42 responses to “Boom Times for Streetcar Builders”
Ya it’s absolutely nuts! More Americans living in poverty and without health insurance than anytime in history, unemployment/underemployment rampant, and what are these cities doing?
BUILDING STREET CARS!
Do we need any more evidence of government malfeasance?
Building streetcars, or highways, or parks, or sewers, or any other infrastructure project does not cause poverty and unemployment and lack of insurance. That’s a complete non-sequitor. Typical Tea Party logic (or lack thereof).
Aaron Hall Says: B***S***
Building streetcars, or highways, or parks, or sewers, or any other infrastructure project does not cause poverty and unemployment and lack of insurance. That’s a complete non-sequitor. Typical Tea Party logic (or lack thereof). JK: Bull Excrement!
Building useless things wastes money that could have been put to better use. When the government wastes money, extracted form people, it reduces the wealth of our whole society and pushes everyone lower on the economic ladder, resulting in more property and un-employment. You appear to think that the government knows how best how to spend money instead of those ACTUALLY USING the results of said spending. In other words the government knows your needs better than you do! All I can say to that concept is bull shat.
For instance:
We could employ thousands building a pyramid or provide medical care for thousands of low income people or improve our schools. Which should we do?
We could build a transport system for people that will cost $1.25 to transport each person each mile, or one that will cost $0.25 to transport each person each mile. Which would you choose?
We could build (taxpayer subsidized) high rise housing at $139 per sq ft or (owner pays) low rise at $67 per sq ft. Which would you choose?
Ah, more nonsense and garbage math from our resident troll. So if you don’t use a specific piece of infrastructure, it’s useless? Yeah, that’s brilliant. I don’t use the St John’s bridge, so it’s completely useless, right? I don’t use the parks in SE Portland, so yep, useless again. I don’t ride the 58 bus….. I don’t use the VA Hospital….. I don’t drive on Capitol Hwy, etc., etc.
Just because YOU don’t use something, that doesn’t make it useless. Or just because you THINK something is useless, doesn’t mean it IS useless. The world does not revolve around YOU. Like the Tea Party, you start with falsified “facts” and twist them to suit your warped vision of how civilization should work. If it wasn’t so dangerously irresponsible, it would be very sad.
I guess since every major city in the country is looking to build streetcars, every major city in the country is completely inept and should be run by people like you? That would be like putting creationists in charge of the museum of natural history. Or more directly, putting people who don’t believe in government in charge of running the government.
Good news. These are still unsure times with regards to transportation funding, though. I think we need to take a serious look at the federal funding model.
“Building useless things wastes money that could have been put to better use. When the government wastes money, extracted form people, it reduces the wealth of our whole society and pushes everyone lower on the economic ladder, resulting in more property and un-employment.”
And American private enterprise is finding such vastly better use for society’s money and capital: outsourcing, foreign tax shelters, bubbles, derivatives, dark money pools, and political corruption/vote buying (ahem…first amendment-protected donations).
I have nothing to do with the tea party.
BUT YOU ******* ***** just don’t get it do you?
You heads are so fogged up in the Church of Light Rail rhetoric that you have been blinded by reality!
THEY HAVE BEEN CUTTING BUS SERVICE *******!
People can’t get to work!
We don’t need no ******* streetcars, people need to get to work and they need BUSES right now to do that!
Can you get that through your ******* heads!
The government has failed in protecting the American people, this is just another example.
And I suggest you go read the article about the streetcar starting requiring fares.
Most people have stated they will not be riding that thing if they have to pay for it.
I can’t wait to see what happens to ridership over there when they start creating some semblance of transit equity in this town instead of pretending that ‘EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL’ and green washing everything that comes out of the mouths of the phony government officials!
I don’t think anybody here is anti-bus, Al. And nobody said you were a tea-partier either. You don’t have to be anti-rail to be pro-bus. Yes we need to improve bus service, that’s an ongoing challenge. But railing against rail (pun intended) doesn’t help your case. Frankly, we need better rail service as well, but not at the exclusion of buses.
The fact that people are willing to pay more indicates that there is an added value, and because of this added value, it will be more likely to foster dense development.
Two other important notes:
– Price increases are not generally observed for bus transit because they lack the permanence of rail transit. However, fixed bus-rapid-transit routes, like the bus-only corridors in Pittsburgh, did offer a measurable appreciation effect on nearby housing.
– Building transit stations near freeway facilities can counteract the livability benefits of transit and lessen or even eliminate housing price appreciation. (Ahem, Green Line)
Alright boys and girls, lets keep the rhetoric civil. JK isn’t a tea-partier (he’s an honest-to-goodness Libertarian), even if he does agree with some TPers on public transportation issues.
Whether or not building streetcar lines (or light rail, or bus service, or bike infrastructure, or highways, etc.) is a worthwhile investment of public dollars–regardless of who winds up with the money–is a useful and important question to ask. But this thread is starting to unravel.
I never was anti rail either.
Your not getting my point though.
One more try:
The TRIMET General Manager informed the board of directors that it will take 10 years to restore peak hour service to its pre “recession” levels.
Why is that? Because the payroll tax dried up supposedly.
(some cities have abandoned transit all together and others have had fatal cut backs)
B-U-T;
Our beloved Federal government, which seems to be wrong on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE THEY FUND, has decided that service is not important, and won’t allow there little kitty of our tax dollars to be used to fund operations.
