Lake Oswego City Council meeting to decide on LO Transit project.
The Lake Oswego City Council has voted 4-3 to move the LO Transit project forward with conditions. Yea votes were Mayor Hoffman, Council President Tierney, Councilor Jordan, and Councilor Moncrieff. Nay votes were Councilors Kehoe, Gudman, and Olsen. Also approved was a resolution to have an advisory vote on the ballot by May 2012.
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Tonight, at 6PM, the Lake Oswego City Council will meet to consider (among other business) the Lake Oswego Transit project. Agenda here, full meeting packet here, recorded citizen comments here, here, here, and here.
The proceedings can be watched online here.
76 responses to “UPDATE: LO City council conditionally approves LO Transit project”
Gee whiz, I just wonder what the vote will be??
N-O-T !
It actually might be a close vote, Al–a few LO council members are known to oppose the project; and last week’s flyer may well have backfired.
The City of Portland’s vote tomorrow is probably a formality–but the LO vote this evening does not appear to be done deal.
Two questions:
Can anyone point to evidence that this project does a good job thinking about the big picture transportation solution for the 43 corridor all the way to Oregon City? To me that seems like a huge issue that hasn’t been discussed enough.
Do West Linn or Oregon City get to vote on this project? It impacts their residents too, if perhaps not as much.
To answer the questions:
For OC-Portland service, the long-range solution to that is an extension of either the Green Line, or an extension of Milwaukie MAX. Both projects are far off into the distance, however. Neither the Regional Transportation Plan nor the Metro HCT (High Capacity Transit) consider anything for the Oregon City/LO corridor other than local bus.
The city of West Linn, though, has expressed an interest in a possible extension of the LO Streetcar to its shores (as well as expressing complaints about its transit riders being forced to transfer from the 35 to the streetcar if the thing is built). Marylhurst College is one important destination for such a thing to serve. Where such a line would GO, however, I have no idea–there’s no existing rail corridor south of LO, OR43 is to narrow in many spots to accommodate rail (or much of anything else, including more cars). One other possibility might be to expand a streetcar line out to McVeigh and Stafford Road, to serve greenfield opportunities there–but again, that sort of thing are a long way off, if they’ve been considered at all.
There has been discussion (for years) of upgrading the 35 to frequent service–possibly including what’s left of it south of LO if the streetcar is built. There’s also been talk of combining the (truncated) 35 and the 78–a one-seat ride between OC and Tigard/Beaverton would be useful.
But to answer your second question, no–only the cities of Portland and Lake Oswego are participants in the project.
Meeting, so far, is highly contentious with at least one recess to let the crowd cool off. Still going as of 7:30. The Oregonian‘s Everton Baily Jr. is tweeting the goings-on, for those not watching on TV (or watching the Blazers instead…)
There have been calls to either postpone the vote for further study, or to refer it to Lake Oswego voters. If nothing else, tonight’s meeting is not a rubber-stamp…
Should be Everton Bailey Jr….
Motion to refer to voters fails 4-3.
Motions to have an advisory (non-binding) vote from the citizens passes 7-0; after a vote to make it binding fails 4-3.
Councilor Mary Olsen, a critic of the project, just gave an impassioned speech against.
Councilor Gudman also skeptical of “rapid streetcar”, questions deployment of streetcar technology in rapid transit role.
(It works fine in such roles with a suitable ROW; unfortunately for THIS project, it appears that isn’t going to get a suitable ROW for rapid transit).
Skeptical that redevelopment potential in LO is worth the money.
Gudman now objecting to regional density projections for city, noting that many of these neighborhoods are already built out with single-family homes. States that population increases assumed by project team simply will not happen, thus no need for capacity provided by Streetcar or sufficient ridership to justify line.
Sally Moncrief, a supporter of the line, now speaking–pointing out environmental advantages of electric-powered transit over SOVs.
Councilor Olsen: “Its not about transit, its about development”.
Councilor Kehoe now giving his final speech against. Of councilmembers who have said final remarks, it’s 3-1 against so far, but remaining councilors are likely supporters.
Kehoe opposes any potential changes in the character of Lake Oswego.
Councilor Jordan in support.
A bit of sparks flying between Councilor Jordan and Olsen. With Jordan, tally is now 3 nay, 2 yea. Olsen reading a letter opposing the project into record.
