less seating per passenger than we had before. (Don’t go blaming that on rail — I was told quite definitively by more than one source that redoing the shelters was a make or break deal for the retailers whether or not rail was ever added to the mall.)

    – Bob R.

  8. I should add that Portland does have a few additional pedestrial zones (one in fact so close to my work I’m surprised I missed it – or am I?)

    Second and Third Avenues south of Market. But there is little to attact anyone to these areas – a few condos/apartments, and that’s it.

    Most people walk along Fourth Avenue – where the businesses, cars and busses are.

    Lovejoy and Pettygrove Parks are pratically forgotton. (Pettygrove, more so than Lovejoy, but Lovejoy is one of the city’s most hidden but spectacular water fountains – well overshadowed by Keller, Salmon Street, or Jamison Square.)

    The “mixed-use” development at the old Portland Center Apartments – now the Harrison condos – are vacant, save for the sales office for the Harrison. The Portland Center Plaza is half vacant; the rest just small stores such as a Plaid Pantry and a liquor store, and a couple small restaurants.

    Then there is Riverplace.

    Riverplace might be an exciting place in the summer, during Rose Festival or during the Blues Festival. What about today? The canoe/kayak/bike shop is quiet. The restaurants have reduced hours – if they’re open at all. The quaint gift shops? Quiet.

    On the other hand, downtown Spokane did something different – put pedestrians above the streets and linked numerous buildings together into a covered shopping center. The skybridge network is open even late into the night hours and on weekends, is safe, and covers 12 city blocks together.

    Imagine if Pioneer Place were connected to the buildings alongside Pioneer Courthouse – with Macy’s and Nordstrom connected to the Fox Tower and the ODS Tower, the Galleria, and the buildings that extend along 6th Avenue and Broadway.

  9. The commercial development around Lovejoy Park is horrible. That could be an active pedestrian plaza, but the commercial space around it seemed designed to exclude the sort of businesses that would thrive there.

    With hundreds of residential units within just a few blocks, there’s enough people there to support a coffee house and/or a diner, a supermarket (maybe a Trader Joe’s or a Zupans or New Seasons) northeast of the plaza, and a restaurant row of small storefronts along 2nd Avenue. The key would be to make all of the businesses largely neighborhood-oriented rather than trying to draw business from all over town.

    The thing is, it would require significant reconstruction of the commercial space that’s already there. But the right design and the right mix of tenants could bring the whole area to life.

    (Assuming the residents want it, of course. If I lived there, I’d want a grocery store and a half-dozen restaurants a block away … but that’s just me. Maybe most of the people living there prefer the dead — and therefore quiet — space.)

  10. I think this applies more to the comments than the London article, but they close SW Morrison for PSU football games between Burnside, and I believe SW 18th. If PGE Park was home to a MLB team, it might make sense to either close that stretch of Morrison to general auto traffic (allow access for emergency vehicles, garbage trucks, etc.), or turn it into a festival street. I suppose it would depend or which street(s) the entrance for the Civic Condo parking garage is on.

  11. There is a major 4-block redevelopment just getting underway in the South Auditorium/PSU area that will include a grocery store. In 5 years that part of town will be unrecognizable.

  12. Up here during alternate Saturdays and Sundays in the summer, the Seattle Department of Parks and Recreation closes Lake Washington Boulevard between Colman Park and Seward Park to vehicular traffic with two exceptions(the block it takes for cars to carry boats to Stan Sayres Park boat launch, one of only two in Southeast Seattle), and for local residents.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/72426_bike30.shtml

    Of course, a certain part of Early August is not one of those weekends, as there is an annual event that gets priority for the parks. It has to do with something that the namesake of Stan Sayres Memorial Park brought to Seattle.

  13. If something like this were to happen anywhere downtown, it would probably be the Park blocks, from Burnside north to PSU.

    Erik: I don’t know if downtown Spokane has changed significantly since 2004 (the last time I was there), but the downtown seemed like a ghost town to me. I went to the Big Easy for a concert, we had an hour or two to kill before the concert started so we went walking around looking for food, there were shuttered stores EVERYWHERE. It wasn’t a dangerous “I’m going to get jumped” kind of vibe, but it felt like everybody had packed up shop and moved elsewhere.

