Oregonian front page article on the Lake Oswego transit project.
[updated with some additional info]
This morning’s Oregonian has a front page article on the Lake Oswego transit project. The article mainly focuses on the funding and politics associated with the project:
- The article notes the presence of significant organized opposition from Dunthorpe residents, including former senator Bob Packwood, and Multnomah County commissioner Deborah Kafoury.
- The article discusses the price tag in detail. Project supporters may object to the article’s headline (“Is $458 million streetcar worth it”); the article breaks down the costs and funding sources–including the Willamette Shoreline ROW and some other publicly-owned properties whose value will be considered for a federal match. Open questions include how much value the land will be appraised at for matching purposes (opponents of the project are hoping the federal match will be lower; in order to make the local contribution unaffordable), and whether a 60% match is likely. The project cost is well below the $1 billion cutoff for a 60% match (this is why Milwaukie MAX to only get 50%); and there’s some concern that the federal New Starts program might not view a streetcar project as within its scope. (Metro expects a 60% match).
- The relationship between the project and developer Williams/Dame & White, who are developing the proposed Foothills project in Lake Oswego, which would anchor the line, are examined.
- Next steps in the project: The city of Lake Oswego will vote on the project on April 19, in what is expected to be a close vote; Portland will vote on it on the 20th, where it is expected to easily pass.
Also, the City of West Linn wants in on the project, citing concerns about the project affecting West Linn bus commuters on the 35 (who would be forced to transfer once the project is completed), and of potential future traffic impacts. The city of West Linn is not calling for the project to be shelved–one of their concerns is making sure that a future extension south is not foreclosed–but wants to have input on the project’s development.
43 responses to “The Oregonian article on the Lake Oswego streetcar”
It turns out that Trimet board member Tiffany Sweitzer is the step daughter of Homer Williams.
Money for everything under the sun in these United States, just not for transit that helps people, and benefits for public employees.
Plenty of money for developers and wars, the sky is the limit for them.
Does it strike anyone else as odd that we have a regional commuter train functioning as a street car (MAX downtown) and a proposal to use a streetcar as a regional commuter (Lake O. streetcar)?
The whole project is nuts. – This from a self-confessed rail devotee
Does it strike anyone else as odd that we have a regional commuter train functioning as a street car (MAX downtown) and a proposal to use a streetcar as a regional commuter (Lake O. streetcar)?
I realize this seems incongruous, but things happen for a reason.
The region’s rail system is an evolution. When MAX started in the 80’s, no one would have invested in a subway for a new mode, they would have been laughed out of the room. Someday we’ll evolve to a subway, but as has been pointed out elsewhere, that probably won’t happen until all the major commuting corridors get rail first. There’s more ROI from expanding the system than there is from optimizing existing segments.
As for the Willamette Shoreline corridor, MAX was evaluated more than a decade ago, it simply won’t physically fit in the constrained right-of-ways in the corridor. So streetcar is being used as ‘Max lite’.
That’s my biggest problem with this project. “Rapid” and “Streetcar” are mutually exclusive. You can’t have rapid transit if you’re poking along through John’s Landing, SoWa and PSU before getting downtown. As a circulator for just those neighborhoods… yeah, absolutely I’m in favor of that. And connect it to Sellwood as well. But running a streetcar for 6 miles (over half of it through Riverdale and Dunthorpe where there is zero opportunity for densification) makes absolutely no sense.
If Lake Oswego and the big developers want REAL rapid transit, a better, less expensive, higher capacity, faster and more efficient way to accomplish that would be to build a 2-mile MAX spur from downtown Milwaukie. Then the 35 bus can remain and provide the frequent service that is long overdue for the entire Hwy 43 corridor. And they can still extend the streetcar to John’s Landing. Clearly, EVERYBODY wins with this option.
If Lake Oswego and the big developers want REAL rapid transit, a better, less expensive, higher capacity, faster and more efficient way to accomplish that would be to build a 2-mile MAX spur from downtown Milwaukie.
Metro requested that this option be analyzed as part of the earlier analysis phase and the conclusion was that such a spur would serve a different set of trip patterns that the Willamette Shoreline corridor would.
Then the 35 bus can remain and provide the frequent service that is long overdue for the entire Hwy 43 corridor.
Except that as 43 congests (and it is not practical to widen it), the 35 will get slower and slower. The predicted ridership demand can be served at a lower operating cost on the streetcar as indicated in the DEIS.
Streetcars (by which I mean the smaller, narrower rail vehicles that have the lower axle loads, widths, and turning radii needed to operate in mixed traffic) can be rapid, if run in their own right of way; this mode of operation is common with European trams. If you do that, there’s not too much difference between it and some types of light rail, performance-wise.
The LO streetcar, unfortunately, is likely to run in mixed traffic through Johns Landing, and in several parts of the existing line–so the rapidness is in question. That’s an issue with the implementation, though, not the technology.
Chris:
I think that a majority of commuters coming from Lake Oswego and points south are heading into downtown. Yes, there are some people who will want to go from LO to John’s Landing or SoWa, and a streetcar on the WST ROW would work well for them, but that slows down the majority of people who just want to get in and out of downtown. I think a MAX spur into LO would do more to relieve traffic on 43 than would forcing commuters onto the streetcar. It would actually entice people to ditch their cars and even transfer off of the 35 if they knew it was a faster trip into downtown on the MAX.
And you are correct, it IS a different set of trip patterns. But the MAX spur actually provides addition connections that aren’t available now or with the new streetcar. An additional transit, bike and pedestrian connection across the Willamette inside Clackamas County provide another dimension of accessibility for residents on both sides of the river. And an attractive alternative to the Sellwood Bridge for a lot of people.
Scotty:
I didn’t mean to imply that streetcars couldn’t be fast. Just that when using them in this situation, as you said, in mixed traffic, calling them rapid is very misleading.
I’d like to see ODOT back up their FAQ that says they estimate getting Eugene to Portland high speed rail would cost between about $1.9 billion and $2.1 billion. If all we can get for 1/4 that cost is a streetcar from Lake Oswego to Portland, why don’t we look at something that might cost 4 times as much, but serve the three biggest metro areas of the state first?
I just can’t understand this project. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the main justification–cited by both officials in Portland and Lake Oswego–is to spur development. Both say essentially “light rail is a means to an end.”
This must be bitter medicine to those–like me–who like in the SE part of town full of dirt roads, little bike infrastructure, and rapidly diminishing bus service.
How can I avoid the conclusion that this is just pouring money to make a rich suburb even richer?
It’s a boondoggle project that is not really needed, just like the max orange line.
It brings in tons of money which keeps all the nice little executives in jobs for the next _____ years and lines lots of pockets in the process.
This is America after all.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch people can’t get back and forth to work because of the bus cuts.
Too bad for them, they were born into the wrong class of Americans.
Too bad you can’t be with me on my 67, trying to explain to hispanics and others that they have to walk about a mile and a half to get the 52 because they get no decent service on Saturday and none on Sunday.
It’s pathetic the way things are in this country now, actually, pathetic is the wrong word, it’s downright pornographic the way things are in this country today.
I think the biggest thing this project has in its favor is the existing trolley track. It’s right at the terminus of the current streetcar line, the existing ROW brings down the real local cost quite a bit, it would be kind of a shame for it to go to waste. There’s even a cool old tunnel they’re apparently going to reuse.
But it seems strange that this would come before Streetcar down Hawthorne or Sandy or anything except this. And very, very, annoying that for some reason some lousy condos that probably won’t even be here there in 2040 get to screw it up and make it cost more. If you follow the tracks through the area in Google Maps, it really doesn’t look all that bad. There are a few units it comes pretty close to. There are commercial properties to the west that are on the east side of Macadam. Willamette Park could probably be put to nicer use somehow. It’s not much of a walk at all to get to the places on the west side of Macadam. I bet it wouldn’t take much to mitigate the streetcar coming through next to these condos on Landing Drive I’m looking at. They’re stumpy, sprawled out and it probably wouldn’t be that hard to prune them back a little.
If they go forward with the trip times for this “rapid” transit project looking as poorly as they do now, it’s going to be a real shame. It might even get worse, they still haven’t decided on the other detours from the track.
Dave H:
Does anyone believe that ODOT ever comes up with an accurate initial cost for any project?
Replacing the bridge at Sellwood started at $80 million, reached $320 million, then settled back to $290 million. Multnomah County Commission never seemed interested in choosing an economic and functional project.