Letter from Audubon Society, that is. Council President Tierney cuts off Olsen, now giving his speech. Engaging in a bit of Lake-Oswegan-exceptionalism. :)
Tierney: Important for LO’s future to attract millenials, and millenials
…millenials love transit, walkable neighborhoods, etc.
Tierney remains skeptical, but willing to vote for conditional approval–the motion on the table.
Now 3-3. Mayor Hoffman speaking.
Mayor: City should focus on development, not transit, and judge project on those terms. Also need to push back on Portland and Metro on project scope and design.
Mayor Hoffman done, vote about to be taken. Kehoe asks question as to whether Hoffman should recuse himself due to his partnership in a law firm representing developers.
Roll called:
4-3 passed.
Two of the passes are strong yeas, two (Hoffman and Kierney) are skeptical. All three noes are strong noes.
I’m not sure how skeptical the mayor was.
In his final remarks, he called for focusing on streetcar, specifically saying that we wouldn’t have to consider (“enhanced bus” and) no-build anymore. Streetcar can’t be considered in a vacuum, but will continue to need evaluation in terms of what the world would be like without it—i.e. no-build.
Once again, there was almost no discussion of how the project would affect current riders. There really is great reluctance among supporters to even acknowledge the possibility that it means degraded service. It’s so easy to marginalize riders, particularly in Lake Oswego where we’re such a small proportion of the population.
The council also approved a statistically valid survey of residents which would be conducted in the relatively near future. That survey might have an even more significant impact than the vote which could occur more than a year from now.
Was there anything of note mentioned about alignment choices, travel time and cost inherent in them?
Aaron,
The vote was to accept the LPA as written without much discussion of alignment choices. The majority repeated many times the idea that the vote was for more study so that everyone would have better information.
The Oregonian’s reporter was giving meeting updates, too:
http://twitter.com/LakeO_Reporter
From the horse’s mouth.
This has zero to with mobility and everything to do with development. Well, it is at least about slow mobility. Good to know Portland will be continuing that saga into the near future at a high expense.
The snake oil salesmen haven’t finished the Pearl and SoWA and are way behind on their commitment to affordable housing units in both areas last I recall.
Just for note, the streetcar has been billed as a congestion relief for 43. This is the worst thing a politician can promise, and is going to look bad at the transit community as a whole, unfortunately for us.
If I were a concerned citizen, I would ask the council people who voted two things:
A) Do you promise this will reduce or stop congestion on 43?
B) This will not reduce current service for riders?
Make them answer a simple “yes” or “no”.
WS,
You are correct in that selling transit as a cure for congestion is frequently a bad idea (though it’s frequently necessary when dealing with a population whose only use for transit is the hope that it gets the other guy off the road). Transit (well, good transit anyways) experiences induced demand just like widened highways do, so frequently the congestion problem on the roads doesn’t go away–the additional capacity on both modes is used. Were the line to be built and become popular, it probably wouldn’t remove congestion on OR43, any more so than MAX has eliminated congestion on I-5, I-84, and US26.
OTOH, it probably will reduce it vs no-build–were westside MAX not around, many of those trips would be on the Sunset instead–some in cars, some in busses. And some trips made reasonable by MAX wouldn’t be taken at all if the roads were the only option. But such claims are hard to verify or falsify–we can’t both build and not build the thing, and see which way is better. :)
I remain skeptical, although open-minded, about the project. One thing that the mayor did say is that Lake Oswego ought to influence the design more. Were I the mayor of Lake Oswego, I’d pick up the phone to Sam Adams, and tell him in no uncertain terms that if the line doesn’t get moved off of Macadam, my yea turns to a nay, and Lake Oswego withdraws its support for the project. LO ought to make clear that if it is going to pay for an intercity transit project, one billed as “rapid” transit, then it expects the project to have, as much as possible, an exclusive ROW–and not run in mixed traffic on the very street whose anticipated future congestion is being cited as justification for why the project needs to be built in the first place. (And longer term–consider the possibility of modifying the MLR flyover ramp between Lincoln Street and the SoWa MAX station so that streetcars from LO can go to the transit mall).
