Today’s News-Register has an article about new interest in a study for commuter rail in Yamhill County. The article uses the term “light rail” in a few places but from the context it is pretty clear that what they are really talking about is commuter rail on existing freight tracks.
Article: Tribe puts rail study back on track
45 responses to “Commuter Rail Study for Yamhill County”
Wow, looks like Yamhill County is serious about commuter rail. When you have Yamhill Co businesses pitching in to pay for the study, you know they’re serious. We may see rail service from Milwaukie to McMinnville before anyone would have ever guessed.
Beaverton to Wilsonville was a long shot 10 years ago. Now it’s the inspiration for others to copy.
Why Mac to Milwaukie? Why not Mac to downtown Portland?
Beaverton, Hillsboro or Portland seem like better destinations for a rail line originating in McMinnville. Can anybody who lives in the area clarify why they’re looking to send this thing to Milwaukie?
First of all, anyone who thinks it can be done for $3M a mile is sadly mistaken. Washington County’s Commuter Rail project is coming in at $8M a mile, and it doesn’t have the complexity of crossing Rex Hill, nor does it have any significant bridges of which McMinnville-Milwaukie has multiple of. A Yamhill County commuter line will cost MORE, not less.
Washington County also had the benefit that only five miles of track had to be purchased (from Tigard to Beaverton). The rest was already owned by ODOT. Yamhill County would have to purchase the entire line; and Union Pacific has proven to want top dollar for its real estate assets.
As to why Milwaukie would be the terminus, it’s because that’s effectively the end of the railroad route from McMinnville, where it reaches the UP mainline. Theoretically it could connect with MAX, busses or potentially intercity rail service in Milwaukie.
However I am baffled as to why this forum would support such a rail system to a county that has very little population density and is even more remote than Portland’s suburbs; that Yamhill County residents pay a price for their lifestyle choices and should have to suffer the consequences of choosing not to live in the Pearl District. For those of you who argue that Tualatin (within TriMet/Metro/Portland Metro Urban Growth Boundary) is undeserving of quality transit, why should rail be extended to Yamhill County? (Admittedly, this route does pass through Tualatin.)
While people living in Yamhill County would definitely see a benefit for it, those living in Washington, Clackamas, and Multnomah Counties who work in Yamhill County would see the most benefit.
A lot of people who work in McMinnville actually live in one of the three above mentioned counties. The plan is to try to take some of the traffic off I-5, I-205, and other such roads and put it on the commuter rail.
With a new MAX line expected in Milwaukie, it makes sense to end the commuter line there and have people then switch to the light rail line. Plus, that’s where the line they’re talking about ends. I’m guessing they’re trying to get the new Milwaukie MAX line close to that location.
The plan is several decades away. The primary reasons are 1)the anticipated more than $200 million cost, 2) the poor condition of the rails, including 5-6 trestles needing major repair, 3) no government agency in the county with ANY money to put toward the project, 4) the doubt that UP would allow passenger traffic on the rails, 5) the “passenger rail” project in Washington County does not qualify for federal funding based on today’s standards for ridership (that project was “grandfathered in”). So would Yamhill County get any federal funding with much lower ridership? 6) The fare box provides less than 50 percent for “passenger rail” operations, there is no organization to subsidize the operations for the low ridership.
This project has not taken into account any quantitative data. It has jumped from “tourist train” to “passenger train’ because the “tourist train” is DOA (or death before arrival).
Erik said: Washington County also had the benefit that only five miles of track had to be purchased (from Tigard to Beaverton). The rest was already owned by ODOT. Yamhill County would have to purchase the entire line; and Union Pacific has proven to want top dollar for its real estate assets.
then Ruh said: 4) the doubt that UP would allow passenger traffic on the rails,
It is my understanding both the line that the Beaverton-Wilsonvile train will run on, and the line to Yamhill county are, and will continue to be owned by the Portland & Western Railroad. TriMet/ODOT did not purchase any of these lines. The UP does not own these lines. The only portion of the line where this *may* not be the case (I don’t know) is the new part to be constructed between the existing line at Farmington/Beaverton-Hillsdale/Lombard to the Beaverton TC along Lombard in Beaverton.