Entice the yokels with a cheap entry, then bloat it for all the political market will bear.
Jim, unfortunately it’s become very common it seems. I agree with Aaron that the existing ROW is a nice plus for the streetcar project, but it still seems like an odd choice to prioritize it over so many other projects.
Al, perhaps you should spend some time in a similar city and see how “bad” it really is in Portland. I hail from Indy where our ridership level is approx 10% of what you get in Portland.
Our general level of service is even worse than your bad service now. When there are cuts, people really feel it. Not only that, we don have rail, and the bus sysem we have sadly reaches a much lower percentage of the population than in Portland.
Our service is based upon a social service approach and it even fails at that with overheads listed as half hour but in which 45 minutes is a reasonable headway.
Next time you complain about Portland’s changes think about how bad some of the rest of us have it. You could have a much worse level of service.
I have always stated that Portland has excellent service!
The west side does not!
It’s insulting to watch all this building going on in front of me while I work daily with people that can’t get home from work.
disclaimer:it should be obvious that I represent no agency or organization, if you think I do then get your head examined.
Al’s bus (the 67) runs through the suburb of Beaverton, running a diagonal route between a major community college campus and the Beaverton Transit Center. The transit out here leaves much to be desired compared to the transit in the city–there’s only one frequent service bus line (the 57/TV Highway) in Beaverton, and many of the local bus lines only provide weekday service. And ridership on the bus lines tends to be mainly poor people, moreso than in Portland itself, where there’s a definite transit chic.
OTOH, land use patterns in Beaverton, other than a few corridors (mostly along the MAX line), aren’t terribly supportive of transit. Lots of single-family, single-use neighborhoods, sprawling industrial parks, and auto-focused development; and Beaverton (along with Gresham) are among the transit-friendliest of Portland’s burbs. (The presence of light rail has something to do with that, I suspect). If you go to Tualatin, the bus service is far worse.
OTOH, we probably still have it better than Indy, where the city is (politically) at the mercy of its suburbs, and a political culture which largely views transit as welfare–and thus sees no reason to make it attractive.
We would not be talking about a LO Streetcar were it not for public ownership of the old SP Jefferson rail line. Exclusive ROW is essential to reliable, if not as rapid as some would like, transit, and it is often the most difficult piece of the puzzle.
Here we own it…its tough to just cast it away.
I’m not a bit surprised that the tax dodgers of Dunthorpe oppose and may well kill the LO Streetcar. Some tried to kill the Willamette Shore Trolley. The knives would come out for any trail idea as well.
Portland should proceed with a local version thru John’s Landing, buying up the impacted condo’s with the same offer extended to Gibbs Street property owners when the Tram was built. Some day Streetcar could extend across the Sellwood Bridge and out Tacoma to the MLR. Maybe LO later gets it nerve back to fight the Dunthorpers. Meanwhile, it would be a fun ride if the barned Vintage Trolleys could be fitted with a power system so they could be added to the WST rolling stock. Then more of us could enjoy the cool ride over the high trestles, thru the curved tunnel and along the private gardens of Dunthorpe.
Lenny’s got a point … what would it cost to extend a mostly-single-track line down the ROW to Willamette Park, with stations at Hamilton Court, Boundary Street, Pendleton Street and Nebraska Street? Pretend for a moment we’re not looking for federal money and all the requirements that go with it. Double-track at each station platform so northbound and southbound cars can pass one another, and use signaling to keep the tracks clear.
It would be about 1.2 miles of track, with four small station platforms 5 to 6 blocks apart — walkable for the entire neighborhood. It SHOULD be a pretty cheap project (just over a mile of new/upgraded track and overhead wire) unless the trestle between Flower and Boundary needs to be rebuilt.
And Willamette Shore Trolley can continue to run vintage trolleys from Willamette Park to Lake Oswego.
I think that is the best option for John’s Landing, although I’d go one more station south to Nevada where Taylor’s Ferry meets Macadam at the Zupan’s supermarket. A supermarket is something that the SoWa neighborhood is desparately lacking, but it would be an easy ride via streetcar.
If they keep it in the ROW, the 1.5 miles would be extremely cheap to build (relative to the total 6-mile long project) and reach the areas with the most opportunity for dense infill development.
I hope Chris Smith can weigh in on this proposal, Lenny’s proposal makes a lot more sense to me than the current proposed line out to Lake O. You’d still get the development benefits in John’s Landing, keep it all on dedicated right of way, and create a pretty damn convenient connection between SoWa, John’s Landing, and downtown. All seemingly for a relatively cheap cost.
Has this alternative been studied? Any idea on what the price would be?
I’ve got no problem with Lenny’s proposal, either.
The project DEIS includes a MOS for streetcar to the bridge, but it’s a funding thing: what we could do with a little money right now but with the intention of completing the full extension later on. It also includes forced transfers to streetcar from 35/36 buses. That’s a non-starter for those of us who actually use Hwy 43 transit.
If TriMet would – and could afford to – allow us to keep the line 35 frequent service that we’ve been promised for so long and which is budgeted in the RTP, then a lot of us corridor transit riders wouldn’t be so vociferous in our objections to the streetcar.
Maybe the existing trolley line should simply be retracked and then buy a few more old trolley cars with the add on diesel engine. What would the cost for that be? $20 million? Have an express bus most of the day, too.
Exactly, just upgrade the tracks that are already there and buy a few more streetcars. Although not the vintage ones. They need to be ADA accessible. The vintage trolleys should be reserved for tourist excursions only, not everyday service.
Also, isn’t forcing people off the 35/36 to get on a streetcar like trying to force people off the 77, 17 and 15 in NW to get on the streetcar? My guess is they’re only proposing this to boost the ridership numbers of a LO streetcar. The only way shortening the 35/36 makes sense is if they extend light rail to LO via Milwaukie. But even then, either the 35 or 36 will still need to serve Hwy 43.
To clarify, I meant just upgrade the tracks to Taylor’s Ferry, just short of the Sellwood Bridge.
Are all you guys drinking cool aid from Dunthorpe?
The real question is whether LO ready to stand up to the tax dodgers to their north.
I was told by someone in the know that the Vintage Trolly folks would love to put their cars onto the WST line, but they are too heavy for the existing track and would need power supply modifications.
The key is the value of the publicly owned ROW to LO; you probably need to use the whole thing to make anything pencil out.
Lenny,
The LO segment of the streetcar line feels like a WES-type shoehorning of a mode into a place where it doesn’t fit. My hunch is that the segment from the Sellwood Bridge north (John’s landing) will have good ridership numbers, but anything south will be not-so-hot.
The nice thing about stopping at the Sellwood Bridge is that it can always be extended later. The city can continue to run the vintage trolley down to LO on weekends in order to maintain ROW.
I have no sympathy for Dunthorpers or anyone in John’s Landing who purchased property on an existing rail ROW. I’m talking about development opportunity and ridership. There is NONE in the stretch from John’s Landing to LO, but that’s over 2/3 of the corridor length (and over 2/3 of the cost). It simply doesn’t make sense for streetcar, period. Plus, it penalizes bus riders south of downtown LO by eliminating their only direct access to downtown Portland.
It doesn’t pencil out, period
I don’t want to get into another thing with the five letter f word, but there is absolutely nothing in the real world – planned or existing – which gives any credence to the official ridership, traffic volume, or bus trip time projections. At least the idea of not running it past the bridge doesn’t do much harm as long as there are no forced transfers.
In his presentation to the West Linn city council a few days ago, BC prof Patrick Condon said that a streetcar needs 10 to 15 housing units per gross acre (including streets, pathways, creeks, etc.) to be successful. That would mean that Johns Landing would have to have the equivalent of very roughly 16,000 residents, or somewhere around four times what it has now. There probably is some credit for businesses against the housing requirement, but I didn’t catch it in his talk. It’s probably one of those things that he hopes will get us to buy his book.
I think 10-15 housing units per acre is entirely doable for John’s Landing. I’m not sure where you got the 16,000 residents number since there aren’t 1,000-1,600 acres in the neighborhood. But JL can certainly support streetcar service as-is, and even moreso as it densifies.
Running more buses on a congested Rt 43 doesn’t get you much and costs TriMet a lot more per ride.
It really is up to Lake Oswego to make the whole thing work. Do they want more density between 43 and the River? Do they want a reliable transit link to Central Portland that will attract new riders? They may not. Let’s see how they vote.
LO Streetcar is another experiment in Portland’s growing list that could take us where we have never been before. The bus option is unlikely to be funded as it will neither attract private investment nor new transit riders.