Ron–with regard to current riders, I suspect that you are right about one thing–they aren’t a major factor in the LO City Council’s deliberations. I don’t know the personalities on the council at all, but I suspect that at least some of the opposition to the project is from those who don’t care about transit altogether, as opposed to those who consider this a bad project but would support a “good” one. (And there was quite a bit of blunt opposition to some of Metro’s land use goals–though given the price of existing Lake Oswego real estate, the opportunities for infill are probably few and far between). And most of the affected bus riders probably are coming from West Linn or Oregon City, and thus not of great concern to Lake Oswego city government.
nevermind that LO once had for many decades an electric rapid streetcar on this very line and has a tourist trolley currently operating on this very line. so I call BS on this changing the character of LO and the skepticism of rapid streetcar. this isn’t introducing anything new or radical to LO.
coupling the 35 with the 78 solves most of the complaints about degraded service for south of LO. now they have direct service to Portland and have to transfer to go to Beaverton, in the future they’ll have direct service to Beaverton and have to transfer to go to Portland. its a wash.
absolutely nothing reduces congestion other than a disaster where everyone abandons an area, fukushima has no congestion now. “congestion relief” is a poor outdated metric for transportation projects anyway. transportation needs new metrics for evaluating their merits.
i’d just like to see a cheaper streetcar project on this alignment. i cant comprehend how it can cost this much with or without the right of way value included. why can’t we build streetcar lines the really cheap and simple way like 100 years ago… cheap wooden tie track, cheap wooden pole overhead, cheap stops, just look at old pictures or video of pre-WWII streetcars… they are so simple. stop overdesigning and overbuilding everything. this is a single track 5 mile long line on an existing RoW, i dont see how this should cost more than $100 million.
hear, hear scotty on demanding the line stay rapid and stay off Macadam.
SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE!
The whole charade is an insult to the public, pretending it’s a close vote, it makes me sick it’s so obvious what’s going on here.
Politics here is the same as politics at the national level, based on lies and deception:
http://youtu.be/fTahZE4q90U
I know his name is the title, but… you do realize that’s the infowars guy?
YUP!
jon Says: “…coupling the 35 with the 78 solves most of the complaints about degraded service for south of LO. now they have direct service to Portland and have to transfer to go to Beaverton, in the future they’ll have direct service to Beaverton and have to transfer to go to Portland. its a wash.”
No, it’s not a wash. It’s a major downgrade in service. There are a lot more people going from WL into downtown than from WL to Beaverton. Not only will the transfer add ~15 minutes to their commute each way, but the streetcar has slower travel times than the 35 from LO and will deliver them 4-5 blocks further away from the major office core along 5th and 6th. If you have to eliminate half of the 35 line to make the ridership numbers work for streetcar, then WL residents should absolutely have a say in whether this gets built. They’re the most adversely affected by this.
Streetcar, as proposed, has no chance of reducing congestion compared to no-build. The project team admitted that the associated park-n-rides will add congestion, the required move of the transit center to Albertsons will take with it all the kiss-n-rides and 37/78 buses which now stay well away from Hwy 43, and those of us current riders who will be forced to use transit less will all add to Hwy 43 congestion. This doesn’t begin to count any traffic growth from Foothills development which would be the biggest congestion generator by far. All together, it would be reasonable to expect traffic volumes similar to Canyon Road in Beaverton or even 99W in Tigard.
While the number of 35/36 riders from Oregon City and West Linn is a large proportion of the total, the number from Lake Oswego is larger according to TriMet’s passenger census.
The 78, with its indirect routing, often takes longer between LO and Beaverton than the 35/blue or red through Portland. The people who would benefit most by 78 through service to Oregon City are probably PCC Sylvania passengers who seem to make up the bulk of transferees between the two lines.
The Oregonian‘s coverage is here.
Al, the three no votes seem to be “hell no” votes–none of Kehoe, Olson, or Gudman seemed to have anything nice to say about the project, nor seem likely to flip their votes to yeas were it necessary. The LO City Council members are all elected on an at-large basis, so there’s no need for the charade (common in Congress) of arranging votes in the backroom to ensure a controversial measure passes while permitting certain members to cast a no vote if doing otherwise would cause trouble in their districts and endanger their careers.
City of Portland consideratin of the project starts at 9:30 this meeting. Contrary to rumor, the Streetcar vote is not on the consent agenda. :)
@RA:
Park and rides?…For the LO streetcar?
That’s absurd if that’s true. The whole point of the streetcar is to walk to the station — not drive. It’s supposed to be run in a dense environment.
It’s not the MAX where the lines are limited and carrying way more people.
@ES
If they keep the alignment off Macadam that will be a big step. Otherwise they are essentially lying to the public. Point out congestion and then have the streetcars run in the same congestion.
Or they’re under the premise again that any transit project (or highway project) is going to seriously lessen congestion.
Instead of investing in expensive streetcars, an actual proven method to reduce congestion is to build walkable neighborhoods. As an aside, I think everyone should look at N. Denver Ave.
http://www.pdc.us/ura/interstate/kenton.asp
It cost $2.85 million for a streetscape renovation (looks great btw) and should hopefully spur some reinvestment and infill development.
Maybe we can get off this streetcar fix by asking ourselves what we’d rather have? Streetcars or better streets with widened sidewalks, street trees, benches, swales, green space, etc. or an expensive streetcar that is not faster than a bus?
Imo, the development potential induced by enhancing the streetscape is far more greater than the streetcar.
The streetcar is ephemeral. It is a fad.
Attractive streetscapes is a much better component in quality urbanism.
I wouldn’t say Streetcar is a fad, it clearly has its place in dense walkable neighborhoods. But Lake Oswego is not the right place. Even with Foothills fully developed, you’re still riding through a 3+ mile long no-man’s land to get to John’s Landing and SoWa.
Someone recently made the suggestion to the “O” that the vintage streetcars could be run on the LO line. There are 3 or 4 of these, currently in storage, so why couldn’t they begin running in the near future to see whether LO riders will take them?
I suppose a connection would need to be made with the SoWa tracks, but why not try it?
Maybe streetcars are a fad, maybe not. I see far more of a future with electronic buses. With streetcars, there’s just too much infrastructure needed.
Regardless if there’s a fad or not, this streetcar line needs to be rapid which will involve moving it off of Macadam.
ws,
Yes, the DEIS includes a 300 space PnR structure at Abertsons and a 100 space surface lot at the foot of B Avenue. You know, the thinking seems to be that if they’re going to eliminate through bus service, they have to do something to attract folks from West Linn and South Shore/Lakegrove. The PnR’s are not super popular with Lake Oswegans so there might be some push-back.
If eastside loop pays off in relatively short order, then maybe the LO extension will be seen as an unfortunate mistake that doesn’t taint the whole streetcar concept. If not, the bloom might come off the streetcar rose permanently.
The City of Portland has now approved continuation of the project, also with conditions.
“The City of Portland has now approved continuation of the project, also with conditions.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_1Pw1xm9U
There are 3 or 4 of these, currently in storage, so why couldn’t they begin running in the near future to see whether LO riders will take them?
In fact this was all but a done deal just a year or two ago. When the Vintage Trolleys were booted off of their long-established route from Lloyd Center to the 11th Avenue turnaround on the MAX line, TriMet had “donated” the four Vintage Trolleys to be run on the WST route from South Waterfront to Lake Oswego. In fact, TriMet even found some $600,000 to repair one of the trestles that needed to be repaired before the Vintage Trolleys (which would be modified to be powered by a towed generator, just as the current Broadway car is operated) would run.
Apparently that arrangement was called off; TriMet (rightfully) slashed funding for the Vintage Trolley on the Mall alignment to just a handful of weekends a year (given that the Vintage Trolley operates with a 0% cost recovery at the farebox); the Broadway car has been in need of major repairs and hasn’t run since last June; and regional taxpayers are out $600,000+ for the repairs of a bridge that’ll have to be demolished and rebuilt for a Streetcar line.
But, there’s always a bus line to cut to pay for these foolish expenditures. Just like we’re now out $6 million for the cost of the Streetcar alignment from Moody to Gibbs that is being completely ripped up just five years after it was built and opened. $6.6 million that we will have nothing to show for would have paid for a lot of bus hours…or 15 brand new buses (without federal match which is typically 90%, so with the federal match the $6.6M in local funds would have actually purchased 170 brand new buses, which would have had a direct positive impact in lowering operating costs (better reliability/lower maintenance costs/lower driver overtime, lower fuel expense) systemwide.
Eric,
The streetcar line to SoWa has been heavily utilized, especially during work hours by OHSU employees. While I agree that it seems silly to rip up tracks after 6 years, your comments make it sound like they planned to build it, let it sit idle for 6 years, and then rip it up. This has to do with the recent TIGER grant for SW Moody. If we hadn’t received that federal money, the tracks would remain for many years.
At the time we originally built the tracks next to Moody, the design for Moody and the street grid in that part of SoWa was unknown, so we built the cheapest possible (ties on gravel) single-track that we could, knowing we would likely have to move it.
