Clackamas County board of commissioners vote to place LO Streetcar “on hold” until 2012.
From The Oregonian:
The controversial, $458 million Lake Oswego to Portland streetcar project appears to be on hold to allow the project team time to respond to a series of questions and concerns from the two cities.
At the request of Lake Oswego Mayor Jack Hoffman, Clackamas County commissioners this morning postponed until early 2012 a resolution that would have offered the board’s conditional support to the streetcar recommendation. Hoffman said he spoke with Portland Mayor Sam Adams earlier this morning and the two planned to send Clackamas County and other project partners a letter in coming days.
Full story here.
33 responses to “LO Streetcar “on hold” until 2012:”
And then there is THIS to consider.
Hopefully this waiting period will allow more people to realize MAX to LO via Milwaukie is a much, much, much better option. It’ll move more people, cost much less to construct and operate, remove more commuters from 43, run faster into the heart of downtown, and enable new E-W connections within Clackamas County that aren’t possible today. I STILL haven’t heard any government officials seriously consider this.
I was at the CCBCC meeting today.
Mayor Hoffman’s announcement came as a surprise to most of the attendees, including two LO councilors. About 16 people signed up to speak on the topic including Steve S. and Terry Parker. No one spoke in support of streetcar.
I really couldn’t figure out what concerned the mayors. Hoffman’s statement was that concerns raised by Lake Oswego and Portland needed to be addressed before anyone else signed on to the LPA.
So why can LO and Portland approve the LPA conditionally but not any of the other jurisdictions?
Also, will the concerns of the other jurisdictions be addressed along with those of the two cities? Clackamas County, for instance, included West Linn’s request that the 35 be continued and even offer more frequent service as a condition for the County’s support. I couldn’t agree more, but there wasn’t any reference to the source of the extra ops funds necessary to continue the 35 in addition to streetcar.
This is one of those “stay tuned” things.
Is the preliminary engineering and Final Environmental Impact Statement underway?
Or did all of the partners have to sign off on that first?
Because if that is proceeding there isn’t anything else until final design in 2014
Making the pretense that the “project” is “on hold” a farce.
http://www.metro-region.org/index.cfm/go/by.web/id=227
Potential timeline (updated July 8, 2010)
2011
Begin preliminary engineering and Final Environmental Impact Statement
2014 Final design
2015 Begin construction
Steve,
Preliminary engineering, and the FEIS can’t get very far without the selection of the Locally Preferred Alternative. These phase are detailed analysis of what is going to be built, and have, as a prerequiste, that the what is determined.
Delay in selecting a LPA will definitely have an impact on the project soon, if not already.
[Moderator: Small apology to Steve–he posted a duplicate comment, and apparently both Bob and I tried (and succeeded) to delete one of the duplicates: Here is his comment in full–ES]
Yes I thought the same thing but you’re speculating. I wanted to know for certain.
I can see final design not proceeding but wonder if there are any sufficient means to proceed with Preliminary engineering and final FEIS.
We can presume, but,,,,,,I’d like a final answer.
Whoops…
If you’ve been looking for an example of moderator overreach, now you’ve found one:
Steve accidentally posted a duplicate comment, and in the effort to delete it, two moderators nearly-simultaneously chose to delete each separate comment, and now both are gone.
Fortunately, I had a browser window open on that page and have retrieved what Steve wrote:
I say we permit both moderator reposts to stand as a monument, of sorts.
As all three of your hosts are SW professional, we ought to know about race conditions. :)
Ahh, now Steve’s duplicate is forever preserved as a moderator-resurrected double zombie duplicate. :-) Party on.
Party on, Garth.
And now I have evidence of your conspiring to supress my speech :)
But what is the answer to the question?
Has preliminary engineering and final EIS been halted or not?
Is there any work continuing?
What specificlly has been halted?
Preliminary engineering has never been funded or started.
About $450K of additional engineering is going to be done to refine the cost estimates and other “threshold” issues before continuing the LPA approval process. Portland and LO will split those costs.
Preliminary engineering is sort of proceeding?
“Hoffman said the project team and its engineers will in this “pre-preliminary engineering” phase look at reducing the project from two tracks, as currently planned, to one track. It’s unclear how that would affect the streetcar’s projected ridership and travel times.”
The work is expected to begin July 1 and will cost $470,000, Obletz said. Lake Oswego and Portland are expected to split the cost, though there is the possibility Metro could contribute some money, he said.
This is probably just a little too cynical, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Clackamas County’s inclusion of the requirement to keep and improve through bus service on the 35 is perceived as a poison pill for streetcar. It says loudly and clearly that “you can have streetcar but we need to keep bus.” What’s a TriMet to do?
Preliminary engineering is sort of proceeding?
“Hoffman said the project team and its engineers will in this “pre-preliminary engineering” phase look at reducing the project from two tracks, as currently planned, to one track. It’s unclear how that would affect the streetcar’s projected ridership and travel times.”
The work is expected to begin July 1 and will cost $470,000, Obletz said. Lake Oswego and Portland are expected to split the cost, though there is the possibility Metro could contribute some money, he said.
Len said it well,
“They’re going to have to spend six to eight months putting lipstick on this pig,” Bergstein said. “This is a project that just isn’t ready for prime time. I think everybody realized it.”
can we kick them down the pipe and get some streetcars elsewhere in the mean time?
just askin’
I was disappointed to see that testimony would be limited to one minute/What’s the point in taking time to listen to people you’ve already decided to vote against?
~~~>Man am I surprised by your surprise!
How many years have you been involved with these processes? And you actually thought that any of these officials actually CARED what you or any other member of the public thinks?
Damn Chris, I’m very disappointed in you!
“Ask not what the government can do for you. Ask why it doesn’t.”
I don’t understand how a private railroad can retrack for about $1 million per mile. And yet…
How elaborate do we have to be here? I keep suggesting that a streetcar station at the west end of the Sellwood bridge would make sense, and that is where the SC’s could pass each other. Singletrack the rest of the line. A station, with some other improvements on the west end, would help stabilize the supposedly slipping embankment. Also, it is amazing what a few pilings can do. I have observed that area, after viewing Ted Wheeler’s video, and have yet to see what they are worried about. It isn’t like I haven’t seen landslides around here; there were quite a few in the region after the ’96 flood. What I did see were two supporting columns that were not quite plumb with each other, which could have been due to the original builders simply not getting them perfect, which has happened quite a lot, especially in the days before digital survey instruments.
realize MAX to LO via Milwaukie is a much, much, much better option. It’ll move more people, cost much less to construct
How so? Building yet another bridge will cost what, $200, $250 million – plus the existing UP right-of-way between Milwaukie and the existing bridge has numerous smaller trestles, many with very limited clearances underneath that’ll likely require rebuilding (read: rebuilding numerous local streets). Sharing the UP track is not an option so now you’re looking at 100% new grade.
Congratulations, you’ve just hit $400 or so million just between L.O. and Milwaukie. And there’s little to no possibility of any redevelopment, and little to no promise of ridership. What’s the justification?
And there’s little to no possibility of any redevelopment,
Why is redevelopment a consideration?
Even Charlie Hales said light rail didn’t cause ANY development along the Eastside line:
http://www.portlandfacts.com/vid/PortlandCouncil_10-23-96-communityPlan-Hales(256k).wmv
They had to give tax breaks to get development to happen.
Thanks
JK
Erik H. Says: “How so? Building yet another bridge will cost what, $200, $250 million…”
No, the new Milwaukie MAX bridge costs $134 million, and that’s over 1700′ long with twin towers over 200′ high, double tracked with very generous bike lanes AND pedestrian walkways on both sides, and requires costly in-river construction. A new bridge for the Milwaukie-LO spur would be only 500′ long (the river is at its narrowest at that point), single tracked and a single bike/pedestrian walkway on the side away from the existing freight bridge, and would have NO piers in the water. A simple deck truss or segmented concrete span would be far easier to build than the cable-stay and since the total area (length x width) is less than 1/6 of the larger bridge, I can’t see this costing more than $25-30 million.