No, but look around the country, there are dozens of these ‘specialty’ street car projects being installed. All with massive federal bucks!
Every single one of them extols the virtues of the ‘economic growth’ that will occur when they install this little toy.
And they all hold PORTLAND UP AS THE EXAMPLE.
All these folks from all around the country, and even the world, come to Portland to see the WONDERS OF OUR INCREDIBLE SYSTEM OF TRAINS which run in every which direction all over the downtown Portland area.
They think its just wonderfully magical and head on back to there little places and immediately start applications to get some of this tax money to install these things which will then supposedly bring all the big money boys to town who WILL LINE UP TO BUILD STUFF ALONG THE LINES.
Meanwhile, back at the real world, people that actually need transit are just SH** out of luck!
Too bad for you folks, the federal government has turned its back on you, AGAIN, in favor of THE BIG MONEY.
Then they say “it will create 1,000,000 jobs! Just think of it! Even if the claim were true, which it isnt, the jobs are temporary, and after the project all the people fall back into poverty.
And of course, working people that need transit, they don’t need the stupid streetcars, cause they don’t actually go anywhere and you can walk faster anyway!
The simple fact is that before the Green Line opened getting to the good jobs on Swan Island from outer SE Portland and N. Clackamas on transit was a non-starter…even though you could take one bus the whole way; it just took too long. Now its 30 minutes from CTC to the Rose quarter via MAX and another 10-15 to Swan Island on the 85 Swan Island bus. And I dare anyone to tell me an hour plus on the 72 is just as good as 50 minutes on the Green Line and 85. Ain’t even close. Note: cuts were made in MAX service as well as bus service due to the recession.
Just to be clear, I never called anybody here a tea-partier. I said, certain individuals here were using the same flawed logic that tea-partiers use when they protest against one thing or another. They assume their BELIEFS are FACTS, and don’t bother to pursue any argument that might conflict with their infallible beliefs. Religious zealots do the same thing.
Also, whenever somebody refers to rail transit as “toy trains”, they are in fact biased against rail. That’s fine if you are, but don’t try to claim otherwise.
If streetcars are such a failure, then why is every major city in the country scrambling to build them? Easy answer…. they’re NOT failures. Portland would not be getting the attention we get now if our streetcars were failures. Also, claiming the economy has gone to hell because we’re building rail is probably the most non-sensical argument yet.
“And in Portland, folks are willing to fork over an additional 31 percent for an abode within one-quarter mile of a rail transit station along the Westside extension line.”
Anyone who buys that is hopeless.
Lenny,
Tell me, how many people have you imagined are using the green line to commute from CTC to Swan Island? One?
The Green Line was an extreme waste of money. Similar to WES and a linchpin to the insane $200 million/mile Milwaukie Light Rail and $300 million/mile CRC/Light Rail.
Has WES helped commuters to Swan Island as well? The Tram?
Chris I,
TriMet doesn’t do rapid transit or high capacity transit. The fact that you think they do and that McLoughlin buses are stuck in Traffic makes “debating” you useless.
That link claiming Westside MAX increases property values is beneath debating.
They might as well claimed that about Rockwood.
:)
Or how about the Round?
I wonder what will eventually be credited for creating the Round. MAX, the millions already wasted, or the upcoming $150 million Urban Renewal plan?
Actually TriMet already credits MAX for spurring, leveraging or linchpinning the Round.
In 1998 we specifically purchased a house in Aloha that was near the West Side light rail – even though at the time there were significantly more and less expensive options in other areas of Washington county.
In 2003 we specifically purchased a house in SE Portland due to it’s proximity to 4 bus lines and the planned Milwaukie light rail line (which alas was not built before we left).
In 2009 we specifically sought after and paid more for residence that was within walking distance of the Blue, Green, and Red MAX lines as well as a decent walk from the Yellow line MAX, and within a stones throw of the future east side street car.
I have family still in Portland who has selected rentals with higher rent so that they could be on the Portland Streetcar line and use it for school and work, rather than saving money on rent and being farther from convenient easy comfortable and accessible trains.
This year we moved to Memphis, Tennessee. Now I am not within any accessible distance of any real transit – especially since the transit which does serve the area is peak-commute times only, and doesn’t even run _at all_ outside normal business hours.
I really really really miss my Tri-Met.
I like trains. Busses work, sure – but people just like trains. Call them “toy trains” or whatever you want. The truth is trains are nicer for most people and will attract riders that busses won’t. And in all actuality, once people get used to riding transit via trains – they will often start using busses more too because they have more transit experience. But many people will never *start* riding if a bus is their only option – busses in America have a stigma of being only for the destitute… I remember when I first got started in Portland transportation on usenet – I think it was pdxtrans newsgroup or something like that… People had signatures that said “Losers ride the bus”.
Here in Tennessee when I mention that I would ride the bus downtown, people ask me “Why on earth would you do that?” In their minds busses are for people who are too poor to afford cars. No one here is a “choice rider” (or at least almost no one).
I do know one thing though, Tennessee would love to have those streetcar building jobs. This state, and specifically this metro area, will sacrifice their firstborn to get jobs (it clearly doesn’t work all that well, but that is a different topic). I fail to see how jobs building and installing and operating streetcar are somehow bad jobs. Those people get insurance and pay for schools and buy goods – just like anyone else. It makes no sense to rail (haha – punny!) against the streetcar industry on the grounds of jobs would be better elsewhere…
I concur with John. I paid a small premium for my house near the I-84 MAX corridor. Because of our proximity to numerous transit options and quality bike facilities, my wife and I only have one car, saving us thousands of dollars every year.