The alternative was to not offer service to SoWa.
Erik H. Would you like to be interviewed by Vancouver anti-CRC business person David Madore? He asked me for ridership data on Tri Mets MAX lines, i.e where the justification for the capital expense comes in. You seem to have the best factual handle on where TriMets money is coming from and going to, although I do have access to their general monthly ridership figures. David M. has been interviewing others, although it doesn’t look like he gets a lot of traffic at: http://www.Couv.com
If you are agreeable, send him an email at davidm@usdigital.com
I’m concluding the line is worthy in some arrangement and possibly in phases. If streetcar lines were to also reach Sellwood across the new bridge, that might be a viable 1st Phase to 17th and ultimately a Milwaukie MAX station terminus.
Milmaukie MAX will extend to Oregon City and probably meet the Green Line somewhere. There are ‘3’ options for Lake Oswego to tie-in to MAX: The Sellwood Bridge Streetcar.
The new MAX/Streetcar bridge in Sowa.
And “The Forgotten Bridge” where a single DMU could do a half-hour shuttle to Milwaukie.
Anyway, definitely keep Lo at the table.
A Nielsen/Nygaard study report came out Wednesday opposing Seattle’s stupid bored tunnel plan. It’s a good read. Major scandal going on up there. Wsdot botched it big time.
Streetcars are a great thing…. for connecting densely-developed neighborhoods. As a “rapid” solution to Macadam’s traffic issues? Not so much.
The DMU across the “Forgotten Bridge” would be a much cheaper/faster alternative for LO commuters (although it still wouldn’t benefit West Linn folks that much…. too bad the “enhanced bus” alternative seems to be off the table because that might have been the best alternative for the corridor in question).
Anything that adds an extra transfer compared to the current single seat service from OCTC/WL/LOTC to the Pioneer Courthouse won’t cut it. A Milwaukie Max extension would eliminate the transfer in Milwaukie and have the advantages of faster running times and the Portland Mall alignment compared with a streetcar extension.
BTW, did anybody mention that the HCT plan includes a Milwaukie-Lake Oswego link? In other words, we’re going to do it anyway.
This has to do with the recent TIGER grant for SW Moody. If we hadn’t received that federal money, the tracks would remain for many years.
So it’s justifiable to have blown $6 million in investment all because of federal funding that COULD have been used to…oh…replace 21 year old buses, part of the oldest transit fleet of any major transit agency?
your comments make it sound like they planned to build it, let it sit idle for 6 years, and then rip it up
I’ve heard that this is exactly the plan for the MAX station at the Airport and for the Streetcar tracks on 4th Avenue and Montgomery Street – even though the tracks are built to permanent standard.
we built the cheapest possible (ties on gravel) single-track…The alternative was to not offer service to SoWa.
So, again, it’s acceptable to blow $6 million dollars? That could have funded 170 new buses and had an immediate, positive impact on reducing overall operating expense? Instead we blew the $6 million with nothing to show for it, SoWa has been a disappointment, and our region’s bus service is deplorable. All for the bargain basement price of $6 million (and counting, thanks to the increasing cost of bus service due to having low fuel efficiency, low reliability, and overtime pay for Operators to sit in disabled buses.)
I’d vote for “not building Streetcar to SoWa”. There was once a time I loved light rail/Streetcar but now that I see first hand on a daily basis the negative impacts, it’s time we fix what’s broke before we fix what’s non-existent.
The DMU across the “Forgotten Bridge” would be a much cheaper/faster alternative for LO commuters
In theory, yes. But our experience with WES proves otherwise. I’m all for cost-effective diesel railbus/DMU operations but I will never trust TriMet to be able to operate it cost-effectively. And unfortunately Portland & Western is milking the public out of a lot of money as well (given their huge windfalls out of ConnectOregon I/II/III) so unless there’s a new player involved…
I’m posting this while watching one of Al’s videos. I thought of a post a while back on the subject, so I’ll post it now.
As with every other rail-based transit decision, the answer/mantra is “we have to do this!”
But what else could we do with the corridor and/or resources?
“We have to do this!”
Where will the money come from?
“We have to do this!” Followed by: “it has to come from future payroll tax revenues!” (translation: cut bus service everywhere else in the region to build one rail line that partially replaces the 35-Macadam.)
Why aren’t the other alternatives doable?
“We have to do this! There’s no reason to question anything and we must move quickly!”
Who is “we?” What are their proper names? Why must we do “this?” And is the real reason nothing to do with operating quality, usable public transit revenue service?
(no answer)
I’ve heard that this is exactly the plan for the MAX station at the Airport and for the Streetcar tracks on 4th Avenue and Montgomery Street – even though the tracks are built to permanent standard.
They’re built to a “permanent” standard because nobody knows for sure when they’ll be relocated. Airport MAX has been open nearly 10 years now, the current arrangement is getting plenty of good use. Any big changes there would likely come with a Concourse A expansion, and the Port of Portland isn’t likely to jumpstart that project soon.
The streetcar tracks on and near 4th that would be affected are less than about 500ft of single-track, some of which runs contra-flow on 4th. If and when that block is redeveloped, plans are ready for a double-track alignment that avoids 4th and runs diagonally to meet the track on 5th and through the PSU urban center.
Planning for that future does not mean that the current 500ft section was a wasted investment.
Erik H. Says: “….So, again, it’s acceptable to blow $6 million dollars? That could have funded 170 new buses and had an immediate, positive impact on reducing overall operating expense?…”
Really? 6 million dollars funds 170 new buses?
dan w Says: “Streetcars are a great thing…. for connecting densely-developed neighborhoods. As a “rapid” solution to Macadam’s traffic issues? Not so much. The DMU across the “Forgotten Bridge” would be a much cheaper/faster alternative for LO commuters….”
Yes, faster than the “rapid” streetcar, even with the transfer to light rail in Milwaukie. Plus since it’s only a quick 2-mile jog from LO to Milwaukie (with no stops in between), the DMU’s could be timed to meet EVERY MAX train inbound and outbound for no-wait transfers.
This would not be another WES, as some people claim. It would be an all-day frequent shuttle that matches and coordinates with the schedule of Milwaukie MAX. The only capital costs would be a couple of DMUs, a new LO station, new signaling and upgrading the existing tracks. I’d be shocked if it was more than 10-15 million total.
R A Fontes Says: “Anything that adds an extra transfer compared to the current single seat service from OCTC/WL/LOTC to the Pioneer Courthouse won’t cut it. A Milwaukie Max extension would eliminate the transfer in Milwaukie and have the advantages of faster running times and the Portland Mall alignment compared with a streetcar extension. BTW, did anybody mention that the HCT plan includes a Milwaukie-Lake Oswego link? In other words, we’re going to do it anyway.”
Yes, agreed 100%, forcing transfers from the 35 and 36 buses is unacceptable. It SEVERELY downgrades service for thousands of existing passengers and actually discourages future potential ridership. I don’t live in WL anymore, but when I did, I rode the 35 into downtown a lot. If I had to transfer in LO, I likely would never have taken the bus. And yes, there is a future light rail link in the HCT plan from Milwaukie to LO as part of a longer corridor from Clackamas TC to Beaverton. That’s a link that should be built first (before a LO streetcar). Until that happens, the DMU option is a better interim solution at a fraction of the price.
Ultimately Erik H. is correct in his assessment that laying the tracks down and ripping them up and laying them down again is wasteful.
In a city touted as “well planned”, it doesn’t take a genius to conclude that this is atrocious planning.
Again, this wreaks of a development ploy. Obviously SoWA needed to look shiny and cool as it was getting built out, and it needed the streetcar RIGHT away, apparently.
All proving that the streetcar is not about mobility, as a bus line would have sufficed.
If it takes a streetcar to build out urbanism, we are doomed to fail at building quality urbanism in Portland. Urbanism is more than streetcars and condos.
I have not read too much about streetcars in Jane Jacobs’ work ever.
WS,
Portland Streetcar is pretty open that its projects are about placemaking, not mobility–ignoring the LO project, nobody pretends that the Streetcar is rapid transit, or indeed rapid anything.
At any rate, the same arguments about the streetcar line could be made about the streets themselves–did the City of Portland “waste” money in building a street to the area that would later be rebuilt? Is there a proposed minimum time that a given public work should be required to stand before being replaced or modified (other than maintenance), so as not to waste money?
This is FTMP City of Portland dollars we are talking about, not anything from TriMet’s operating budget. If you think that the city of Portland ought to have used the money to bail out TriMet in some fashion (such as purchasing additional bus service within the city limits, or within the boundaries of a LID), much as it bailed out Portland Public Schools a few years back, by all means, suggest that.
