Following the discussion here over the weekend about employing the Vintage Trolleys on the Loop line, I spoke to Portland Streetcar Executive Director Rick Gustafson.
ADA concerns are not the only obstacle. Both the OMSI flyover on the east side and Harrison Street on the west side feature 7% grades. The braking systems on the trolleys would not be able to handle that steep a grade without upgrades – to the tune of $100K per car.
41 responses to “Vintage Brakes”
Isn’t the grade between Old Town/Chinatown station and the Steel Bridge 7%?
So, $200K out of the contingency funds?
Good point. They could handle the Steel Bridge approach, so why not Harrison and OMSI?
Harrison isn’t an issue if we’re only concerned about supplementing the CL line int he short term, but the OMSI flyover is indeed an issue…
There is nowhere at the OMSI end to get from MLK back to Grand without using the flyover, correct? Or can you switch at the top end without negotiating the grade?
If so, instead of short-lining at the Pearl as is the case today, the CL would use streetcars (modern or vintage) to serve all stops except OMSI. A single shuttle bus would serve OMSI and the closest two stops on MLK/Grand.
One more thought: If you can’t turn around without going over the grade, is the issue with the rating of the brakes one of passenger load? Are the brakes within capacity limits at 7% so long as the car is empty? You could perform the same shuttle operation as described above but take the empty vintage car all the way down to the OMSI platform that way.
It would still be a bit confusing and inconvenient for passengers (compared to fully operating regular service) but I think it would be a lot less confusing than short-lining in the Pearl and easier to describe … no long walks or corners for transfers, no intersecting with another line … all transfers would be on the same platform and easy to explain as everything would involve the same destination (OMSI).
So, $200K out of the contingency funds?
It was judged not to be a good investment for a handful of months benefit.
I really think the vintage trolleys would be useful on the streetcar line during the summer tourist season. Streetcars are commonly packed, and it would be a great tourist attraction, complementing with the destinations: Pearl, OMSI, Powell’s, Tram, etc. I think this upgrade could have more than just a few months benefit. Why is there so much opposition towards the vintage trolleys at Trimet and Portland Streetcar? MUNI seems to embrace their vintage rolling stock…
Is MUNI’s stock ADA-compatible?
MUNI uses wayside lifts at select stops along the line. The lifts are similar to what MAX used to use before low-floor cars were introduced.
I don’t think we’d need lifts for the vintage trolleys if they were run as “extra” service on an existing line that is otherwise accessible.
And $200K for “a handful of months benefit” is one thing, but the long-term benefit could be extra peak service on both lines for years or decades to come.
Isn’t the grade between Old Town/Chinatown station and the Steel Bridge 7%?
“The west approach to the Steel Bridge features a brief seven percent grade, the steepest on the MAX system.”
MUNI uses wayside lifts at select stops along the line.
I believe the list you gave earlier showed mainly ramps and only a few lifts.
A single shuttle bus would serve OMSI and the closest two stops on MLK/Grand.
It’s unfortunate that the driving route is so much longer, and that there’s no switch to go from MLK southbound onto Stephens that would avoid the flyover altogether.
Overall, this reminds me how it was the RiverPlace extension (with the Harrison hill) that led to end of the use of the Vintage Trolleys on the streetcar tracks.
And are they really “vintage brakes”, considering that the cars are modern replicas and not the Portuguese cars that Bill Naito bought?
“vintage brakes” was just a cute title. I’m sure they are perfectly adequate for their original specs.
DC looking at purchasing vintage cars for streetcar line:
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/light-rail/dc-ponders-pcc-streetcar-option.html?channel=61#.UHSg6D2K9UA
I would like to know why there is so much fuss about the Portland Streetcar “situation” when this is standard operating procedure for bus service.