    That was the only time I’ve been to Spokane, so I definitely could have been in the “bad part,” but needless to say, after my experience you’re using Spokane as a positive example of building a downtown took me by surprise.

  14. Doug – I was last in Spokane last September. Seemed fine to me, lots of people were out and about.

    Bob: (quote) As a result of these complaints, there will now be fewer bus shelters per block, less roof area and wind screen area per passenger, and less seating per passenger than we had before

    OK, then why isn’t TriMet doing something about that?

    In Spokane and Salem, the transit agencies have storefront customer service/waiting areas.

    Apparently TriMet can take the time to install a “NeXt Big Thing” information center with plasma TVs – TriMet should be installing storefront waiting areas for bus (and MAX) passengers.

    (References: http://www.trimet.org/tv/episode1/index.htm
    http://www.cherriots.org/How_To_Ride.htm (scroll down to “Cherriots Stations”
    http://www.spokanetransit.com/ridesta/theplaza.asp)

    Instead – TriMet’s “customer service center” is located literally out-of-the-way, underneath Pioneer Courthouse Square, which is 280 feet from the bus stop northbound on 6th Avenue in front of the Pioneer Courthouse. (And of course that bus stop is closed; so add another 900 feet to the temporary stop on 4th Avenue. Distances determined by the “ruler” function on Google Earth.)

    Spokane’s? Front door – 20 foot sidewalk – bus stop.

    If TriMet can afford an information center with plasma TVs for what is largely a MAX project, then it can DAMN WELL afford such a project for busses. (Just another example of TriMet’s “marketing” and “outreach” towards bus riders, and its “investment” towards improving bus service.)

    Let’s see where TriMet could do this:

    The new PSU Student Recreation/City Archives Building.
    Macy’s at Meier & Frank Plaza, or the building south of Pioneer Courthouse Square that hosts the Washington Mutual branch.
    The U.S. Bancorp/UNICO Tower
    Greyhound Station

    And of course at all major transit centers and shopping malls.

  15. Wow, Erik, that is really something!

    You’re complaining about the location of TriMet’s downtown ticket office? Really?

    It’s in Pioneer Courthouse freaking Square!

    Easy to remember, easy to find, centrally located.

    Just wow!

    What will you complain about next?

    The location is right on the transit mall!

    If you’re arguing that TriMet should have relocated the entire office to a new facility during mall reconstruction (so as to save 200-400ft of additional walking for some patrons), do you swear that if they had done so, you would not have been complaining about the needless cost of ticket office relocation that could have been allocated to more buses instead?

    (And before you leap in and complain that bus mall construction is unnecessary, that couldn’t be further from the truth: The bus mall was due for a complete down-to-the-foundation rebuild whether or not light rail was a part of the project.)

    – Bob R.

  16. Tri-Met’s Central Information Center/Ticket Office is the best-placed facility of that type I’ve ever seen. And I speak from considerable experience traveling to other cities and trying to get around on their transit systems, which very often involves a trip to their information office. I have NEVER seen an information center anywhere that was easier to find than “the middle of Pioneer Square.”

  17. Yes, Bob, EVERYONE knows where Pioneer Courthouse Square is, even those out-of-town guests who use TriMet because they don’t want to rent a car.

    You must have X-Ray vision because you can see through two blocks of Pioneer Place, plus the Pioneer Courthouse, PLUS into Pioneer Courthouse Square. Do all TriMet busses put out an automated annoucement that states “TriMet Ticket Office and Customer Service Center located at Pioneer Courthouse Square, Two Blocks (or Three Blocks) West”?

    Are there pathfinder signs located at all bus stops in the general vicinity that point the direction to the office?

    Do all bus operators call out this information?

    Maybe for you and me that office is easy to find, but you know what? I don’t need the office. I would like to think that I take into consideration those who aren’t transit experts and think that the total transit experience should be easy for anyone to use. Apparently TriMet is a system that is only good for “transit geeks” to use.

    do you swear that if they had done so, you would not have been complaining about the needless cost of ticket office relocation that could have been allocated to more buses instead

    I swear on the Bible (Old and New Testaments), Quran, the Book of Mormon, and any other religious text you want to throw at me.