My issue regarding placemaking is that the streetcar’s role in this is about next to last in my eyes. Hell, even in books I have read or own discussing placemaking, streetcars are absent from such discussion.
So many cities have and are doing fine without streetcars in regards to sense of place.
This falls right into my point about streetscapes. As far as placemaking; wider sidewalks, bike lanes, parks, street trees, etc. are going to do a far better job of placemaking than a streetcar. If the goal is development and placemaking, we need to stress these more.
The streetcar is a VERY expensive placemaking tool — especially considering it’s only running at certain times of the day (vs. a nice wide sidewalk which is 24 hrs a day).
I do not get your comparison to streets. Did the city of Portland build a street, then rip it up and move it a few feet then rebuild it after 6 years?
What’s not to get about the waste involved with moving tracks after 6 years?
You’re brining up irrelevant topics and not addressing the issue that’s being made.
Given that the extensions from Riverplace to Gibbs and then to Lowell (the “South Waterfront” extensions) were funded in part by LIDs and TIF (paid by the property owners in the nearby district) to the tune of $10.6 million, it is fair to say that the people who live in that “shiny and cool” area are paying a fair potion of the “waste”.
The streetcar is a VERY expensive placemaking tool — especially considering it’s only running at certain times of the day (vs. a nice wide sidewalk which is 24 hrs a day).
5:30AM to 11:30PM ain’t bad.
The streetcar has a very interesting ridership pattern… It is meant to function as a circulator and does so. From South Waterfront it does have a more traditional dual AM/PM peak like a commuter transit line, but a consistent significant portion of the boardings occur in the 10AM to 4PM time frame, indicating that the intended use as a circulator is being fulfilled.
The streetcar isn’t ALL about placemaking. It’s about connecting nearby urban places. (Lake Oswego proposal excluded.) It’s proponents refer to it as “Development Oriented Transit” rather than “Transit Oriented Development”. That doesn’t mean that it’s ALL about development, just that the emphasis is tilted the other way.
As for “VERY expensive”, not really. The entire current alignment, end-to-end, cost about $103 million, or about $12.9 million per track mile, including vehicles and the maintenance facility and storage yard.
For a current cost example, the eastside loop project under construction is budgeted at $148M, or roughly $22M per track mile, including getting across the Broadway bridge, new vehicles and expansion of the maintenance facility. More complicated and more expensive, yes, but not “VERY” expensive. (There will be a few more smaller projects after that to “close the loop”, but that’s the bulk of it.)
Bob R:
You make TIF sound a lot less controversial than it really is.
I think most people would conclude 100 million dollars is a lot of money. It’s in the “very” expensive range when one could contrast the type of service they could get with a similar bus line.
It’s also expensive when one could see how much we could fund bus service and better pedestrian/bicycle infrastructure if it’s truly about connectivity.
The whole point I am making is the streetcar is not a better connector any more than bus/bike/walking combo and it is not a better placemaking tool than, say a park.
If it’s not a better connector and is not a better placemaker — why are we embarking on this streetcar journey that we insist everyone have?
I think most people would conclude 100 million dollars is a lot of money.
Depends on what you get for it. One day of operations over Libya, for example, costs about $100 million. Each cruise missile, by definition a single-use product, costs about $1.41 million.
The whole point I am making is the streetcar is not a better connector any more than bus/bike/walking combo and it is not a better placemaking tool than, say a park.
With over 10,000 daily _weekday_ boardings on just 4 route-miles, some people do apparently find it useful for mobility and connectivity.
If it is your opinion that the streetcar is not a better connector and not a better placemaker, then it does follow that you would conclude it is not worth the money (or at least the priority given), and I completely respect that.
But my opinion is that it is a better placemaker and a useful connector in a way that a bus line is not, and for the right purposes I do support it.
OK, sorry to invoke the idea behind the name of Scotty’s other blog, but…
If you happen to think that temporary closure and relocation of (relatively) short segments of streetcar track after 6 or 10 or however many years is folly, would you at least agree that the removal of nearly ALL of the streetcar tracks in the years after WWII was folly?
I think what gets me most about the streetcar is the city I feel we could have in lieu of money spent on the streetcar.
Be that as it may, I am impressed with some of the numbers for streetcars. But those are numbers based on quite possibly the most ridiculous fare inspection system ever.
ws Says: “I do not get your comparison to streets. Did the city of Portland build a street, then rip it up and move it a few feet then rebuild it after 6 years?”