So you have to wait an extra five or ten minutes for your streetcar. Get over yourselves. Be lucky you were handed well over $100 million in nice air conditioned streetcars, well improved Streetcar stops with shelters and Nextbus displays and schedules and even lights and garbage cans and benches and a TVM that accepts credit cards. Be glad that TriMet’s regional taxpayers pay $10 million for your beloved service – I don’t get an air conditioned bus, I get a bus stop that is nothing more than a bus stop sign attached to the sidewalk on the side of a highway, and if I don’t travel during rush hour, I now get a lovely inconvenient transfer which can be as many as 27 minutes which used to be a one minute stop-open door-close door-go procedure. And I better carry cash…
AND – I get the pleasure of paying 250% more for my “service” compared to Streetcar.
Don’t like the Streetcar? Ride your bike. Walk. Or take any of the dozens of bus routes that duplicate the Streetcar service. You have options. Explain that to the good taxpayers in King City. Or Sherwood. Or much of Tigard. Pushing a wheelchair up and over Bull Mountain to get to Walgreen’s isn’t exactly a reasonable option.
As for the “Vintage Trolleys”…sell them. Use the money on something that will actually provide service, rather than something that sits in a warehouse underneath a freeway while we continue to depend on 22 year old decrepit, worn out buses that should have been scrapped.
Beyond the payroll tax which all employers pay, property owners along the new Streetcar line put up 10% of total cost or $15M thru an LID. Time for an transit LID in Tigard!
Erik,
Yes. Living in the suburbs and using public transit sucks. We know that. My job is in the suburbs, so I ride my bike or carpool.
“…. we continue to depend on 22 year old decrepit, worn out buses that should have been scrapped.”
>>>>> The oldest buses are now being replaced with the current arrivals of the 3000 series buses.
I get the pleasure of paying 250% more for my “service” compared to Streetcar.
You know that’s not true as you have an employer-funded annual pass. You recently brought up an issue with getting your new one. (If you can provide proof that you do pay for it, I’ll apologize.)
Besides, that “250% more” can get you a lot farther. Streetcar certainly won’t get you home to Tigard or anywhere else across the region.
Also, how much money for the streetcar has come from other than TriMet? Are sidewalks not Tigard’s (or Washington County’s) responsibility? It seems clear to me the problem is on the jurisdictions which have shown little care for transit riders and pedestrians, not the ones which have pushed much money for them, even if the specific things it gets used on are questionable.
If we want to be sticklers its 250% or 150% more
Erik,
You should look at moving to my neighborhood in inner-NE. You can get a 3 bedroom 2 bath for around $300k. Short walk to multiple bus lines and max. 20min ride downtown! We have sidewalks, bike lanes, several grocery stores in walking distance…
“I would like to know why there is so much fuss about the Portland Streetcar “situation” when this is standard operating procedure for bus service.”
Because streetcars attract a different class of people than buses — and by a different class of people, I mean a class of people WILLING TO MAKE MORE POLITICAL NOISE.
Isn’t it interesting? It’s true across most of the country! LA appears to be an exception.
Because streetcars attract a different class of people than buses — and by a different class of people, I mean a class of people WILLING TO MAKE MORE POLITICAL NOISE.
I will admit that there are folks who will ride the streetcar who avoid buses. But the population using the streetcar is quite diverse in any number of dimensions. The central city is home to both the upper and lower ends of the income spectrum in the city. The students and employees who occupy the central city during the day cover all classes and categories of our region.
Seriously … why AREN’T the vintage trolleys being used to augment Streetcar service on the NS line during peak hours? There are times I get on board the Streetcar and people are packed in like sardines. Adding a couple of trolleys to the line during those times would alleviate that a bit. And even if wheelchair users can’t board the trolleys, there will still be more room for them on the next streetcar coming along a few minutes later.
We have four cars that would be useful for peak congestion relief; why are they just gathering dust?
Seriously … why AREN’T the vintage trolleys being used to augment Streetcar service on the NS line during peak hours?
$$$. Money is probably a much-more limiting factor than vehicles.
Jason, from what I can glean they’ve got enough money in the contingency budgets to pay for this if they thought it was worth it. They clearly think it’s not. But it’s not really that much money to fix the brakes, it only looks questionable if you’re going to just use them for a couple months for the streetcar and then put them back in storage. But this would benefit both PSI and TriMet for years to come. I’d really like to see it become a permanent rolling interactive Interpretive display that also happens ti improve service.
Now, I do not know the price of the extra NextBus hardware. But it had better not cost much, this isn’t exactly cutting edge anymore. Anybody with an iPhone has a GPS transponder in their pocket with refresh times slightly better than TriMet’s via “Find My iPhone”. if you’re on iOS or Android and using maps while driving your current location, and direction, and velocity are sent back to the mothership so that they can figure out where the traffic backups are. There are open source software stacks used in industrial asset tracking, DIY “lojack” projects, quadcopter UAVs, etc.
I don’t know what exactly is inside those NextBus boxes, but I’d bet one could duct-tape a modern smartphone with a data connection and AGPS + GLONASS, magnetometer, accelerometer/gyroscope with some kind of serial/RS-232/whatever adapter to talk to whatever it needs from the internal systems and outperform the stuff they have out there. Few hundred hours integration probably?
Now, I’m not actually suggesting this, but what I’m getting at is TriMet does indeed have their own GPS system used on buses with a more coherent API, that from my experience it is more reliable than NextBus. And I think it’s due to see a polling time improvement soon, according to MacFarlane. When will Streetcar switch over to this? It’d make a lot of app developer’s and user’s lives easier.
Because streetcars attract a different class of people than buses — and by a different class of people, I mean a class of people WILLING TO MAKE MORE POLITICAL NOISE.
WTF? How did you come up with that crazy theory?
Please reread Chris’ response to this comment. The range of folks on Streetcar is very broad, and it carries many more people of all stripes than most TriMet bus lines.
I actually used the streetcar today, and yes, it is nicer than the bus.
I actually used the streetcar today, and yes, it is nicer than the bus.
The Mayans were right. Armageddon is really at hand. :)
That said–how do you think it compares with MAX (which I assume you have ridden many times in your career), and why do you like it better than the bus?
Is it the rather decrepit condition of TriMet’s bus fleet–how do you think a Streetcar compares to a 3000-series bus?
Is it the lower fare?
Is it a matter of ride quality?
Is it passenger demographics?
Today was my first opportunity to ride the CL line for “legitimate” transit purposes (not just trying it out or doing photo/video work for the streetcar organization).
My trip today involved dropping off a vehicle for repair and then returning home via transit. Because the service shop was in the central eastside (reasonably well-served by transit), I decided to not do any transit planning and then use a smartphone app or two to get myself home, whether that be via bus, streetcar, or MAX.
Interestingly (at least to me), the only transit option in the immediate vicinity of the repair shop was the Streetcar. The closest stop was SE Grand and Mill. This stop is served by multiple bus lines, but those all turn and cross the river into downtown. I needed to get north and then east. So my route involved streetcar and a transfer to MAX.
(To be fair, I could have walked 4 blocks north and caught a #6. But as of today, the streetcar is the only vehicle serving the eastside-only from the north end of the MLK viaduct to Broadway.)
My experience had a few snags, however.
1. The NextBus display at the stop itself was not operational.
2. Although realtime Streetcar arrivals are now being reported via Transit Tracker (yay), the predicted arrival of 11 minutes was incorrect. After the time reached 2 minutes, it hovered there between 1-2 minutes for a long time. My total wait was 26 minutes. I have some opinions on what’s wrong with the prediction which I hope to confirm and expand on in a future comment.
3. Didn’t interfere with my journey, but two of the stops scrolling on the onboard signs had typos, and there was a disagreement on stop names between the smartphone app (PDXBus) and the onboard announcements. Might be a Transit Tracker interface issue.
I’ve reported all of the above to streetcar management.
Another bit of trivia: I was essentially boarding at the 2nd stop, but there were over a dozen riders onboard already (coming from OMSI). 5 more boarded where I was. I wasn’t expecting anyone to deboard, but an entire group got off headed to Goodwill for shopping, apparently as tourists judging by comments I overheard. Interesting trip – science museum, Goodwill. Would have liked to know what was next on the agenda.
You should look at moving to my neighborhood in inner-NE. You can get a 3 bedroom 2 bath for around $300k. Short walk to multiple bus lines and max. 20min ride downtown! We have sidewalks, bike lanes, several grocery stores in walking distance…
That’s great Chris I.
I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding a buyer for my home, AND giving me an extra $100K for your $300,000 home (let’s just say that kind of expense was not within my home purchasing budget, so thanks for offering to buy 1/3rd of my house for free), AND cover the increased cost of childcare for my youngest child (I’ve priced downtown Portland childcare and it’s 200% higher than what I pay, and that’s for a “chain” daycare center – the center we use today is walking distance from my home and very well respected), AND ensure my older son gets a good quality education (which Portland Public Schools is not exactly known for – yet he takes many classes such as reading a full grade level higher than his actual grade in TTSD).
When you’re ready to send me the cashier’s check for $100,000, please let me know. I’ll even be nice enough to throw in my six year old Mazda5 for that (our one and only car). However, there’s no warranty on the Check Engine light that just came on three days ago.
You know that’s not true as you have an employer-funded annual pass. You recently brought up an issue with getting your new one. (If you can provide proof that you do pay for it, I’ll apologize.)
Jason I know it’s a little hard to swallow given your lack of employment status, but that is a benefit. Sure, I may not actually “pay” for it – I do not write the check out to TriMet for it – but I sure as hell work for it and am fortunate enough my employer has continued providing the benefit (albeit with the threat of discontinuing said benefit thanks to TriMet’s endless price hikes). Given the cutbacks to the tax benefits that my employer receives, my employer could just as easily give us the money rather than buying the pass. Or, pocketing the money as profit and telling us to go and buy our own way. I do pay – in terms of work I perform for my employer.
Also, how much money for the streetcar has come from other than TriMet? Are sidewalks not Tigard’s (or Washington County’s) responsibility? It seems clear to me the problem is on the jurisdictions which have shown little care for transit riders and pedestrians, not the ones which have pushed much money for them, even if the specific things it gets used on are questionable.
Let’s see:
TriMet – which is supposed to provide REGIONAL benefit but has consistently and reliably shunted those funds to downtown Portland – at the direct and proven expense taken by REGIONAL bus riders who have had endless fare hikes, declining service, and older and less reliable buses:
Metro – which is supposed to provide REGIONAL benefit but has all but denied money for regional bus improvements
ODOT – which is supposed to provide STATEWIDE benefit, but has entered into a voluntary agreement with TriMet (at TriMet’s urging) not to provide any funding for five years to help replace its bus fleet, so that ODOT will instead fund rail projects like the Streetcar
Federal Transit Administration – which at TriMet’s and Metro’s failure to seek grant funding, has failed to provide funding for bus replacements and instead funded rail projects.
And did property owners – not Portland, not the above – pay for all of the sidewalk improvements around the Streetcar line? Who pays for all the sidewalk improvements around a MAX station – such as Civic Drive or Rockwood – pretty sure TriMet paid for those.
Beyond the payroll tax which all employers pay, property owners along the new Streetcar line put up 10% of total cost or $15M thru an LID. Time for an transit LID in Tigard!
Better yet, time for Tigard – and every other suburb – to break away from TriMet and follow the lead of Wilsonville – drastic improvement in service, at lower payroll tax than TriMet, at lower fare than TriMet.
Heck, $10 million (that funds the Portland Streetcar) could fund a LOT of bus service.
“But the population using the streetcar is quite diverse in any number of dimensions”
Of course it is diverse in *most* dimensions, including income. But it’s LOUDER than the population using the buses.
This seems to be true in most of the US — people simply have higher standards for rail service. I’m actually somewhat curious as to why.
As I said, LA is an exception (with the Bus Riders’ Union, which is openly hostile to rail, making lots of noise demanding better bus service).
Really, I was responding to the question “Why don’t people complain when the streetcar service is degraded to the degraded level of service we expect from buses?”
Well, people just seem to expect more from railed vehicles. Or the people who ride railed vehicles expect more. There are some places in which “bus advocacy” has extended to demanding much better bus service, but it’s exceptionally rare; in contrast, demands for very high quality rail service seem to exist almost every place there *is* urban rail service. (There’s probably some exceptions. Cleveland?)
I’d love to understand the psychological background for this — but it’s simply an observation.
Better yet, time for Tigard – and every other suburb – to break away from TriMet and follow the lead of Wilsonville – drastic improvement in service, at lower payroll tax than TriMet, at lower fare than TriMet. Heck, $10 million (that funds the Portland Streetcar) could fund a LOT of bus service.
Erik,
Wilsonville, due to the heavy tech-industry presence there that grew up around the Xerox (formerly Tektronix) facility (who happens to be the employer of our very own Chris Smith), Wilsonville found it in the position of being a net payroll-tax donor to TriMet; withdrawing from the system was a rational thing for it to do.
Whether Tigard is in a position to do the same, I don’t know, but somewhat doubt it. Given that Tigard city leaders seem to be most interested in the SW corridor, withdrawal from TriMet doesn’t seem in the cards, unless a popular uprising were to occur. But the political center of Tigard (and of Washington County) are both to the left of Clackamas County, so I don’t see that happening in the near term.
Erik,
Weird. It’s almost like people assign more value to areas with good transit access and walking scores…
You choose to live in the suburbs. You could buy a smaller house for $200k in a well-connected neighborhood and find a daycare in that neighborhood, rather than downtown. There’s a 2 bed, 1 bath next to me for $199k, and we have reasonably priced daycare nearby. But we all make choices. You get a bigger house and poor bus service.
Bob,
Thanks for the rundown on using Streetcar on the eastside. I noticed cars running only every 1/2 hour or so. Was that for the weekend? or are they really short of cars and cutting back. CEID should get parking meters installed and steer that money to Streetcar operations to get frequency up as the new cars arrive.
After the time reached 2 minutes, it hovered there between 1-2 minutes for a long time.
I’m guessing a car may have stayed at OMSI for longer than the system thought it would. Unfortunately, it can’t tell when a vehicle will actually begin a trip.
which Portland Public Schools is not exactly known for
Could that maybe because families like you have left them along with the money every student brings from the state? Not to mention that families in new developments (I know this doesn’t include you) get to force everybody in the district to pay for the new schools they need.
lack of employment status
I’ve been working (and doing actual labor, not sitting behind a computer listening to whiny customers) continuously since May. And have had few problems getting to work.
I may not actually “pay” for it
Thanks for admitting you haven’t been telling the truth. Many times, you have cited fare increases as if you had to buy individual cash fares. Is your employer having to pay more? Maybe, but it’s not money that would otherwise necessarily go to you.
Moreover, most employees, including myself, who decide to take transit must not only pay for it themselves but also lose out on the “free” parking they are given as they are unable to sell, rent or otherwise make money off it. I’m guessing you may not have that problem, so you probably have plenty of monetary encouragement to take transit.
pay for all of the sidewalk improvements around the Streetcar line?
Given that new development is required to pay for their sidewalks, and given that the sidewalk improvements are mostly new sidewalks in front of new developments, I’d say the property owners probably did pay for them.
pretty sure TriMet paid for those
Some of those come from the project funding, little of which has come from TriMet, and some are funded by/through local jurisdictions. See e.g. Gresham’s Ped to MAX.
Heck, $10 million (that funds the Portland Streetcar) could fund a LOT of bus service.
It’s not like Tigard would get that money. Moreover, Wilsonville has had not only a high amount of jobs, but a high amount of high-paying jobs which result in higher payroll tax receipts than average e.g. retail jobs.
Knock off the personal stuff! No commenter’s personal behavior, choice of residence or other personal status is suitable for discussion on this blog. Stick to policy!
Back to Streetcar… I noticed that the “Streetcar whine” (which at first I did not like, but have come to appreciate as a signal that I need to hustle up the street for my ride) is quit a bit louder on the Made In USA car. I found it rather unpleasant as a rider; a staff person told me the other day it gave him a headache. He said the new cars due later this year have a different propulsion system and should be quieter, more like the imported models. True?