Erik H. Says: “… – plus the existing UP right-of-way between Milwaukie and the existing bridge has numerous smaller trestles, many with very limited clearances underneath that’ll likely require rebuilding (read: rebuilding numerous local streets). …”
No, because the new light rail track would be built higher than the UP trestles at Sparrow St, 20th Ave and Laurie Ave to sufficiently clear those cross streets. And the remaining cross streets in the Island Station neighborhood are all at grade. No local streets will need to be rebuilt.
Erik H. Says: “Congratulations, you’ve just hit $400 or so million just between L.O. and Milwaukie. And there’s little to no possibility of any redevelopment, and little to no promise of ridership. What’s the justification?”
Wrong on both counts. The cost estimate for the Milwaukie-LO spur was $212 million…. far less than the deceptively-named “rapid” streetcar. And the entire downtown and Foothills area of Lake Oswego would be the redevelopment area. Frankly, a MAX station in Lake Oswego would be a far greater catalyst for development than a streetcar station. THAT is the justification.
Frankly, a MAX station in Lake Oswego would be a far greater catalyst for development than a streetcar station. THAT is the justification.
Or, they could just widen the highway, then everyone would benefit.
And they wouldn’t have to spend additional millions to make development happen after they build rail. That is if development is really a public good worthy of taking money from schools, social services, police and fire.
Thanks
JK
Four advantages to extending MLR to LO relative to streetcar:
1. It would be a Willamette River crossing strategically located between Sellwood and West Linn saving at least some people significant time even outside of commute hours.
2. It would provide faster and more convenient service to downtown Portland.
3. We would get to keep the 35 which would remain more convenient for most riders and be faster than light rail outside of commute hours.
4. Metro’s HCT plan includes a Milwaukie-LO connection as part of a Clackamas to Washington County service. In other words, we’re going to do it anyway. If we did it first we wouldn’t consider spending any money extending streetcar south of the Sellwood Bridge.
Or, they could just widen the highway, then everyone would benefit.
Widening Hwy 43 through Dunthorpe…. considering the terrain and, of course, the fact that it’s Dunthorpe… I don’t think anyone should be holding their breath.
For the record, as I’ve stated previously on this blog, I’m not sold on the streetcar as a solution to LO-PDX traffic woes and wouldn’t mind it being “on hold” permanently. As for alternate solutions, R A Fontes’ list of advantanges for extending MRL to LO definitely has merit, especially where retaining the 35 bus is concerned. Speaking of buses… if traffic on 43 continues to be a concern (and, as I pointed out above, widening it falls outside the realm of reality), a supplemental bus line could connect LO and PDX via Terwilliger to Barbur (traffic on Terwilliger does tend to bottleneck between Taylors Ferry and Barbur but otherwise this could be a straight shot).
Please don’t allow JK to steer this away from a discussion about transit. This is not (generally) a highway-widening blog. Stick to the topic. This is also not the place to rehash the tired old debate about UR funding and TIF funding “taking” money from schools.
JK, take a break, you don’t get to dominate the discussion in every single thread. Your own web site doesn’t even allow comments at all.
Thank you RAF. I’m not the only one who sees the many advantages of light rail from Milwaukie to LO. I think the most intriguing aspect of this is the new E-W connections that will be possible with the new bridge. It’ll even relieve some of the traffic on the Sellwood if more Clackamas County residents take transit because it’s faster. A rapid or express bus from Clackamas to Milwaukie to LO to Tigard would be very popular.
Oh yeah, and thanks JK. Widening 43 through Dunthorpe? LMFAO!!! Funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time.
Yaa, lets not get things going, when the jobs are needed. That makes to much sense.
Or maybe use the hundreds of millions of dollars for a decent bus line, more pedestrian improvements, and better bike improvements instead?
Crazy thought.