How about all of the streets that were ripped out when the freeways were built in the 60’s and 70’s? Were those a waste of money in the early 1900’s because they eventually were replaced with bigger, wider, faster roads?
Maybe it would help to think of the existing track between Riverplace and SoWa as Phase 1 of the Moody project. The city knew Moody was going to be completely rebuilt as plans for the Schnitzer and Zidell properties started to gel, so they purposely built a bare bones, minimalist, no-frills section of single track to get the streetcars from point A to point B in the interim. Just like you have to sometimes erect scaffolding and cranes and construction elevators for large projects that you know will be torn down once construction wraps up. That’s not wasting money because they’re being used as staging tools. Also, I’m sure every piece of rail and wooden ties and even the track bed will be reused on other projects.
Of course, if you believe that the project in question has no value to begin with, then it’s understandable that you’re going to think that the temporary structures used to stage it are also a waste of money.
If it’s not a better connector and is not a better placemaker — why are we embarking on this streetcar journey that we insist everyone have?
I have several friends who live near me, near the NW 23rd end of the current streetcar. They’ll take that, but they won’t take buses. For some reason they find buses confusing and/or dirtier.
It’s not a great sample size, but I’ve heard it as a factor that they chose NW. They all still mostly drive, but having the streetcar nearby was an added perk of the neighborhood.
So many people don’t know how to take the bus. I think that’s the biggest hurdle.
I have several friends who live near me, near the NW 23rd end of the current streetcar. They’ll take that, but they won’t take buses. For some reason they find buses confusing and/or dirtier.
~~~>The arrogance factor is real. It’s the same phenomena as a Mercedes driver who would never drive a Ford Ranger pickup truck.
I will never understand the love of the past, which is streetcars.
They are fixed route, can never be moved, they are fixed stop, never can do any sort of courtesy stop for anybody, are subject to things getting in their way and blocking service, one mechanical breakdown affects everything else on the line,I just don’t understand were this idea of “up scale” is coming from.
In the case of the pearl district development, its pretty obvious that these little streetcars have added to the desireablity of the condo’s that were up for sale. Having a free streetcar right out your door certainly is something that would help sell property.
But the empire of streetcars entangling the whole area?
It’s beyond bizarre and its unstoppable.
Trimet expansion, with the full endorsement of all the local governmental units, can not be stopped apparently.
It reminds me of this:
Substitute the word “Trimet” for the word “borg”
http://youtu.be/WZEJ4OJTgg8
WS: The people I was referring to know how to take a bus. They just won’t.
Mercedes driver who would never drive a Ford Ranger pickup truck
I don’t think I’m alone in supposing that there’s at least as many Ford Pickup snobs out there as Mercedes snobs. :-)
For the record, Streetcar was not TriMet’s idea, but came from citizens working on the Central City plan in the 80’s. It was paid for with LIDs and later with TIF, both of which are paid by local property owners. Its success is beyond dispute in both attracting riders and private sector investment (if you are opposed to the latter, what is your strategy for Portland’s future?) People prefer Streetcars to buses because they are quieter, easier to board and de-board, and offer a smoother ride less dependent on the driving skill of the operator.
Whether it can work to LO remains to be seen, but you can be sure that people will ride it who have never set foot in a bus and never will. Will it reduced congestion on 43? No, but it will offer a quality alternative to being stuck in that congestion in either a bus or a car.
Will it reduced congestion on 43? No, but it will offer a quality alternative to being stuck in that congestion in either a bus or a car.
Only if it’s faster than the bus stuck in congestion — which, under the current proposal, it probably won’t be.
I’ll bet in the peak hour which is the only time congestion is an issue, many riders and potential riders would much rather be in something with its own ROW, in this case a faster Streetcar, than inching along in traffic in the 35. The Macadam “jog” is an issue, unless Streetcar gets exclusive ROW like MAX downtown. Streetcar opponents compare the average travel times of the proposed line vs bus, but what matters is the relative difference in the peaks.
Reliability and predictability are as important as speed if not more so. Did you ever ride the 5 bus on Interstate? One never knew just how long a peak hour trip might be (and sometimes in felt like forever!), while now MAX is 20 minutes from Expo to RQTC come rain or shine…and ridership is now almost 3 times the old 5. People like a first class ride.