Its worth noting that WES was Washington county’s idea and runs on a private RR right of way. To be fair something totally new like that probably needs 10 years to prove itself.
Lenny:
1) If LO and Dunthorpe don’t want streetcar then it makes zero sense to build because the ridership numbers won’t be there.
2) Even if they do want it, I’ve got big concerns that ridership won’t materialize because the trip times aren’t competitive.
3) The present proposal has streetcar running on 43 for at least part of its journey, which means that it won’t be much faster than the bus (and potentially slower because of how slow the streetcar is once it gets to PSU (northbound).
Personally I like what we did with the MAX yellow line, Vancouver didn’t want to pay their share so we built to the Expo Center and will expand northbound if they change their minds. There’s a case to be made for extending streetcar at least as far as the Zupan’s in John’s Landing, extend it there now and let’s wait until it makes sense to send it the rest of the way (assuming it ever does). Spending the money to build a non-performing line will create really poor public perception (see WES), which could make the line non-viable in the long term.
OK – 1 at a time
1. I looked at the distance between Lowell and the Sellwood bridge on TriMet’s map which has a measuring “tape” and came up with a little over 2 miles. Dr. Condon was using a 10 minute walking distance for streetcar so I figured 1/4 mile each side of 43 or a half mile swath = 640 acres. 10 units per acre (remember – its gross acres) means 6400 units, & 2.5 per unit – 16,000 residents.
Dr. Condon is definitely a streetcar supporter. He said in his presentation that he expects the LO streetcar to be extended via West Linn to Oregon City by 2050. So if he says at least 10 units per acre, it’s probably a pretty conservative minimum.
2. 43 peaked in the 90’s and has been going down ever since. Yes, the Sellwood Bridge closure is significant, but the other side of the river isn’t growing all that much, either. Milwaukie MAX should take a lot of transit pressure off the bridge. The single biggest factor in the long term prospects for Hwy 43 traffic is the aging of LO & WL. They’re 1st and 2nd respectively among all the larger (over 20K) cities in the metro area for average age, per capita income, and average home value. This is a demographic which insures low growth in 43 traffic for decades to come.
3. The cost per ride thing is very much dependent on the number of riders v. the cost of operating a vehicle on a given trip. Last I checked, it cost about 50% more to operate a streetcar than a bus per hour. On this run, a bus averages about 40% faster than streetcar. Combine the two and you get an operating cost per trip for streetcar at about 210% that of a bus. So anytime a streetcar doesn’t have at least twice as many passengers plus one as a bus at capacity at least at one point on a run, TriMet would be losing money. That’s roughly 109 riders using TriMet’s effective capacity of 54 riders on a 40LF.
4. Look at the 35 or 36 schedule. No more than 33 and as little as 18 minutes between the LOTC and Pioneer Courthouse. It will take at least 43 minutes for the same trip when using streetcar.
5. I’m a guy who happens to really like streetcars and who thinks that the current experimental adventures have a very high probability of ruining it for the future.
6. No problem with WES taking 10 years to prove itself. The problem is with the expectation of 2400 daily riders the 1st year and 4000 within 11 years coupled with such an extreme operational cost. If TriMet could get a real premium fare for providing the real premium service then it would be a success.
7. Dunthorpe would never be able to provide the ridership. LO & WL could theoretically do it, but that’s assuming that we’ll be perfectly willing to put up with significantly longer trip times and less convenient service. I don’t know about anybody else, but we (my wife & I) will not be able to use streetcar as much as we use the 35/36. There really are trips that we are taking now that will not be possible with streetcar. We’d still use it, just not as much.
8. Johns Landing residents and business property owners are in favor of streetcar as long as it’s mostly on Macadam. Most Dunthorpe folks don’t want it in their backyards and Lake Oswego residents are choosing sides. While the LO city council is supposed to go 4 to 3 in support of streetcar, it’s not a done deal. The city has taken on a lot of costs over the last few years which many residents see as unnecessary and burdensome. The vote is scheduled to take place on April 19th but could possibly happen on the 12th. If in the unlikely but possible event that it goes against streetcar, the world could get a lot more interesting.
Bubba –
Use of a pseudonym here is OK, but please stick to just one so that people know they’re not debating sockpuppets.
You’ve used two identities in the past 24 hours, and at least six over the long term.
Thanks.
R A Fontes Says: “…. 1. I looked at the distance between Lowell and the Sellwood bridge on TriMet’s map which has a measuring “tape” and came up with a little over 2 miles. Dr. Condon was using a 10 minute walking distance for streetcar so I figured 1/4 mile each side of 43 or a half mile swath = 640 acres. 10 units per acre (remember – its gross acres) means 6400 units, & 2.5 per unit – 16,000 residents.”
RAF: I agree with your general premise, but your calculation is a little off. The distance from Lowell to Nevada (Zupan’s) is a little less than 1.5 miles. Between Nevada and the Sellwood Bridge, it’s park and river on one side and cemetery on the other, so nobody would be living there. Also, there is only a 1/4 mile walk on the west side of the tracks. The east side is mostly parks and river, except for a few scattered buildings. So really, it’s only 1.5 x .25 miles = .375 sq miles….. x 640 acres/sq mile = 240 acres gross. So assuming 10 units/acre and 2.5 people/unit, you get a population of 6,000. Again, completely reasonable for John’s Landing and streetcar there would be very successful and a great catalyst for new development.
“Running more buses on a congested Rt 43 doesn’t get you much and costs TriMet a lot more per ride.”
But that’s why they could have the retracked rail line and the ADA compliant diesel pushed trolleys, or whatever. A bus is perfect most of the time since HWY 43 is only crowded during rush hour and probably doesn’t need a lot of stops in Dunthorpe. People could get off in SOWA and ride the streetcar in the city center.
Aaron:
The idea of “gross acres” includes things like rivers, parks, and cemeteries. Otherwise we could ‘justify’ streetcar between a small trailer park with 16 spaces on one acre and the nearest city miles away.
The numbers stand.
Ron:
No forced transfers to streetcar —- in Lake Oswego, Johns Landing, or SOWA. It’s far too slow and doesn’t go where most riders want to go. Remember, streetcar will be losing its small section of exclusive ROW alongside Moody to be replaced by MAX. It will get the Jade Palace realignment, possibly netting a minute at best compared with the current alignment.
Forced transfers to MAX make at least some sense and become more logical as the transfer points get farther and farther away from the CBD. MAX is faster than streetcar, especially on exclusive ROW, and goes through the heart of downtown rather than along its periphery. But forced transfers to streetcar? NO!
Bob R: I generally connect from a home and work laptop, and had cleared cookies on both recently. I realized I’d posted as a different name twice in this thread and meant to switch it back… I wasn’t purposely trying to switch identities (which I hope was obvious by my posting)
RA Fontes: I agree 100% with your judgment about counting the .25 miles on either side of the tracks (regardless of what’s there), but there’s no sense in sending the streetcar to the Sellwood Bridge because as Aaron says there’s nothing there. So if you use 1.5 miles for the length of the line (terminating at Nevada) then you need 12,000 people on either side of the line.
bubba-
We agree completely. I only went out to the bridge because that’s what’s in the MOS.
During the Alternatives Analysis phase, the thinking was just to go to Nevada for the MOS. I have no knowledge of why that was changed but it might possibly have something to do with Mayor Adams’ desire to have streetcar on the bridge.
I really cant figure out why some simple improvements to the WST cant be done to speed it up and run the improved WST on a regular schedule between LO and SoWa. It would cost peanuts. If they can speed it up a little there could be a single rail car that runs on the track between LO and SoWa with an easy transfer in SoWa to the streetcar.
We seem to be forgetting that there is already a trolley running on this very right of way, this current arrangement is not being taken advantage enough by those planning this line. They could really build off of this situation that the line is already in use for an almost identical, albeit barebones, service.
RAF:
OK, I understand what you’re saying now. But the concept of “Gross Acres” seems a little convoluted. Wouldn’t it just be easier to say, for example, you need at least 8,000 residents living within a 1/4 mile for every linear mile of streetcar? That’s regardless of the number of developable acres on either side. And I’m sure there are modifiers for # of businesses, schools, major destinations, etc.
Anyway, John’s Landing is pretty dense now and it has many properties with great potential for new high density development… something for which the streetcar can be a great catalyst. But I agree that forcing streetcar through Dunthorpe is a really bad idea. The ridership will never be there to justify the cost.