Won’t happen, it’s rail or nothing, and I am miffed as to why they even study alternative options when we all know the only option is going to rail.
Remember the constraints — we have a “use or it lose it” rail-only easement. I don’t much like the streetcar plan they came up with for reasons I’ve discussed elsewhere, I think they’re spending WAY too much for what we would get out of it, and I certainly see that building it may be premature right now.
But Tri-Met certainly could bag the whole streetcar idea right now and just try to find operating money to run the Macadam bus more frequently. Meanwhile, the City of Portland could finish the multi-use path from South Waterfront to the Sellwood Bridge for a fairly small fraction of what the streetcar would cost.
100% agree on the idea of connecting LO to MAX via Milwaukie, and again, for all the reasons others have stated above. Another benefit it would have is that bus connections between the two sides of the river would become that much easier. Could also be a chance to realign the LO transit center to something alone State St/Hwy 43 instead of the current time-wasting detour to Safeway. It makes so much sense I don’t get why its not even on the table…
It makes so much sense I don’t get why its not even on the table…
This has been covered on this blog before.
It was analyzed during the alternatives analysis phase at the request of Metro. It was determined that it served a different set of trips than the Willamette Shoreline corridor did.
Not unworthy, but not a substitute.
There were a few reasons, real and trumped up, that would help to explain the earlier rejection of a MLR extension to LO.
One very big real reason is that all the local contribution to the project would have to be actual dollars while the streetcar extension would be able to use the appraised value of the existing WSL ROW as the big part and possibly all of its contribution.
The project analysts ended up declaring that the MLR-LO extension would require three MAX stations in the one mile between Lake Road (about 1/4 mile apart) and the bridge. MAX stations on Burnside and Interstate are about 1/2 mile apart and only about 1/3 of a mile in downtown Hillsboro. A potential LO MAX extension would be going along the edge of the Willamette in a low-to-moderate density, mostly hilly, area without any arterials. It’s not exactly prime real estate for some of the highest station densities on the MAX system. Does anyone really believe that TriMet would go for more than one additional station at most?
The “pre-analysis” also assumed that MAX would turn south in LO and terminate at the same location (Albertsons) as the streetcar option. The logical thing for MAX to do would be to continue west towards Lake Grove/Tigard/Tualatin which is exactly what the HCT plan would do.
The effect of including the extra stations and the Albertsons detour is to increase both the costs for the project and the expected trip times between LO and Portland. Even then, the ballpark figure from the “pre-analysis” was the $212 million reported by Aaron earlier (compared to the roughly $450 million we’re now looking at for the streetcar extension) — and that’s on its own ROW and bridge.
The only “need” that wouldn’t be served by a MLR-LO link is Johns Landing development. Johns Landing to SOWA/Portland transit would be extremely easy to serve with existing and planned bus lines even with heavy redevelopment. Regardless, it could still have its streetcar extension for just a small part of the proposed streetcar capital expenditure leaving more than enough to pay for the MLR-LO link AND to upgrade WSL ROW easements for the right to convert it to a world class trail at rock bottom cost.
We are really missing the boat on this one.
Chris Smith Says: “This has been covered on this blog before. It was analyzed during the alternatives analysis phase at the request of Metro. It was determined that it served a different set of trips than the Willamette Shoreline corridor did.”
That’s kinda the point, the Milwaukie-LO option provides far better system connectivity with many more trip possibilities. It doesn’t serve John’s Landing, but it does connect LO directly to South Waterfront, SE Portland, Milwaukie, PSU and Downtown Portland, and does so faster and with more capacity.
Like RAF said, the streetcar can easily be extended from SoWa to John’s Landing and probably will be regardless. The value of the WSL ROW segment from LO to the freight bridge can be used as a match towards the MAX extension and the value of the ROW from SoWa to the Sellwood Bridge can be used towards the streetcar. Turn the rest into a trail or sell it to the adjoining Dunthorpe property owners for a hefty profit (if they want it so bad, let them pay for it).