    Now do you want to stop the personal attack and focus on the intent of the message (making customer information easier to obtain and the wait for transit more comfortable) or are you going to complain about me some more?

  18. The Cherriots bus terminal downtown Salem blows TriMet completely out of the water. Inside you can wait in comfort, out of the rain and ample security EVERYWHERE. The only downside – Salem’s buses don’t run very often and forget weekends. Now if only we can get the commuter train down here and more frequent Amtrak service I’ll be happy!

  19. Yes, Bob, EVERYONE knows where Pioneer Courthouse Square is

    Many, many people know where Pioneer Courthouse Square is. It’s not that hard to miss.

    even those out-of-town guests who use TriMet because they don’t want to rent a car.

    If they’re out-of-town guests using TriMet, the chances are pretty good they say the TriMet information signs and pamphlets at the airport before they boarded (gasp) light rail.

    In 2009, if they arrive via Greyhound or Amtrak instead of plane, they’ll still have a light rail connection at Union Station / Greyhound Station and it will take them right past Pioneer Courthouse Square, as will any bus on the transit mall.

    You must have X-Ray vision because you can see through two blocks of Pioneer Place, plus the Pioneer Courthouse, PLUS into Pioneer Courthouse Square.

    You found my secret.

    Do all TriMet busses put out an automated annoucement that states “TriMet Ticket Office and Customer Service Center located at Pioneer Courthouse Square, Two Blocks (or Three Blocks) West”?

    The newer buses with automated announcements can. For all the others, ask the driver. (Isn’t being able to talk to the driver one of the supposed advantages of a bus?)

    Are there pathfinder signs located at all bus stops in the general vicinity that point the direction to the office?

    I’ve seen several. I can’t vouch for all, but there are a number of wayfinding signs out there.

    Do all bus operators call out this information?

    You’ll have to ask them. I’m sure most operators are very helpful when politely asked questions about the system. Perhaps Al can share some insight about this.

    Maybe for you and me that office is easy to find, but you know what? I don’t need the office.

    Okay then.

    I would like to think that I take into consideration those who aren’t transit experts

    I would like to think so, too. If there were no transit information office, and I were asked to place one, I would think: “Where do most bus lines and light rail lines converge? Why, Pioneer Courthouse. What? The Federal Government won’t let is in there? Okay, how about the square? It has covered offices and public restrooms and is right across the street.”

    Seriously, Erik, it’s not hard to find problems with a lot of TriMet decisions, but putting the information office in Pioneer Courthouse Square has got to be one of the most obvious, simple, and practical choices they’ve ever made. There’s nothing really wrong with the location.

    Apparently TriMet is a system that is only good for “transit geeks” to use.

    What, only “transit geeks” know the location of Pioneer Courthouse Square?

    I swear on the Bible (Old and New Testaments), Quran, the Book of Mormon, and any other religious text you want to throw at me.

    I didn’t know you believed in all of those at once. But I won’t criticize.

    Now do you want to stop the personal attack

    What personal attack?

    and focus on the intent of the message

    If I’m supposed to divine your intentions rather than critiquing what you actually wrote, doesn’t that necessitate getting fairly personal?

    (making customer information easier to obtain and the wait for transit more comfortable)

    I’m absolutely in favor of making customer information easier to obtain, and for making the wait for transit more comfortable.

    (In case you didn’t notice, I went to meeting after meeting after meeting, lobbied as many people as I could, called in the support of distant and retired architects, got articles in the paper, and more to try and maintain the type of shelters we used to have on the transit mall. Unfortunately, few people joined me in this effort and I did not succeed.)

    Has TriMet really done such a bad job in the “customer information” area?

    They have:
    1. A web page with interactive trip planner
    2. A stop-information/arrival hotline
    3. Signage all over town
    4. A very centrally-located information office
    5. Partnerships with local businesses to sell passes and distribute schedules
    6. Friendly, knowledgeable operators who are trained to share customer information.
    7. Automated signage and announcements at some locations (mostly light rail at this point.)

    In each of these areas, there is room for expansion and improvement, especially in the area of realtime information at bus stops, and in conveying information when the automated predictions break down. But they’ve done a pretty good job so far.

    – Bob R.

  20. The only downside – Salem’s buses don’t run very often and forget weekends.

    Well, I guess TriMet isn’t so bad then.

    – Bob R.

  21. Well, I guess TriMet isn’t so bad then

    Well, if I want to get beat up with a baseball bat or harassed by vagrants, listen to foul mouted teenagers, watch drug deals or pay 4x as much for my monthly pass then TriMet is definitely the way to go!

  22. Cherriots standard monthly pass: $25.00
    TriMet 2-zone monthly pass: $65.00 (Cherriots covers a relatively small total geographic area, a 2-zone pass is the most direct comparison.)

    Rate difference: 2.5X, not 4X.

    (I guess those who complain that TriMet doesn’t charge riders their “fair share” must now turn their outrage toward Salem.)

    As you previously addressed, TriMet offers a greater service frequency (and more routes) plus weekend service.

    And Cherriots is not free of “vagrants” as you call them. My grandfather, as was his way, used to offer them rides to the mission and a hot meal.

    – Bob R.

  23. And Cherriots is not free of “vagrants” as you call them

    I have never seen a “whatever you want to call them” with bags full of dripping cans or pit bulls (I even saw one person with a white pet rat on MAX) riding on Cherriots. That would simply not fly down in Salem!

  24. (I even saw one person with a white pet rat on MAX) riding on Cherriots. That would simply not fly down in Salem!

    Rats don’t fly. Are you sure you didn’t see a rare albino bat? :-) (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

  25. haha! No, it was an albino rat…. I have pictures I can send you if you’d like to see.

    I just thought of something. Why don’t they merge TriMet, SMART and Cherriots into a single agency and have a pass to get back and forth from Salem to Portland? I am amazed by how many people commute to their state jobs in Salem and live in the Portland area. They must be spending hundreds of dollars a month in gas! And yes, even I, despite my cynicism of transit in general, am totally in favor of extending the Wilsonville commuter train to Salem. They even have a stop at Keizer Station in anticipation of it coming….

  26. (In case you didn’t notice, I went to meeting after meeting after meeting, lobbied as many people as I could, called in the support of distant and retired architects, got articles in the paper, and more to try and maintain the type of shelters we used to have on the transit mall. Unfortunately, few people joined me in this effort and I did not succeed.)

    I appreciate the effort, Bob. I loved the old shelters. I didn’t go anywhere near the lengths you did, but I wrote comments and sent letters to Tri-Met asking they be preserved. I also wrote letters to Sam Adams’ office asking the City of Portland to move the old shelters to scattered locations downtown, modify them, and use them for covered bike parking.

    No such luck. All but one got scrapped. But thanks for trying.

  27. No such luck. All but one got scrapped. But thanks for trying.

    Thanks, djk.

    A friend who works at a local TV station sent me a pic of a pair of bus mall shelter roofs being used in the mock terrorism drill at PIR a few weeks back, so some shelters didn’t get 100% “scrapped”.

    I put a couple of calls in to the recycling company that got the shelters, but never got a reply.

    At the very least, for the $750 the recycler paid, they would have made fabulous gazebos for the right homeowner. :-)

    – Bob R.

  28. despite my cynicism of transit in general, am totally in favor of extending the Wilsonville commuter train to Salem.

    I would love to see an analysis of this. I have a suspicion that the ridership would be quite high (no, not that way), but I don’t know what the cost would be.

    A parallel route serving Oregon City, Milwaukie, and Portland would be worth looking into as well.

    I recall Erik has good knowledge of the various rail corridors in the valley, perhaps he can provide some ideas of what is and isn’t feasible in the near term and long term.

    – Bob R.

  29. One more thing about the shelters…

    All but one got scrapped. But thanks for trying.