Apparently Steve thinks that I’m mentally challenged for thinking access to rail transit is more valuable. Steve, just because you live in suburbia, and transit has no value to you, doesn’t mean that it is not valuable to others.
Just look at the housing advertisements for properties near transit:
At least now folks on Swan Island coming from outer SE/N Clackamas have a choice. The Tram? how about the value of helping the region’s only research institution and largest employer grow.
WES? you can get to Swan Island is just over an hour from Wilsonville via WES, Blue/Red and the 85, which is pretty amazing. Another choice. Why not build a transit network that offers that?
Every freeway corridor needs to have high capacity, reliable and comfortable transit as an option. Milwaukie’s next, then Tigard and Vancouver.
Facts don’t matter to zealots. They have a belief and they’ll stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to disprove that belief. It’s why low and middle-class voters will consistently vote for Republicans despite every indication that they work solely for the wealthy and the corporations. They “believe” that Republicans have “values”, so they keep voting for the very people who make their lives worse. It’s like a mass epidemic of Stockholm’s Syndrome.
Aaron Hall Says: Facts don’t matter to zealots. They have a belief and they’ll stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to disprove that belief. JK: That is why some keep promoting energy wasting transit to save the earth.
That is why some claim slow, expensive transit is more livable than fast, cheap cars.
Aaron Hall Says: It’s why low and middle-class voters will consistently vote for Republicans despite every indication that they work solely for the wealthy and the corporations. JK: Yep. All those wealthy corporations taking money from our schools, and social services to build the Pearl and SoWhat, light rail, streetcars, and trams.
Aaron Hall Says: They “believe” that Republicans have “values”, so they keep voting for the very people who make their lives worse. JK: That’s why a lot are turning to 912, Beck & the Tea Party – sick of the Democrats and some Republicans favoring big money campaign donors. (Funny thing – most top Democrats are millionaires.)
Another big faction of the Rs and Ls don’t think it is moral to accept government money taken from others at the point of a gun (try not paying your taxes – you will see if an armed agent of the state.)
It wouldn’t be so bad if METRO merely planned public transit for those who are living here now. Instead they are anticipating a future where the choice for expensive rail transit is validated by a much higher population, thus yielding a higher number of transit riders.
So,I bet there will that much more inflation of the region, too. I am not talking about only in the Portland METRO area. I mean the whole state, as there would be more usage of travel and hospitality facilities in other parts of the state, too.
Touting the Pearl District as a success, has little meaning to most people who live in this area. I enjoyed it before it was even conceived of as the “Pearl” District and used to work in a building very close to the REI store. Now, it is an area beyond the affordability of most people around here.
I am not opposed to a credible mass transit plan. I’ve posted on here articles and comments about what other cities are doing, for affordable sums. In fact if the Republicans gain greater control of Congress it should force municipalities into more critical thinking regarding the wisest investments they can make.
“For less than what a lot of people pay to rent crappy homes in Vancouver you could have a nice apartment in the Pearl easy.”
The lowest prices I found were around 1200 dollars per month for a studio plus 100 or more for parking one car. And that is not immediately–you are placed on a list of rent controlled apts. Or if your earnings are below a certain point ( and you may know some easy access to other freebies) about $650 for the affordable apartments.
And could people put up a family in one of those as they could in a house in Vancouver?
ws Says: Park the car and take transit. A lot of people do it, even with kids. JK: and a lot of people do not have time to waste on transit.
And a lot of people do not feel good taking public money for 80% of their transportation costs.
Oh, and I doubt that very many people with kids take their kids on transit if they can afford a car. Especially grocery shopping. Or to Home Depot. Or to Walmart. Or to Fry’s (but I haven’t seen any data on this – have you?).
al m: “Because the hapless, useless FEDS are giving away money!”
The hapless, useless feds are not just “giving” money away to anyone who wants to build a streetcar (or what you call a toy train). There are multiple hurdles that have to be cleared before even being considered for funding. And even then, municipalities need to provide the majority of the capital and operating costs themselves. It’s not a freebie for them. It’s a serious financial commitment on the part of every one of these cities.
So again, when the economy is this bad and money is so hard to come by, why is every major city so eager to invest in streetcars? Is it because they’re “failures”? Is that what you truly believe? That EVERY MAJOR CITY wants to invest in a failure? Really? Seriously? That’s your belief? You don’t see the disconnect between your belief and reality?
We all know you think TriMet should be spending more on buses than rail transit. We get that, you’re loud and clear on that. But simply wanting more buses doesn’t negate the benefits of rail. You seem to be completely blinded by your advocacy for buses.
-There’s grocery stores in downtown Portland and in the Pearl. There’s even a grocery outlet store in the Pearl for bulk/cheap foods. (Insert another recycled comment: “Well you can’t walk with groceries and a kid”)
-You can buy electronics and computer hardware online for cheaper, usually with lower prices than Fry’s. Fry’s is in the middle of nowhere, anyways, again that whole gas cost.
-The Pearl and Inner Eastside have hardware stores. I’m not sure a condo or apartment dweller is in need of major repairs which would warrant a trip to Home Depot, but even so it’s available by transit too.
The automobile is a fantastic transportation tool, but our over-reliance makes people assume it’s the best transportation mode of all for all trips.
That’s not to say that someone should live in a dense environment if they have children. I am only making the argument that it’s not impossible as you’re saying, and you’re trying to inject the auto/suburban model of living into an urban environment.
Personally, I’ll let the person with the family choose, but I feel we should be more accommodating of families in cities and there’s room for improvement.
ws Says: I am well aware of your recycled arguments. JK: Recycled claims beget recycled arguments.
ws Says: -There’s grocery stores in downtown Portland and in the Pearl. JK: Now compare their prices with those at Winco, Costco, and Walmart by spending a few cents on gas.
ws Says: (Insert another recycled comment: “Well you can’t walk with groceries and a kid”) JK: Nice admission. Be sure to add taking the bus with a week’s worth of groceries and a few kids. (You are the one who brought up taking the kids on transi.)
ws Says: The automobile is a fantastic transportation tool, but our over-reliance makes people assume it’s the best transportation mode of all for all trips. JK: Reliance on transit is just, well slow, costly, inconvenient. And it sure didn’t help people get out of New Orleans.
ws Says: That’s not to say that someone should live in a dense environment if they have children. Personally, I’ll let the person with the family choose, JK: Except that is all that is being built withing Metro’s wall theses days.
ws Says: but I feel we should be more accommodating of families in cities and there’s room for improvement. JK: Yeah, like the days before Metro’s wall and before Metro forcing more density in our neighborhoods. And before the irrational anti-sprawl movement that is protecting yuppie wine country from city riff-raft.
Aaron G Says: “Except that is all that is being built withing Metro’s wall theses days.”
Houses get built. Plans I’ve seen on new additions to the UGB seem to all include single-family dwellings. JK: Metro wants more multi family.
And the single family that does get built costs double to triple what they would cost without Metro’s Wall. And they are on small lots. (Gottta save that farmland for growing potted plants and lawns!)
Of course the reality is that the whole wall thing is a corporate enrichment scheme to make local politically connected corporations rich at the expense of everyone else.
If we didn’t grow the potted plants and lawns where they are now (because houses would be there instead), where would they grow them? Cleared forest land even further out? Foreign countries?
So again, when the economy is this bad and money is so hard to come by, why is every major city so eager to invest in streetcars? Is it because they’re “failures”?
Our Federal Government is batting 100!
Every thing they are doing seems to be wrong.
Everything they do is helping THE BIG BOYS, and that includes these street car programs.
Who is this really going to benefit in the long term?
THE DEVELOPERS, and the people that live along that development.
You folks have to remember, I spend my work days dealing with people that have a hard time getting to and from work, why?
Because their bus service has been cut!
Now that we have had this little discussion, I suggest you read the Trimet General Managers latest THOUGHTS!
This does not sound very encouraging to me, does it too you?
So what do you think is next to be chopped away at?
And all the while they keep expanding, street cars and light rail.
How can you expand when your broke?
And we won’t even bring up the unfunded liability problem.
That’s the point, the FEDS are funding these little street car programs and meanwhile that guts of the established transit infrastructure is rotting away. And who is gonna pay the price, again its the little guy who actually needs transit!
The Federal government has turned out to be the biggest problem that we Americans face today.
jk: Of course the reality is that the whole wall thing is a corporate enrichment scheme to make local politically connected corporations rich at the expense of everyone else.
Oregon’s land use legislation, including the mandating of UGBs was in response to the creation of the Charbonneau development 40 years ago. Rather than a “corporate enrichment scheme” it was an attempt to protect undeveloped farmland, forests, wetlands, etc FROM developers.
Besides Governor Tom McCall, much of the support for SB 100 gave from a state senator who was also a Linn County dairy farmer.
If you have hard evidence to the contrary, please share it.
42 responses to “Boom Times for Streetcar Builders”
Ya it’s absolutely nuts! More Americans living in poverty and without health insurance than anytime in history, unemployment/underemployment rampant, and what are these cities doing?
BUILDING STREET CARS!
Do we need any more evidence of government malfeasance?
B***S***
Building streetcars, or highways, or parks, or sewers, or any other infrastructure project does not cause poverty and unemployment and lack of insurance. That’s a complete non-sequitor. Typical Tea Party logic (or lack thereof).
Aaron Hall Says: B***S***
Building streetcars, or highways, or parks, or sewers, or any other infrastructure project does not cause poverty and unemployment and lack of insurance. That’s a complete non-sequitor. Typical Tea Party logic (or lack thereof).
JK: Bull Excrement!
Building useless things wastes money that could have been put to better use. When the government wastes money, extracted form people, it reduces the wealth of our whole society and pushes everyone lower on the economic ladder, resulting in more property and un-employment. You appear to think that the government knows how best how to spend money instead of those ACTUALLY USING the results of said spending. In other words the government knows your needs better than you do! All I can say to that concept is bull shat.
For instance:
We could employ thousands building a pyramid or provide medical care for thousands of low income people or improve our schools. Which should we do?
We could build a transport system for people that will cost $1.25 to transport each person each mile, or one that will cost $0.25 to transport each person each mile. Which would you choose?
We could build (taxpayer subsidized) high rise housing at $139 per sq ft or (owner pays) low rise at $67 per sq ft. Which would you choose?
Thanks
JK
Ah, more nonsense and garbage math from our resident troll. So if you don’t use a specific piece of infrastructure, it’s useless? Yeah, that’s brilliant. I don’t use the St John’s bridge, so it’s completely useless, right? I don’t use the parks in SE Portland, so yep, useless again. I don’t ride the 58 bus….. I don’t use the VA Hospital….. I don’t drive on Capitol Hwy, etc., etc.
Just because YOU don’t use something, that doesn’t make it useless. Or just because you THINK something is useless, doesn’t mean it IS useless. The world does not revolve around YOU. Like the Tea Party, you start with falsified “facts” and twist them to suit your warped vision of how civilization should work. If it wasn’t so dangerously irresponsible, it would be very sad.
I guess since every major city in the country is looking to build streetcars, every major city in the country is completely inept and should be run by people like you? That would be like putting creationists in charge of the museum of natural history. Or more directly, putting people who don’t believe in government in charge of running the government.
Good news. These are still unsure times with regards to transportation funding, though. I think we need to take a serious look at the federal funding model.
“Building useless things wastes money that could have been put to better use. When the government wastes money, extracted form people, it reduces the wealth of our whole society and pushes everyone lower on the economic ladder, resulting in more property and un-employment.”
And American private enterprise is finding such vastly better use for society’s money and capital: outsourcing, foreign tax shelters, bubbles, derivatives, dark money pools, and political corruption/vote buying (ahem…first amendment-protected donations).
Let’s keep in mind that government is not building streetcars, government is BUYING them to provide an important public service.
The PRIVATE SECTOR is building them, creating lots of living way jobs.
I have nothing to do with the tea party.
BUT YOU ******* ***** just don’t get it do you?
You heads are so fogged up in the Church of Light Rail rhetoric that you have been blinded by reality!
THEY HAVE BEEN CUTTING BUS SERVICE *******!
People can’t get to work!
We don’t need no ******* streetcars, people need to get to work and they need BUSES right now to do that!
Can you get that through your ******* heads!
The government has failed in protecting the American people, this is just another example.
And I suggest you go read the article about the streetcar starting requiring fares.
Most people have stated they will not be riding that thing if they have to pay for it.
I can’t wait to see what happens to ridership over there when they start creating some semblance of transit equity in this town instead of pretending that ‘EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL’ and green washing everything that comes out of the mouths of the phony government officials!
I don’t think anybody here is anti-bus, Al. And nobody said you were a tea-partier either. You don’t have to be anti-rail to be pro-bus. Yes we need to improve bus service, that’s an ongoing challenge. But railing against rail (pun intended) doesn’t help your case. Frankly, we need better rail service as well, but not at the exclusion of buses.
How much more would you be willing to pay to live near rail-transit?
http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/09/12/the-housing-value-bonus-for-rail-transit-10-20-even-50-percent/
The fact that people are willing to pay more indicates that there is an added value, and because of this added value, it will be more likely to foster dense development.
Two other important notes:
– Price increases are not generally observed for bus transit because they lack the permanence of rail transit. However, fixed bus-rapid-transit routes, like the bus-only corridors in Pittsburgh, did offer a measurable appreciation effect on nearby housing.
– Building transit stations near freeway facilities can counteract the livability benefits of transit and lessen or even eliminate housing price appreciation. (Ahem, Green Line)
Alright boys and girls, lets keep the rhetoric civil. JK isn’t a tea-partier (he’s an honest-to-goodness Libertarian), even if he does agree with some TPers on public transportation issues.
Whether or not building streetcar lines (or light rail, or bus service, or bike infrastructure, or highways, etc.) is a worthwhile investment of public dollars–regardless of who winds up with the money–is a useful and important question to ask. But this thread is starting to unravel.
I never was anti rail either.
Your not getting my point though.
One more try:
The TRIMET General Manager informed the board of directors that it will take 10 years to restore peak hour service to its pre “recession” levels.
Why is that? Because the payroll tax dried up supposedly.
(some cities have abandoned transit all together and others have had fatal cut backs)
B-U-T;
Our beloved Federal government, which seems to be wrong on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE THEY FUND, has decided that service is not important, and won’t allow there little kitty of our tax dollars to be used to fund operations.
No, but look around the country, there are dozens of these ‘specialty’ street car projects being installed. All with massive federal bucks!
Every single one of them extols the virtues of the ‘economic growth’ that will occur when they install this little toy.
And they all hold PORTLAND UP AS THE EXAMPLE.
All these folks from all around the country, and even the world, come to Portland to see the WONDERS OF OUR INCREDIBLE SYSTEM OF TRAINS which run in every which direction all over the downtown Portland area.
They think its just wonderfully magical and head on back to there little places and immediately start applications to get some of this tax money to install these things which will then supposedly bring all the big money boys to town who WILL LINE UP TO BUILD STUFF ALONG THE LINES.
Meanwhile, back at the real world, people that actually need transit are just SH** out of luck!
Too bad for you folks, the federal government has turned its back on you, AGAIN, in favor of THE BIG MONEY.
Then they say “it will create 1,000,000 jobs! Just think of it! Even if the claim were true, which it isnt, the jobs are temporary, and after the project all the people fall back into poverty.
And of course, working people that need transit, they don’t need the stupid streetcars, cause they don’t actually go anywhere and you can walk faster anyway!
END OF RANT ON THIS TOPIC!
(my views are my own)
The simple fact is that before the Green Line opened getting to the good jobs on Swan Island from outer SE Portland and N. Clackamas on transit was a non-starter…even though you could take one bus the whole way; it just took too long. Now its 30 minutes from CTC to the Rose quarter via MAX and another 10-15 to Swan Island on the 85 Swan Island bus. And I dare anyone to tell me an hour plus on the 72 is just as good as 50 minutes on the Green Line and 85. Ain’t even close. Note: cuts were made in MAX service as well as bus service due to the recession.
Just to be clear, I never called anybody here a tea-partier. I said, certain individuals here were using the same flawed logic that tea-partiers use when they protest against one thing or another. They assume their BELIEFS are FACTS, and don’t bother to pursue any argument that might conflict with their infallible beliefs. Religious zealots do the same thing.
Also, whenever somebody refers to rail transit as “toy trains”, they are in fact biased against rail. That’s fine if you are, but don’t try to claim otherwise.
If streetcars are such a failure, then why is every major city in the country scrambling to build them? Easy answer…. they’re NOT failures. Portland would not be getting the attention we get now if our streetcars were failures. Also, claiming the economy has gone to hell because we’re building rail is probably the most non-sensical argument yet.
http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/09/12/the-housing-value-bonus-for-rail-transit-10-20-even-50-percent/
“And in Portland, folks are willing to fork over an additional 31 percent for an abode within one-quarter mile of a rail transit station along the Westside extension line.”
Anyone who buys that is hopeless.
Lenny,
Tell me, how many people have you imagined are using the green line to commute from CTC to Swan Island? One?
The Green Line was an extreme waste of money. Similar to WES and a linchpin to the insane $200 million/mile Milwaukie Light Rail and $300 million/mile CRC/Light Rail.
Has WES helped commuters to Swan Island as well? The Tram?
Here’s a new video
http://cascadepolicy.org/insider/2011/09/14/the-1-5b-mlr-alternative/
That’s a strong rebuttal to the Streetsblog link, Steve.
You should go into debate.
And those buses in the CPI video will be really nice, but they will be stuck in traffic with everyone else…
CPI seems to be missing the point of Bus *RAPID* Transit, or any kind of rapid transit, period.
Chris Smith: The PRIVATE SECTOR is building them, creating lots of living wage jobs.
Building them in Oregon, no less.
Chris I,
TriMet doesn’t do rapid transit or high capacity transit. The fact that you think they do and that McLoughlin buses are stuck in Traffic makes “debating” you useless.
That link claiming Westside MAX increases property values is beneath debating.
They might as well claimed that about Rockwood.
:)
Or how about the Round?
I wonder what will eventually be credited for creating the Round. MAX, the millions already wasted, or the upcoming $150 million Urban Renewal plan?
Actually TriMet already credits MAX for spurring, leveraging or linchpinning the Round.
It’s in the $8 billion fabricated figure.
That link claiming Westside MAX increases property values is beneath debating.
Nothing is “beneath debating”. If you have an argument and data about property values, provide the citations. Sneering is not debating, Steve.
“Anyone who buys that is hopeless. ”
Color me hopeless then.
In 1998 we specifically purchased a house in Aloha that was near the West Side light rail – even though at the time there were significantly more and less expensive options in other areas of Washington county.
In 2003 we specifically purchased a house in SE Portland due to it’s proximity to 4 bus lines and the planned Milwaukie light rail line (which alas was not built before we left).
In 2009 we specifically sought after and paid more for residence that was within walking distance of the Blue, Green, and Red MAX lines as well as a decent walk from the Yellow line MAX, and within a stones throw of the future east side street car.
I have family still in Portland who has selected rentals with higher rent so that they could be on the Portland Streetcar line and use it for school and work, rather than saving money on rent and being farther from convenient easy comfortable and accessible trains.
This year we moved to Memphis, Tennessee. Now I am not within any accessible distance of any real transit – especially since the transit which does serve the area is peak-commute times only, and doesn’t even run _at all_ outside normal business hours.
I really really really miss my Tri-Met.
I like trains. Busses work, sure – but people just like trains. Call them “toy trains” or whatever you want. The truth is trains are nicer for most people and will attract riders that busses won’t. And in all actuality, once people get used to riding transit via trains – they will often start using busses more too because they have more transit experience. But many people will never *start* riding if a bus is their only option – busses in America have a stigma of being only for the destitute… I remember when I first got started in Portland transportation on usenet – I think it was pdxtrans newsgroup or something like that… People had signatures that said “Losers ride the bus”.
Here in Tennessee when I mention that I would ride the bus downtown, people ask me “Why on earth would you do that?” In their minds busses are for people who are too poor to afford cars. No one here is a “choice rider” (or at least almost no one).
I do know one thing though, Tennessee would love to have those streetcar building jobs. This state, and specifically this metro area, will sacrifice their firstborn to get jobs (it clearly doesn’t work all that well, but that is a different topic). I fail to see how jobs building and installing and operating streetcar are somehow bad jobs. Those people get insurance and pay for schools and buy goods – just like anyone else. It makes no sense to rail (haha – punny!) against the streetcar industry on the grounds of jobs would be better elsewhere…
I concur with John. I paid a small premium for my house near the I-84 MAX corridor. Because of our proximity to numerous transit options and quality bike facilities, my wife and I only have one car, saving us thousands of dollars every year.
Apparently Steve thinks that I’m mentally challenged for thinking access to rail transit is more valuable. Steve, just because you live in suburbia, and transit has no value to you, doesn’t mean that it is not valuable to others.
Just look at the housing advertisements for properties near transit:
http://www.thesitka.com/
http://www.simpsonhousing.com/apartments/hillsboro-apartments/orenco-station-apartments/nexus-at-orenco-station/features-and-amenities/photo-gallery
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/apa/2596616764.html
http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetail.aspx?IS=1&ListingID=301095037
I honestly don’t understand how you can deny that access to permanent transit lines add value.
I honestly don’t understand how you can deny that access to permanent transit lines add value.
Because whenever reality conflicts with a strongly-held emotional belief, then clearly reality got it wrong.
At least now folks on Swan Island coming from outer SE/N Clackamas have a choice. The Tram? how about the value of helping the region’s only research institution and largest employer grow.
WES? you can get to Swan Island is just over an hour from Wilsonville via WES, Blue/Red and the 85, which is pretty amazing. Another choice. Why not build a transit network that offers that?
Every freeway corridor needs to have high capacity, reliable and comfortable transit as an option. Milwaukie’s next, then Tigard and Vancouver.
Facts don’t matter to zealots. They have a belief and they’ll stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to disprove that belief. It’s why low and middle-class voters will consistently vote for Republicans despite every indication that they work solely for the wealthy and the corporations. They “believe” that Republicans have “values”, so they keep voting for the very people who make their lives worse. It’s like a mass epidemic of Stockholm’s Syndrome.
Aaron Hall Says: Facts don’t matter to zealots. They have a belief and they’ll stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to disprove that belief.
JK: That is why some keep promoting energy wasting transit to save the earth.
That is why some claim slow, expensive transit is more livable than fast, cheap cars.
Aaron Hall Says: It’s why low and middle-class voters will consistently vote for Republicans despite every indication that they work solely for the wealthy and the corporations.
JK: Yep. All those wealthy corporations taking money from our schools, and social services to build the Pearl and SoWhat, light rail, streetcars, and trams.
Aaron Hall Says: They “believe” that Republicans have “values”, so they keep voting for the very people who make their lives worse.
JK: That’s why a lot are turning to 912, Beck & the Tea Party – sick of the Democrats and some Republicans favoring big money campaign donors. (Funny thing – most top Democrats are millionaires.)
Another big faction of the Rs and Ls don’t think it is moral to accept government money taken from others at the point of a gun (try not paying your taxes – you will see if an armed agent of the state.)
Thanks
JK
It wouldn’t be so bad if METRO merely planned public transit for those who are living here now. Instead they are anticipating a future where the choice for expensive rail transit is validated by a much higher population, thus yielding a higher number of transit riders.
So,I bet there will that much more inflation of the region, too. I am not talking about only in the Portland METRO area. I mean the whole state, as there would be more usage of travel and hospitality facilities in other parts of the state, too.
Touting the Pearl District as a success, has little meaning to most people who live in this area. I enjoyed it before it was even conceived of as the “Pearl” District and used to work in a building very close to the REI store. Now, it is an area beyond the affordability of most people around here.
I am not opposed to a credible mass transit plan. I’ve posted on here articles and comments about what other cities are doing, for affordable sums. In fact if the Republicans gain greater control of Congress it should force municipalities into more critical thinking regarding the wisest investments they can make.
Now, it is an area beyond the affordability of most people around here.
For less than what a lot of people pay to rent crappy homes in Vancouver you could have a nice apartment in the Pearl easy.
If streetcars are such a failure, then why is every major city in the country scrambling to build them?
~~~>Because the hapless, useless FEDS are giving away money!
You think people turn down money?
I don’t think so!
There is nothing wrong with streetcars, who the hell cares about them at all, I sure as hell don’t.
What I care about is people that can’t get to work because their bus has been cut.
“For less than what a lot of people pay to rent crappy homes in Vancouver you could have a nice apartment in the Pearl easy.”
The lowest prices I found were around 1200 dollars per month for a studio plus 100 or more for parking one car. And that is not immediately–you are placed on a list of rent controlled apts. Or if your earnings are below a certain point ( and you may know some easy access to other freebies) about $650 for the affordable apartments.
And could people put up a family in one of those as they could in a house in Vancouver?
Thanks for your informed opinion.
A studio in the Pearl is not 1,200 a month.
Park the car and take transit. A lot of people do it, even with kids.
ws Says: Park the car and take transit. A lot of people do it, even with kids.
JK: and a lot of people do not have time to waste on transit.
And a lot of people do not feel good taking public money for 80% of their transportation costs.
Oh, and I doubt that very many people with kids take their kids on transit if they can afford a car. Especially grocery shopping. Or to Home Depot. Or to Walmart. Or to Fry’s (but I haven’t seen any data on this – have you?).
Thanks
JK
al m: “Because the hapless, useless FEDS are giving away money!”
The hapless, useless feds are not just “giving” money away to anyone who wants to build a streetcar (or what you call a toy train). There are multiple hurdles that have to be cleared before even being considered for funding. And even then, municipalities need to provide the majority of the capital and operating costs themselves. It’s not a freebie for them. It’s a serious financial commitment on the part of every one of these cities.
So again, when the economy is this bad and money is so hard to come by, why is every major city so eager to invest in streetcars? Is it because they’re “failures”? Is that what you truly believe? That EVERY MAJOR CITY wants to invest in a failure? Really? Seriously? That’s your belief? You don’t see the disconnect between your belief and reality?
We all know you think TriMet should be spending more on buses than rail transit. We get that, you’re loud and clear on that. But simply wanting more buses doesn’t negate the benefits of rail. You seem to be completely blinded by your advocacy for buses.
JK:
I am well aware of your recycled arguments.
-There’s grocery stores in downtown Portland and in the Pearl. There’s even a grocery outlet store in the Pearl for bulk/cheap foods. (Insert another recycled comment: “Well you can’t walk with groceries and a kid”)
-You can buy electronics and computer hardware online for cheaper, usually with lower prices than Fry’s. Fry’s is in the middle of nowhere, anyways, again that whole gas cost.
-The Pearl and Inner Eastside have hardware stores. I’m not sure a condo or apartment dweller is in need of major repairs which would warrant a trip to Home Depot, but even so it’s available by transit too.
The automobile is a fantastic transportation tool, but our over-reliance makes people assume it’s the best transportation mode of all for all trips.
That’s not to say that someone should live in a dense environment if they have children. I am only making the argument that it’s not impossible as you’re saying, and you’re trying to inject the auto/suburban model of living into an urban environment.
Personally, I’ll let the person with the family choose, but I feel we should be more accommodating of families in cities and there’s room for improvement.
ws Says: I am well aware of your recycled arguments.
JK: Recycled claims beget recycled arguments.
ws Says: -There’s grocery stores in downtown Portland and in the Pearl.
JK: Now compare their prices with those at Winco, Costco, and Walmart by spending a few cents on gas.
ws Says: (Insert another recycled comment: “Well you can’t walk with groceries and a kid”)
JK: Nice admission. Be sure to add taking the bus with a week’s worth of groceries and a few kids. (You are the one who brought up taking the kids on transi.)
ws Says: The automobile is a fantastic transportation tool, but our over-reliance makes people assume it’s the best transportation mode of all for all trips.
JK: Reliance on transit is just, well slow, costly, inconvenient. And it sure didn’t help people get out of New Orleans.
ws Says: That’s not to say that someone should live in a dense environment if they have children. Personally, I’ll let the person with the family choose,
JK: Except that is all that is being built withing Metro’s wall theses days.
ws Says: but I feel we should be more accommodating of families in cities and there’s room for improvement.
JK: Yeah, like the days before Metro’s wall and before Metro forcing more density in our neighborhoods. And before the irrational anti-sprawl movement that is protecting yuppie wine country from city riff-raft.
Thanks
JK
Except that is all that is being built withing Metro’s wall theses days.
Houses get built. Plans I’ve seen on new additions to the UGB seem to all include single-family dwellings.
Aaron G Says: “Except that is all that is being built withing Metro’s wall theses days.”
Houses get built. Plans I’ve seen on new additions to the UGB seem to all include single-family dwellings.
JK: Metro wants more multi family.
And the single family that does get built costs double to triple what they would cost without Metro’s Wall. And they are on small lots. (Gottta save that farmland for growing potted plants and lawns!)
Of course the reality is that the whole wall thing is a corporate enrichment scheme to make local politically connected corporations rich at the expense of everyone else.
Thanks
JK
Jim,
If we didn’t grow the potted plants and lawns where they are now (because houses would be there instead), where would they grow them? Cleared forest land even further out? Foreign countries?
So again, when the economy is this bad and money is so hard to come by, why is every major city so eager to invest in streetcars? Is it because they’re “failures”?
Our Federal Government is batting 100!
Every thing they are doing seems to be wrong.
Everything they do is helping THE BIG BOYS, and that includes these street car programs.
Who is this really going to benefit in the long term?
THE DEVELOPERS, and the people that live along that development.
You folks have to remember, I spend my work days dealing with people that have a hard time getting to and from work, why?
Because their bus service has been cut!
Now that we have had this little discussion, I suggest you read the Trimet General Managers latest THOUGHTS!
This does not sound very encouraging to me, does it too you?
So what do you think is next to be chopped away at?
And all the while they keep expanding, street cars and light rail.
How can you expand when your broke?
And we won’t even bring up the unfunded liability problem.
That’s the point, the FEDS are funding these little street car programs and meanwhile that guts of the established transit infrastructure is rotting away. And who is gonna pay the price, again its the little guy who actually needs transit!
The Federal government has turned out to be the biggest problem that we Americans face today.
Park the car and take transit. A lot of people do it, even with kids.
So, they are renting a studio apartment and sharing it with kids, too? ROFLMFAO!
Maybe the schools are better in Vancouver.
jk: Of course the reality is that the whole wall thing is a corporate enrichment scheme to make local politically connected corporations rich at the expense of everyone else.
Oregon’s land use legislation, including the mandating of UGBs was in response to the creation of the Charbonneau development 40 years ago. Rather than a “corporate enrichment scheme” it was an attempt to protect undeveloped farmland, forests, wetlands, etc FROM developers.
Besides Governor Tom McCall, much of the support for SB 100 gave from a state senator who was also a Linn County dairy farmer.
If you have hard evidence to the contrary, please share it.