The PWRR will in fact operate the B-W rail under contract with TriMet.
See:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/RAIL/maps.shtml
http://trimet.org/commuterrail/project.htm
the poor condition of the rails, including 5-6 trestles needing major repair
A few more:
From south to north, starting in McMinnville (although the proponent of the project really wants it to go to Grande Ronde):
1. North Yamhill River
2. Hawn Creek (south of Lafayette)
3. trestle south of Dundee
4. Hess Creek (south of Newberg)
5. Villa Road overpass (within Newberg)
6. Hell’s Canyon
7. Bell Road overpass
8. trestle north of Sherwood
9. Tualatin River (within Tualatin)
10. Willamette River (between Lake Oswego and Milwaukie)
11. Kellogg Lake/Highway 99E overpass (within Milwaukie)
There are several smaller structures that would also require repair/replacement.
In addition is the question as to climb over Rex Hill or to tunnel through it; a tunnel (single track, with no ventilation system, approximately 3.5 to 4 miles long) would easily cost $100-300 million by itself. A double-tracked tunnel, obiviously more; as would whether the tunnel would be for passenger trains only or have clearance for high-cube freight cars, or whether an allowance would be made for potential addition of catenary wires/supports.
They couldn’t even get the bypass or widening 99W through Dundee off the ground, how on earth could they possibly get THIS dumb idea to? All they really need to do is widen McKay Road to 4 or 6 lanes and extend it all the way to the 99W/18 interchange at Dayton. Then the casino and beach goers can take a bus if they don’t have a car. No more rail money rat holes in Oregon, especially in my home county!
And I’d also put in an alternate route connecting Brooks to Wheatland and widen Lafayette Highway and Wallace Roads to 4 lanes to improve the flow of traffic from Salem/Keizer to McMinnville and give Yamhill county a 3rd I-5 access. This would allow for West Salem to grow northward into Dayton and McMinnville.
There’s a SIMPLE solution that promotes transit, and doesn’t involve highway construction (although I agree it’s going to be needed anyways):
10 MCI D4505 busses for McMinnville/Newberg-Portland, McMinnville/Newberg-Beaverton, McMinnville-Salem and Newberg-Salem service. $350K each
15 30 or 35′ transit busses for intra-County service – $250K each
10 minivans for ADA or “door to door” service – $35K each (with ADA lift)
Total investment: $11 million dollars.
Federal government provides an 80% match to local dollars, so Yamhill County’s cost would be about $2.25 million.
Granted, Yamhill County couldn’t come up with that amount of money to replace the 1950s era emergency communications system (despite having access to federal grants for that too). Bottom line is that Yamhill County is aiming far, far too high on transit. Because of this, countless hours of official time is being wasted, and people in Yamhill County are losing out on mobility, or are driving more (and burning more gas) because of it.
For a few years I lived in Kalispell, Montana – and just recently they partnered with the National Park Service (Glacier National Park) in a win-win situation – the local transit district receives use of several brand new hybrid busses for city/regional service, in exchange for the busses being used as a park shuttle service for three months out of the year (in the summer). Astoria also benefitted from a similiar program with Fort Stevens (also a NPS property).
Surely, Yamhill County could easily come up with a program that can be used by the Confederated Tribes of the Grande Ronde Indians on the weekends, and provide quality transit services during the week for commuters, those who need to shop or have doctors appointments (namely those who live in Sheridan, Willamina, Lafayette, Dayton, Amity, Carlton, Yamhill and Dundee that must travel to McMinnville or Newberg). Yamhill County could also partner with First, which operates the school bus system throughout much of the county (Corvallis has a similar partnership with Laidlaw, where it operates both the city bus and school bus systems and until recently used the same garage facility, and the same personnel). (First is in the process of acquiring Laidlaw.) Yamhill County’s Public Works department already maintains equipment for other agencies including the existing dial-a-ride bus fleet, so there is little cost for maintenance facilities for a new transit system. And such a system would greatly benefit county events like Turkey Rama, the Yamhill County Fair, Newberg’s Old Fashioned Festival, and other cultural events that occur within the county. The same busses could also be used on special events (i.e. to Portland for Rose Festival, to Salem for the State Fair, for days at the beach).
The (one and only) drawback? It’s a bus.
Hey, Erik…
Have you ever considered a career as a bus salesman? :-) Just kidding…
Bill,
Union Pacific owns the rails to McMinnville and beyond. Hampton owns about 11 miles of the track near Grande Ronde. Portland & Western has a lease agreement with UP. My information is directly from Portland & Western. The “tourist train” idea was totally nixed, and the passenger rail is so far out there, that is doesn’t even reach the planning stage.
The Mt Hood RR in Hood River county carries both freight and tourists; it runs on old UP tracks, and seems to be doing pretty well.
When you get a major player like the Grande Ronde casino interested as well as many, if not all jurisdictions, then all things become possible.
The great drawback with Erik’s bus idea is that they are all sitting in traffic for an hours to get thru Dundee, not to mention the undisputable attraction of rail to the driving public. The point of rail is the dedicated ROW, which offers reliability among other advantages. The question is can two or three uses…freight, commuter, tourist…share it. Two of those do that in Hood River county. Why not three?
The Mt Hood RR in Hood River county carries both freight and tourists; it runs on old UP tracks, and seems to be doing pretty well.
1. Top speed on the Mt. Hood RR is 10-15 MPH. Not suitable for commuter service. Also runs one-three trains a day (depending on whether both tourist trains run, and the dinner train.)
2. The Mt. Hood Railroad purchased the line from Union Pacific in 1987. It is not leased, unlike the P&W tracks.
The difference between Washington County Commuter Rail and Yamhill County Commuter Rail is:
When BNSF left the Oregon Electric line, it sold the rail hardware to Portland & Western, and donated the underlying right-of-way to ODOT. So ODOT actually owns the land underneath the railroad from Willbridge to Astoria, from United Junction over Cornelius Pass to Banks, and from Tigard south to the Quinaby (north of Keizer). (Everything south of there is still owned by BNSF, but leased to P&W.) My understanding is that ODOT technically owns the right-of-way underneath Westside MAX, too, as it was formerly BN track. Also, ODOT owns the right-of-way from Hillsboro to Forest Grove on the former BN line.
One of the stumbling blocks with Washington County was the trackage from Tigard to Beaverton – it was owned by UP. UP agreed to sell, but at a high price. Washington County, from what I’ve been told by a contact with ODOT, had to come up with a large sum of money (double digits and more than $20M) and fly out to Omaha, Nebraska (UP’s headquarters) to buy the five miles of track. Washington County then conveyed the railroad to TriMet which is now the owner of five miles of freight railroad (if you don’t believe me, go to http://www.stb.dot.gov ).
The Westside/Newberg/Tillamook Branch from Milwaukie to McMinnville (and west to Willamina) is owned by UP and leased to P&W on a 20 or 25 year term beginning 1993. UP has proven that they want top dollar for their real estate assets, and UP actually owns quite a bit of real estate in the Portland area. (How many of you know that the Portland Traction Company, the one time owner/operator of many of Portland’s trolleys, still exists to this day – as a real estate holding company – headquartered at UP’s headquarters?)
As for a bus sitting in traffic, Highway 99W has to be widened. A bus would benefit from that, as would tourism, commuter traffic, and freight movement, as 99W is a significant freight route. Rail will not alleviate this requirement. And “sitting in hours” is not the typical situation, except on a Sunday afternoon/evening.
Can Freight, commuter and tourist service intermix? Yes – but at what cost? Currently there is no freight on this line and no real demand for it. The population density of Yamhill County does not support a rail-based transit mode. All that’s left is tourism, and given the particular issues with this route, such would be very expensive. Finally, there is very little freight on the Mt. Hood Railroad – in fact often times what little freight there is (as many as one or two cars) is actually attached to the passenger train. The only regular shipper is a propane dealer; there is some seasonal fruit business. THAT is the reason why the tourist operation is primary on that line, without it the railroad would have no reason to exist. (Case in point, the Port of Tillamook Bay Railroad has for many years operated passenger and freight trains, however this year they suspended all passenger operations save for a steam locomotive preservation group along the coast that uses the same tracks.)
Hampton owns about 11 miles of the track near Grande Ronde.
Hampton Lumber Sales owns 5.2 miles of track, from the yard in Willamina to Fort Hill.
Even at its peak, the historical Willamina & Grande Ronde railroad was just shy of 9 miles in length (to Grande Ronde). The track from Fort Hill to Grande Ronde was abandoned and removed in the 1980s. Part of the right-of-way was removed during construction of the Spirit Mountain Casino interchange project, and a Highway 18/22 widening/intersection project will likely affect more of the old right-of-way as well.
Great letter-to-the-editor about the realities of commuter rail in Yamhill County.
Who would pay?
Matthew Simek (Viewpoints, May 26) states that now is the time to bring commuter rail to Yamhill County. However, Mr. Simek completely ignores any discussion of cost, which Yamhill County residents have a right to know before engaging in such a proposition.
The Beaverton-Wilsonville commuter rail line, which is a single-track, non-electrified railroad route operating six hours each day during weekday rush hours only- no service on weekends or holidays – will cost over $117 million dollars for less than 15 miles of track, or $8 million per mile.
Mr. Simek’s plan brings commuter rail from Milwaukie to Grand Ronde at the same $8 million a mile is likely an underestimation, given the challenges of rebuilding numerous tall wooden trestles, reconfiguring track over Rex Hill and having to purchase every mile of track from Union Pacific. Only five of the Beaverton-Wilsonville line’s 15 miles had to be purchased because the other 10 miles were donated by Burlington Northern to the state. Otherwise it would have cost a total of $521 million.
Even a minimal route from McMinnville to Tualatin, connecting with the Beaverton-Wilsonville commuter line and a TriMet express bus to downtown Portland, just over 27 miles, would cost $217 million.
Given that Federal Transit Administration “new start” dollars are becoming harder to obtain – Washington County had to wage a real fight because the project actually received an unfavorable rating at first from the FTA – it’s hard to fathom how a Yamhill County commuter line will meet any federal ridership targets.
Oregon isn’t awash in dollars for transportation projects either, so who’s going to pay for this project – $2,400 from every Yamhill County man, woman and child?
Erik Halstead
Tualatin
Apparently some people aren’t willing to wait for the study to be done to start drawing conclusions.
The question is not only what it will cost, but what value it will add. Commuter rail would likely open up some opportunities for development. The question is what value those have and is there a way to recover some of that increased value to pay for commuter rail. Perhaps the financial barriers aren’t as large as some people believe.
Ross,
The problem is that the economic balance/prospect is so far out of reality that the idea is not worth studying. Since the money has been donated for the study, it will be interesting to read the conclusions. The study was promoted as a “tourist/wine” train initially. Bruce Carswell (pres. P&W) and Kelly Taylor from ODOT advised County Commissioners “to not waste money studying a “tourist train””. Then the study was changed to a “commuter train” study, which is equally far fetched for so many reasons.
Well, I see a lot of value that would be added in operating articulated busses, that are hybrid-electric busses, and running them every 10 minutes, but the pro-LRT/Streetcar fans don’t like them and to them they have zero value.
I also see a lot of value in increasing bus service particularly to neighborhoods that have little or no bus service, because by making transit “in your face” and close to home, people will be more apt to use it. But the pro-LRT/Streetcar fans seem to think that busses have zero value.
The bottom line is that “value” is a subjective term, and at the end of the day people have to get paid. Value doesn’t put money in payroll accounts, value doesn’t pay the steel suppliers, and value doesn’t cover the fuel/electricity bill. I would be led to believe that a lot of Yamhill County residents would put a high value on improvements to Highway 99W, but that has been stalled due to – guess what – money in the bank.
which is equally far fetched for so many reasons.
In your opinion, but apparently not the County Commissioners. Then again, they may want to get commuter rail off the table as an alternative.
The problem is that the economic balance/prospect is so far out of reality that the idea is not worth studying.
I doubt that is true, but the study will provide some concrete information beyond people’s off-the-cuff calculations. For instance, there is clearly is some potential value in the segment linking Milwaukie and the Washington County commuter rail line.
Speaking of….
How about starting at Milwaukie (for now) then instead of crossing at Tualatin, merge at Tualatin and continue to Wilsonville (and eventually Salem). Seems like there’d be as much value there as with the Beaverton-Wilsonville line. It would definitely give people an alternative to I-205.
How about starting at Milwaukie (for now) then instead of crossing at Tualatin, merge at Tualatin and continue to Wilsonville (and eventually Salem). Seems like there’d be as much value there as with the Beaverton-Wilsonville line. It would definitely give people an alternative to I-205.
There sure is a whole lot of this rail line that *doesn’t* go over Rex Hill, which seems to be the sticky wicket as far as rail improvements go:
1. You could run a few trains out to Sherwood with a stop in Old Town, maybe something out in the Tualatin-Sherwood corridor (we have all heard how many employers there are), or a Park and Ride farther out 99W for the Yamhill County folks, hopefully with bus connections over the hill.
2. Probably less useful, and tending more toward a “tourist train” would be trains within Yamhill County only, going as far as Newberg. Improved bus service probably could fix any connectivity problems here currently.
Also, as the rails are currently laid out, trains to/from Wilsonville/Salem would have to go up to Tigard and turn back to get east toward Lake Oswego and Milwaukie or west toward Sherwood. A junction could be built in the 72nd/North Durham area to alow trains to make that connection. The lines actually cross in Tualatin Community Park, but I would think trying to make a junction there would be damaging to the park (but I’m not the forum’s Tualatin expert) not to mention the grades would be tough as the lines are grade separated there.
How about starting at Milwaukie (for now) then instead of crossing at Tualatin, merge at Tualatin and continue to Wilsonville (and eventually Salem).
That’s why I support a Milwaukie to Sherwood route, or even a Lake Oswego to Sherwood route at first (that way if there is demand, then spend the big bucks to upgrade the Willamette River bridge to Milwaukie) – it’d also connect other forms of high capacity transit that are planned for Lake Oswego and Milwaukie, and a connection in Tualatin.
I don’t support the OE line as a route to Salem, but do support a connector from Wilsonville to Hubbard (using the right-of-way of the Wilsonville-Hubbard Highway), and then on the Union Pacific mainline to Salem, which would provide direct access to Hubbard, Woodburn, and Gervais; and would also provide a much better (faster, safer, more convenient) route into Salem. Such a route could also grow northward again from Hubbard to Canby, Oregon City, Clackamas, Milwaukie, and downtown Portland.
Also, as the rails are currently laid out, trains to/from Wilsonville/Salem would have to go up to Tigard and turn back to get east toward Lake Oswego and Milwaukie or west toward Sherwood.
A connection in Tualatin would be difficult at best; not just because of the park but also Tualatin Road, as it makes a 90 degree curve at the OE track, again at the police station, and again at the Westside/Newberg track.
Any connection that would involve curving the Newberg Branch onto the OE would certainly sever that line, prohibiting any west-east movement over the OE. As it is, the bridge over the Tualatin River, when it crosses the park, is fairly low; in fact the OE line has to dip several feet to clear the bridge. And you still have to find a way to either build Tualatin Road around the bridge (that would cause more damage to the park), under it (a tunnel?) or over it (a large viaduct?). The other option would be to abandon the Westside Line from Tualatin east to Cook, build a short connector track that would essentially make the line to Sherwood a branch off of the OE and allow trains from Sherwood to proceed north to Tigard.
From a freight train standpoint, this actually makes sense, because P&W is building a new freight yard in Tigard, and this would actually eliminate a mile of track and three grade crossings (Boones Ferry Road, McEwan Road, Lower Boones Ferry Road). P&W already routes trains from Beaverton to Sherwood, so such would only improve operations for P&W.
It would then result in Tigard becoming the transfer point between trains to the north (Beaverton), south (Tualatin/Wilsonville), west (Sherwood), and east (Lake Oswego/Milwaukie). However, it would do nothing to serve those travelling between Sherwood and Tualatin, without going to Tigard and then backtracking.
Given that the Tualatin station will be located well south of the Newberg line, such an idea isn’t so bad, as it would otherwise require Tualatin to have two separate train stations, and the distance between the two makes for a long walk (1/3rd of a mile) or a very short bus ride; it’d be more suitable for a peoplemover, which is an expensive proposition for the location.
Had my suggestion for a Tigard/Tualatin MAX line proceeded, the reverse would have happened – a connection would have been built in west Tualatin (near the UPS facility), routing all freight traffic onto the Newberg Branch east to Cook. MAX would have terminated at the Hedges Creek Shopping Center (Haagen’s), continued north to Tigard, where MAX and the P&W would exist side by side (similar to the Beaverton Creek MAX station; also along the Banfield). North of Tigard near the North Dakota/Tiedeman crossing, MAX would then turn to the north on a viaduct/tunnel crossing to access Washington Square, before continuing to Garden Home, Multnomah Village, Burlingame and ultimately downtown Portland.
Aaron:
Wow, looks like Yamhill County is serious about commuter rail.
Bob T:
Well, serious about commuter rail, but not
serious about reality.
Bob Tiernan
Reality starts with ideas, Bob.
Beaverton-Wilsonville was just an idea 10 years ago.
Aaron,
Bob Tiernan is correct. Reality is not close on this one. The population density will not come close for several decades. The first prerequisite is population density/ridership. The premature ideas presented in this scheme are totally unrealistic when ridership and economics are combined. While qualitative analysis is fine in the beginning, necessary quantitative analysis should follow closely. There is absolutely no numbers (manipulated, or not) that come close to supporting commuter rail to Yamhill County and beyond. If you, or anyone, can make the case, I would be very interested in hearing it. No one has been able to thus far.
I haven’t seen ANY numbers, for or against. This is strictly a proposal. You may be right, that this is decades away at the earliest. Or you may be wrong and this line is up and running within 10 years. So you’re saying we shouldn’t even entertain this proposal at all? How about waiting till they actually do the study before you judge its potential, or lack thereof.
I will wait for the study. It will most likely come to the same conclusions as the last (how many do we need?) study. This whole process started out with a “lets have a tourist/wine train”. That idea quickly became a non-starter. It doesn’t take too much digging to discover the difficulties surrounding this idea.
The real problem is that even if the study came back with possibilities (which is very unlikely), there is no governmental agency capable, or willing to underwrite the project. Yamhill County commissioners have stated they have zero dollars to put into a rail project.
I apologize Aaron, I didn’t answer your question.
You asked, “So you’re saying we shouldn’t even entertain this proposal at all?”
Yes, it should be “entertained”, but not at a cost of $35,000 to $40,000. One call to Union Pacific would probably do it. A good two-hour discussion (with the previous study as reference) would/should easily dismantle the whole idea. The problem is that it is not even close. If it were close, I would be all for the study and project. The economics of the project are prohibitive even before ridership is discussed.
From what I remember of the article (the link no longer works) it was solely the business community in Yamhill County that was funding this study. There’s no taxpayer money going towards this. My guess is they wouldn’t be throwing money away if there was no chance of this proposal panning out. It may very well be a long shot to get a Yamhill line up and running, but I think it was also a long shot to get the Beaverton-Wilsonville line built, and yet here we are.
First of all, it has been studied TWICE by ODOT. Both times, ODOT stated that “yes, technically it can be done, but it’ll cost a lot of money”. The only thing that has changed since 1997 is that “lot of money” has been changed to “a lot more than a lot of money”.
Secondly, Yamhill County is just beginning (under the auspicies of the county) a transit study to show where transit is needed within the county.
This new study is trying to shoehorn in a rail based project somewhere, without understanding the needs of the region or the costs. Can it be done? Yes, so can a 16 lane wide I-5 through North Portland to reduce congestion. Doesn’t make it a good idea, though and I bet there’s a lot of people here that would be up in arms if such a study were proposed.
What is missing is a range of alternatives, from the “no build”, the “current bus service”, “enhanced bus service”, and so on, along with widening 99W, turning it into a freeway, or leaving it as is (a quasi-expressway). That’s what got us to the Newberg-Dundee Bypass, and once the finance report came out, there was almost unaniamous opposition to it that the project is in a lull, and an ODOT manager even wrote to the City of Newberg stating that ODOT can’t possibly see the project happening in 20 years.
Finally, there is taxpayer money involved. Several cities, including both McMinnville and Newberg, have pledged funds to the study. If that money didn’t come from taxpayers, where did it come from?
But once again we will partake from the funny juice that is anything rail = good. Anything involving a bus = bad. When a serious study occurs that discusses all possible scenarios, I’ll be a bit more supportive.
First of all, it has been studied TWICE by ODOT.
ODOT builds highways. I know they have a rail group, but the fact that they have studied something doesn’t mean much. Their studies produces the answers the agency’s leadership wants. In Yamhill County that was a bypass of Newberg and Dundee, not a commuter rail line. Its not surprising that the Yamhill business community wants an independent opinion.
“The only thing that has changed since 1997 is that “lot of money” has been changed to “a lot more than a lot of money”” -Erik
Really? That’s the only thing that’s changed? In a decade? Here I was thinking that Portland and its surrounding areas had just gone through tremendous growth and that there was much more on the way. And that we’re gonna need to figure out how to move at least a million new people in the next 20 years. And that satellite cities like McMinnville, Newberg, Woodburn, Forest Grove, Sandy, Scappoose and Ridgefield will see their populations explode as more people look further out of the city for their homes.
You’re right, Erik. That was studied 10 years ago when it would have cost only “a lot of money”. We should just wait till it costs us much, much, much more money to solve our transportation problems. We want to make sure we spend as much of your tax dollars as we possibly can (as long as we don’t buy any buses, because only unimportant people ride buses).
Aaron:
I think your tone is fairly combative and I’m pretty sure you’re breaking rules #2 and #4 in the way you’re responding to Erik.
Furthermore, while I’m infinitely more pro-MAX than Erik (which I admit wouldn’t take much) I he’s probably right in this case. It’s going to take quite a while before there’s enough population out there to warrant the amount of money it will take to purchase the right of way. In my opinion we need to build out our rail network in a way that makes sense… looking at a map of the region I’d say our next goal should be running a line south from downtown PDX approximately along 99W or I-5.
Regardless of whether Erik is right or wrong though, the level of vitriol is unnecessary and does both of you a disservice.
Doug –
“It’s going to take quite a while before there’s enough population out there to warrant the amount of money it will take to purchase the right of way.”
I think this may be a misunderstanding. I think it is anticipated that the ROW would continue to be privately owned. The commuter rail would lease use of the track.
As for population and job densities, because it is mostly a park and ride operation, commuter rail can draw from a very wide area around a station. I am not sure you are correct that the population in Yamhill county is insufficient to provide ridership for commuter rail. And there are significant job centers along the route as well.
In my opinion we need to build out our rail network in a way that makes sense.
I also think this is a misunderstanding. Yamhill county is not part of the regional planning process. So there is no “we” here. The question is what kind of transit service do they want to created for people in the county.
It may be that a commuter rail connecting to Portland’s population and job centers is viewed by the business community as having a lot of economic benefits for Yamhill county regardless of how well it fits into the Portland region’s transportation priorities. They may be wrong and/or wildly optimistic, but its their money.
Ross,
You said, “I think this may be a misunderstanding. I think it is anticipated that the ROW would continue to be privately owned. The commuter rail would lease use of the track.”
That is the problem. I talked with Bruce Carswell about this. His comments were that his feeling was that UP would be extremely hesitant to turn the rails over to passenger rail. He felt that UP would sell the rails first, and that would be prohibitively expensive.
Doug,
I apologize if you think i was being combative, I’m anything but. Sarcastic, definitely, but that doesn’t always translate well in blogs, so I’ll try to restrain myself.
That doesn’t change my point though, and that is we absolutely should be studying commuter rail in this corridor, and every other corridor that has existing rail ROW, regardless of who currently owns it. Ownership can change overnight, our transportation needs will still be there. I’m not saying that commuter rail to McMinnville is the region’s #1 priority, but if Yamhill County wants to pursue it, then by all means, let them. What is so wrong with wanting to plan ahead? (Obviously that’s rhetorical, unfortunately planning is a four-letter word for some people)
his feeling was that UP would be extremely hesitant to turn the rails over to passenger rail.
Assessing that is part of evaluating the feasibility.
He felt that UP would sell the rails first, and that would be prohibitively expensive.
I don’t know what that means. UP needs a willing buyer if they want to sell the rails. As you point out, commuter rail isn’t likely to be that buyer. So any money they make from commuter rail is likely to be from a lease.
There is no doubt that getting an agreement for use of the track is going to be one of the barriers to a commuter rail line. But I don’t think that is at all unusual. Its likely to be an issue with any commuter rail proposal.
One point nobody’s raised yet….
The Confederated Tribes of Grande Ronde have deep pockets. And a lot of political strings to pull. If they want this, I wouldn’t bet against them.
They were willing to pay for a $350 million baseball stadium, remember?
Aaron,
These are the contributors to the study:
Yamhill County $5,000.
City of Newberg 5,000.
City of Sherwood 5,000.
City of Dundee 750.
Austin Properties 1,000.
Argyle Winery 1,000.
Stoller Cellars 1,000.
Chehalem Valley Mills 500.
Doran Automotive 500.
Spirit Mountain 10,000.
Total $34,750.
There’s a big difference between a baseball stadium, which was intended to be a profitable enterprise to support the people of the Confederated Tribes of the Grande Ronde Indians, vs. a public transit system that does not make money.
UP needs a willing buyer if they want to sell the rails. As you point out, commuter rail isn’t likely to be that buyer. So any money they make from commuter rail is likely to be from a lease.
The line between Tigard and Beaverton was purchased by Washington County and conveyed to TriMet. Portland & Western owns a permanent easement to run freight trains on the line.
I do not see P&W, or any other railroad, wanting to buy the line from Portland into Yamhill County; especially given that P&W already has rights to run trains on it, and has chosen not to exercise that right.
“These are the contributors to the study:
Yamhill County $5,000.
City of Newberg 5,000.
City of Sherwood 5,000.
City of Dundee 750.
Austin Properties 1,000.
Argyle Winery 1,000.
Stoller Cellars 1,000.
Chehalem Valley Mills 500.
Doran Automotive 500.
Spirit Mountain 10,000.
Total $34,750.” – Ruh
Thanks Ruh, I stand corrected. There IS tax money going to fund this study. So, then, I assume that those officials in Sherwood, Dundee, Newberg and Yamhill Co will be recalled before the next election? If this study is so preposterous as to be a complete waste of money? Or could it be that they (and their constituents) are a little more open to the possibility of commuter rail than some of the forumers here?
Aaron,
No recall, or should there be, on an insignificant issue such as this. Very few are against the idea of commuter rail. Many are against irresponsible government spending. The “tourist train/wine train” rapidly became a non-starter. The commuter train will follow. No one has produced any data that could support its existence. Perhaps you are correct, it will take a study for people to reach the simple conclusion.