    I did notice that construction crews had been using that shelter to protect and display construction blueprints/diagrams — so that one remaining shelter was of value even during demolition and reconstruction. :-)

    Now, this thread has gotten way off topic (I’m guilty, too) so I’d like to use this opportunity to restore discussion of pedestrian-only streets.

    – Bob R.

  30. I would love to see an analysis of this

    I think they’re already working on it…. It would follow a more westerly route going from RiverFront in Salem through Keizer, Donald, Waconda, up to Wilsonville. They used to use these tracks for the Western Electric so freight congestion wouldn’t be an issue…. I would be more concerned with a Salem – Portland route via Beaverton being too long and requiring a transfer. They should find a way to make a commuter route go from Tigard to Riverplace too. Heck they could be really “progressive” and have an Ethanol or BioDiesel locomotive for this thing! I’m all for it!

    Anyway, here’s the bill…. http://www.leg.state.or.us/07reg/measpdf/hb2400.dir/hb2472.intro.pdf

    –GREG–

  31. In each of these areas, there is room for expansion and improvement

    Yes, there is.

    And it’s the job of TriMet’s management to continually expand and improve, not stick it to the face of bus riders in favor of light rail.

    Has TriMet done good things? Yes, they have. Has TriMet done things that were completely idiotical? Absolutely. The problem is that TriMet doesn’t acknowlege its mistakes – and worse, doesn’t rectify them in a timely manner.

    I recall Erik has good knowledge of the various rail corridors in the valley, perhaps he can provide some ideas of what is and isn’t feasible in the near term and long term.

    There are three primary north-south corridors between Portland and Eugene.

    1. The Southern Pacific (now Union Pacific) “Valley Line”, which is the primary freight route and hosts three Amtrak trains a day. This line is already built to host passenger trains and has a top speed of 79 MPH. Passenger stations already exist in Portland (Union Station), Oregon City and Salem; there is adequate land for stations in Milwaukie, Clackamas, Canby, Hubbard, Woodburn, Gervais, and Chemawa (not to say that all of them would be stations, but they are potential station sites.) In Canby, Hubbard, Woodburn and Gervais, the downtown areas are right along the railroad tracks, so building stations in these communities would be in the heart of each communities’ downtown.

    The second route is the Southern Pacific’s “Westside Line”, which extends from Milwaukie to Lake Oswego, Tualatin, Sherwood, Newberg, Dundee, Lafayette, McMinnville, and then southward to Corvallis along Highway 99W. This line once hosted the Red Electric trains, from 1914-1929. Passenger service ended shortly thereafter and was replaced by bus service (operated by the Southern Pacific and later Greyhound; the Greyhound bus that travelled from Portland to San Francisco via 99W, 18 and U.S. 101 was a direct descendant of the Red Electric service.) Today the route over Rex Hill (Sherwood-Newberg) is in need of major rebuilding, and track speeds would likely not exceed 30-35 MPH. A tunnel is feasible but would likely cost several hundred million dollars; the population in Yamhill County is roughly equal to the population within Beaverton or Hillsboro to give a comparison (and Beaverton/Hillsboro has the MAX tunnel.) The track from Newberg to McMinnville is in very poor condition; today trains are restricted to 10 MPH.

    The third line is the Oregon Electric route from Tigard to Tualatin, Wilsonville (the WES route) and continuing to Donald, West Woodburn (note – 2.25 miles northwest of downtown Woodburn, and in an undeveloped/farming area), Hopmere, Keizer and Salem.

    The benefit to this route is that it takes off from the Beaverton-Wilsonville commuter rail line.

    The drawback is that it doesn’t serve any communities until Keizer, has a horrible alignment in Northeast Salem (the track passes by many homes with extremely close clearances, requires a S-curve along an elementary school, then passes down the center of Front Street – all requiring very slow speeds), and the downtown station area has been redeveloped as a city park (Riverfront Park) so it’s unlikely a train station could be sited there. Any other location takes the station outside of the downtown core.

    An idea I think is worthy is to use the Valley Line alignment from Salem to Hubbard, and then build a new line along the Wilsonville-Hubbard Highway (within the right-of-way on the east side of the road) to just before I-5, then a new (one mile) connector over (or under) I-5 to reach the Oregon Electric route just south of the Willamette River. This would allow the tie-in with the existing Commuter Rail, use the far-better UP line into Salem, and also offer the option of having a second line into Portland via Canby, Oregon City and Milwaukie (essentially creating a “Y” shaped network).

    With the exception of my last idea, most of the rail routes have already been studied TWICE by ODOT and another ODOT Rail Plan is expected to be out soon that will once again describe these routes in great detail. The 1997 Rail Plan is available online at http://www.odot.state.or.us.

  32. >Why don’t they merge TriMet, SMART and Cherriots

    Oh please no! Cherriots is awful – late buses, rude drivers, many “no service” days, “I don’t have to care, you’re probably going to the welfare office anyway” attitude.

    Perhaps Salem would benefit from some pedestrian and bike only streets that go for long distances – then people wouldn’t have to try to use those terrible buses!

  33. I have had just the opposite experience RE: the drivers. My only gripe is the frequency and no-service days but hey they have an awesome transit center – heated and everything, even customer service is right there. I wonder why doesn’t TriMet have its main headquarters also be a transit center so they can keep a closer watch on their operation?

  34. Official Topic Hijack Post:

    Hi Erik, Greg, and Bob. I think I might be able to shed some additional light on the Wilsonville-Salem commuter rail status. I’m a student at Willamette University in Salem, and the next five weeks of my life are going to be spent preparing an amateur feasibility report on this project for a class that I’m in. I just had a meeting with some people at ODOT Rail this morning.

    In short, here’s where the project stands. ODOT is largely viewing the WES as a test case (as should be expected), but if/until they get the go-ahead from the legislature and the new state rail plan comes out, all the talk about extending the system is going to be just that: talk.

    The major issue isn’t so much track conditions, it’s liability. Portland & Western is making TriMet buy a horribly expensive insurance policy for liability purposes, and Erik has mentioned here before, an additional $18.5 million had to be spent to buy 5 miles of ROW from Union Pacific. Of course, there are other issues (TriMet can’t operate in Marion County, ODOT is still primarily a highway agency, etc.), but that’s the biggest one.

    Now, if WES proves to be a success, P&W might be less hard-nosed about the Wilsonville to Salem segment. The problem is that P&W only owns the tracks south to Perkins Rd. (just north of Keizer). From Perkins Rd. south, the tracks are still owned by BNSF, who’ll probably take the same position as UP and make a public agency buy that part of the line.

    I mentioned Erik’s idea about a Wilsonville-Hubbard connection along Hwy. 551, but I got the sense that the long-term plan is to stay as far away from the UP mainline as possible. The long-term “plan” is to keep Amtrak on the UP (increasing to 5-6 trains daily instead of two, with travel time from Portland to Eugene around two hours) while putting commuter rail on the lesser-used P&W, which would be able to accommodate more frequent headways.

    As for the Salem alignment that Erik talks about . . . it is really bad. My idea would be to utilize the original Oregon Electric passenger route down Broadway/High St., which would eliminate the need for the S-curve and allow for the creation of a convenient transit hub at the existing Cherriots bus mall. Again, the effectiveness of WES’s Lombard St. alignment will go a long way toward showing whether this idea is feasible or not.

    I’d appreciate any comments/questions that people have. This professor doesn’t exactly grade easy, and I need all the help I can get. :-)

    Bob/Chris, is there any way we can get a new topic for Wilsonville-Salem commuter rail? Bob, I’m really sorry for the hijack. I think pedestrian-only zones are great!

  35. A new thread for commuter rail to Salem has been started here.

    Now returning this discussion (what’s left of it :-) ) to pedestrian zones.

    – Bob R.

  36. Here in Portland, we turned an expressway into Waterfront Park

    I love it when Portlanders bring up this point. They should really say “we replaced our aging freeway with two much wider freeways and tore out the old one”

  37. They should really say “we replaced our aging freeway with two much wider freeways and tore out the old one”

    Maybe. But most places don’t tear out the old one, they just keep adding new ones.

Leave a Reply to Erik Halstead Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *