Cargo Trams


An interesting pilot in Amersterdam moves freight on the city’s tram (Streetcar) network.

Apparently one of the keys is separate sidings for loading/unloading.

Could it work here? For example, could Intel get product to PDX along with Light Rail corridor?

, ,

19 responses to “Cargo Trams”

  1. This is hardly a new concept, the interurbans of the 1900s-1940s did this. Pacific Electric, in the Los Angeles Basin, had a huge freight business; that’s why after the trolleys left most of the lines were converted to conventional freight rail lines.

    The same is true of the Portland Traction Company; the eastern end of the MAX Blue Line is built atop of the PTC grade, and even today along the Springwater Trail Corridor you can see many of the old buildings and their loading docks and doors used to load and unload boxcars (or express cars, in trolley parlance.)

    What is new is using a modern, passenger-only system, to do what was done in the first half of the 1900s. And when you look at the MAX (or Streetcar) line, how will it work? Portland has gone to great lengths to convert all property around MAX to residential or commercial. The Streetcar is built near-exclusively in such zones. Where are the freight shippers?

    And what about transfer facilities; if a MAX shipper wanted a boxcar of freight, what accomodations would be made? Would the MAX system be rebuilt? Would the catenary be raised? Where would an interchange point be, whether to transfer the boxcar, or the items within the express car to a conventional boxcar? Beaverton Creek? Along the Banfield? At Union Station?

    If Intel wants to do such a thing, fine – but I’m not ready to spend millions on a freight system to benefit only ONE customer. I don’t think Intel is ready to do it, either.

  2. Maybe the Westside Economic Alliance could undertake a project with grant funds to retrofit a few old MAX type cars for freight. Take out the seats and put in the chips. Run them in the early AM hours.

  3. They could also invest in a few electrical locomotives to pull roadrailers from one side of the area to the other.

    But the time when this would work, early in the morning when there is no passenger service, is the same time the roads are essentially free-flow.

  4. They could also invest in a few electrical locomotives to pull roadrailers from one side of the area to the other.

    I don’t think that such an arrangement would work due to sharp curves and/or close clearances:

    1. Beaverton Central,
    2. Sunset TC (including the trackage west of Highway 217, and underneath the Sunset),
    3. Robertson Tunnel,
    4. Downtown Portland
    5. Rose Quarter TC,
    6. Gateway TC (including the ramp to the A-Line).

    I think either new freight motors that are in the same/similar carbody (the type Is would work better since they have the same floor height), or an electric locomotive pulling cars that are no more than 30 feet long or are articulated, would be the way to go. However, who is going to ship, and what is the cost involved in transloading the freight if the shipper and recipient aren’t both on the MAX line (including anything that has to go through PDX, since MAX can’t go right to the airplane?)

  5. OK, can we stick freight motors on MAX? Of course we can – like I originally stated, the idea is hardly new and was done 40 years before Tri-Met was conceived out of the ruins of Rose City Transit, which itself was the bus remnant of the trolley lines that themselves provided the very same service.

    But:

    1. There are few if any freight shippers located even close to MAX. Intel, maybe. There are no shippers in downtown Hillsboro, none at Hillsboro Airport, only Intel at Hawthorne Farm, nothing at Orenco, Quatama, Willow Creek, Elmonica – would Reser’s have a need for rail service? Beaverton Creek, Millikan, Beaverton Central, Beaverton TC, Sunset TC, Washington Park… Nothing on the I-Line. Nothing along the Banfield (besides there is already existing freight service there, the Union Pacific is just north of MAX), nothing along the A-Line, and nothing on Burnside. Most everything at the east end of the Blue is now big-box retail (a transit-oriented developer’s nightmare, and it’s all along MAX!) And nothing along I-205.

    The idea of using conventional freight cars (like San Diego) can’t work for most of MAX; San Diego’s Trolley is built to accomodate freight traffic (and uses conventional diesel locomotives for the freight business). Imagine getting a freight car around Sunset Transit Center; or through the 90 degree curve near PGE Park or at Yamhill & 1st. Or the S-Curve at Rose Quarter. Or on the 180 degree curve at Gateway to the Airport. None of those conditions exists on the San Diego Trolley where freight trains run. Yet in Portland, there is no alternative freight rail route from Beaverton to Portland, save for going over Cornelius Pass or via Lake Oswego, in either case the idea of using MAX to begin with is foolish due to the excessive backhaul required where there is no electric catenary.

    But most importantly, there is no business. Portland has done a magnificent job of scaring away manufacturing jobs and what is left is squeezed together in just a few locations – none of which are near MAX; and most are already served by freight rail (i.e. Northwest, Rivergate, Southeast/Brooklyn/Milwaukie, Tualatin, Wilsonville, Oregon City, Troutdale). Further, even if Intel were to use it – would Intel truly want to invest in dedicated rail vehicles that sit around during the day waiting to be loaded, so that they could get to PDX at night (when MAX trains aren’t running) – when cargo flights come and go throughout the day? Right now Intel can put a truck on the road at any time it’s ready to go. With today’s “just-in-time” inventory management, a delay of even six hours in a shipment of processors could shut down a computer factory.

  6. But the time when this would work, early in the morning when there is no passenger service…
    I heard the reason there’s no MAX service during the early morning is because TriMet needs to be able to do maintenance on the tracks. The reason they run service all night during snow/ice is to keep the lines from freezing.
    I won’t deny that there are already major delays on the currently scheduled MAX service. It’s great that it works elsewhere and I’m glad for that, but this is Portland, Oregon.

  7. But most importantly, there is no business.

    I think this is the reality of the whole freight discussion.

    With today’s “just-in-time” inventory management, a delay of even six hours in a shipment of processors could shut down a computer factory.

    Is that correct? Because I remember the guy from Intel at the E-Freight conference essentially saying delivery times were not very critical. My guess, and it is just that, is that international companies like Intel would need more like a 6 day delay, not 6 hours, for it to make much difference.

    Hours matter to local shippers and their customers that have people sitting around waiting for a part or a print job or whatever that is held up in traffic.

    One of the difficulties with the freight discussion is that the participants, especially from the business community, are largely self-selected. The freight person at Intel, as opposed to the Intel guy who was talking at the e-freight conference, no doubt is very annoyed when their trucks take an extra hour to get to the airport. That doesn’t mean it is crucial to Intel’s business. On the other hand, if you have a discussion of local freight issues, its the freight guy who is going to show up precisely because anyone higher up isn’t going to see it as a priority.

    I don’t think the region has a very good handle on the importance of freight to the economy or what the critical freight issues really are. And asking the people who care the most is probably not a good way to find out.

  8. Is that correct? Because I remember the guy from Intel at the E-Freight conference essentially saying delivery times were not very critical. My guess, and it is just that, is that international companies like Intel would need more like a 6 day delay, not 6 hours, for it to make much difference.

    It probably doesn’t matter to Intel; they can ship whenever.

    It IS a problem to the people who order the chips, because if they don’t have the chips when they are expecting them, then there’s a factory of motherboards that can’t be fully assembled. The alternative is these companies have to stockpile parts in a warehouse to cover any potential shortages due to transit delays.

    You’re right, it probably is more important to someone who is strictly local and needs to transport across the Portland metro area. But look at the trucks that go across town – the delivery trucks, cement trucks, gas tankers, garbage trucks, etc. Really – how much of that traffic could be handled on MAX? If a Safeway or Fred Meyer store in Beaverton runs out of a popular item because a delivery truck (from the Clackamas distribution centers) is stuck on I-205 (or 224, or I-84, or 217, or U.S. 26) – can MAX really make the situation better? Likely, any MAX freight service would be restricted to no larger than pallets (and must be no heavier than 5,000 pounds, since a forklift likely couldn’t be used due to limited clearances), and must be dry goods that don’t require temperature control.

    How many shippers are located that could meet these requirements? Again – there’s nothing on the westside except Intel and Tektronix, nothing on the I-Line, only the airport on the A-Line, nothing on the eastside, and nothing on the I-205 line. And I honestly have no idea how much manufacturing is done on the Tek campus.

    Back to Intel, I see quite a few 40′ and 45′ truck trailers at their dock at Hawthorne Farms. I wonder how much of their freight gets trucked to Sea-Tac.

  9. I remember seeing something awhile back on a Cargo Tram operation at Volkswagon’s Dresden Factory.

    [link]http://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/index2.jsp?lang=EN&dok=[/link]

  10. There aren’t many people along the MAX tracks that need a box car’s worth of stuff because people that need box car loads tend put their buildings along freight rail line in the first place. Would some of them relocate to the MAX line if the MAX line carried box cars? Probably not, the land is too expensive…

    However, plenty of people along the MAX line need a smaller amounts of stuff, more often then not, going to or from the airport. There is still plenty of capacity in the system during non-rush hours, so what if FedEx ran a train from Hillsboro to the airport between 9:30 and 3, and 6 to 9? Certainly, customers with commercial accounts, (i.e. that could just put their package on the train,) could drop off their packages into [locked down when nobody was around] rolling bins at the stations, and when the train went by, a “car attendant” could roll an empty bin out and roll the full one on… And, if you had something big, meet the train yourself with a pallet jack or a forklift, (Tektronix drives their forklifts across the MAX tracks all the time, they have buildings on both sides of the tracks, so it wouldn’t be much trouble for them to stop at the station, except for the benches in the way.) Likewise, the FedEx trucks in Hillsboro and Beaverton could unload directly onto the train, instead of going out to the airport themselves. And they could pick up loads coming from the airport as well…

  11. Portland has actually retained more manufacturing jobs than most cities, they are concentrated in N/NW Portland along the major rail lines and the Willamette River.
    Local delivery outfits will find a way to work with what they have…if UPS can’t deliver on time, Fed Ex is there to take their business, etc.
    Traded sector business is what’s critical, and lots of that product is shifting from actual things to information/management.
    The biggest export out of T-6 is straw cubes and empty containers.

  12. (Tektronix drives their forklifts across the MAX tracks all the time, they have buildings on both sides of the tracks, so it wouldn’t be much trouble for them to stop at the station, except for the benches in the way.) Likewise, the FedEx trucks in Hillsboro and Beaverton could unload directly onto the train, instead of going out to the airport themselves. And they could pick up loads coming from the airport as well…

    My forklift comment has to do with the forklift driving INTO the train, not across the tracks. (Yes, on a “real” railroad, the forklifts drive INTO the boxcar.) Would a MAX car-cum-express motor support the weight of a forklift on it, and would the forklift be able to fit between the floor and the ceiling (remember there’s a live wire right above it!)

    Look at this website: http://www.stubchaer.com/PE_HiRes/index.htm (bottom picture, left column. BTW, that car partially pictured on the left is a former Southern Pacific Red Electric coach car, used between Portland and Corvallis, that was converted by the Pacific Electric as a express motor!!)

    And UPS and FedEx’s terminals (that serve Washington County) are in Tualatin, not at PDX (UPS is on Swan Island, anyways, and they also have a Vancouver facility. They don’t have a sort facility at PDX.) From a purely logistical standpoint, how would using MAX benefit either company? FedEx is over 2.5 miles off the MAX line at PDX – that would be one expensive “conveyor belt” just to get to the existing MAX line, and then a new sort facility would have to be built between Beaverton and Hillsboro.

  13. They could also invest in a few electrical locomotives to pull roadrailers from one side of the area to the other.

    I don’t think that such an arrangement would work due to sharp curves and/or close clearances:

    Sorry, should’ve specified these would be the small locomotives like they had back in the 1900-30s – shorter than 30′. If there isn’t a reason to move heavy loads, or move loads quickly, it seems a very small traction motor could be used.

  14. RE: my comments right above this.
    The HTML tags didn’t stick, so that second line should be in italic as I am quoting Erik from above.

  15. Sorry, should’ve specified these would be the small locomotives like they had back in the 1900-30s – shorter than 30′.

    I don’t think it’s the locomotive that’s the problem, I think it’s the RoadRailer that’s the problem.

    Modern RoadRailers are 53′ long. According to Gunderson’s website, they have some 50′ boxcars that can barely negotiate a 200′ radii curve. Because the RoadRailers are coupled closely together, I can’t imagine them being able to negotiate sharper curves (the space between two Roadrailers coupled together in rail configuration is closer than two standard freight cars).

    The curve west/south of Sunset Transit Center is 195 feet. South of Gateway TC (to the A-Line) is 110 feet. Too sharp.

  16. I don’t think it’s a problem of “can it be done” the problem I believe is “should it be done”. What’s the cost savings (if it exists) vs. running a truck to wherever it needs to go.

    The only economical prospect is the airport idea. Getting cargo to the airport along the MAX line has some decent prospects. Then of course with the FRA rules of 3 minute headways and such I doubt that introducing something of that sort would be good for passenger MAXs. Congestion would be an immediate issue. Being that the west side line will probably be reaching very close to capacity that any freight system would be prepared to come online.

    The other MAJOR ISSUE to this whole prospect is the simple fact that there is already a freight line that goes out that way that IS USED. So are we going to use a subsidized line to compete against a non-subsidized line? Not cool, not cool at all. Government subsidized competition has already destroyed honest competition as often or more than the theoretical monopolistic practices.

    Speaking of that, any ideas ever been bandied about of creating commuter rail from Forrest Grove w/ the Portland & Western similar to what is being done down to Wilsonville? That ROW that is active could be used for some early morning trips from Forrest Grove and transfer at Beaverton. It would definitely make the trip from Hillsboro to downtown more reasonable. The hour it takes from downtown and vice versa is kind of ridiculous.

  17. The issue isn’t competing with the Portland & Western, it’s competing with the dozens of same-day, next-day, LTL and air cartage services that operate in Portland.

    Honestly, I think that such a freight operation might actually violate federal law (in that a transit agency which receives federal funding, such as TriMet, cannot offer services that private enterprise is willing and able to do).

    The P&W mostly hauls rock, logs, chemicals, and lumber. None of this cargo would go on a trolley line.

    As for commuter rail on the Tillamook Branch (the current freight line that parallels TV Highway from Beaverton to Hillsboro; continues north to Banks or the Seghers Branch west to Cornelius and Forest Grove) – what would be the benefit of having something potentially compete with MAX, TriMet would use it to eliminate the 57, and it would provide less service? Plus everyone would be forced into transferring at Beaverton anyways. It might save 10 minutes at best. Someone who was bent on saving the 10 minutes would do better to drive to Sunset TC.

    If Portland had the potential of a true commuter rail network (so that a train from downtown Portland would stop at Beaverton, Aloha, Hillsboro, Cornelius and Forest Grove – ONLY) – I’d say go for it. But Portland-Beaverton is missing and will never come back; and Portland is too bent on light rail for everything. I’m putting my bets that TV Highway will ultimately become a freeway between 217 and the Shute Park. That would do much to eliminate congestion – especially in Beaverton.

Leave a Reply to Adron Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *