Here’s a great article from the Pioneer Press in Minneapolis/St. Paul that talks about how the FTA calculates a Cost Effectiveness Index for transit projects.
The Streetcar Loop is going through the same process and is subject to the same 23.99 magic number. Our problem is that every time we submit data that gets us under the magic number, they tweak the model and put us back over.
And the games go on…
50 responses to “How the Feds Mess with Transit Projects”
That link isn’t working for me, (firefox on XP,) but this one is:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_8123739
Well they did change the rules to enable our WES
Well they did change the rules to enable our WES
Yes, after they delayed the project for two years in the process, increasing the cost through inflation.
This is the threat for the Streetcar Loop project. Even if the FTA doesn’t approve us, we’re almost certain to get a congressional appropriation, but that would come about 6 months later, adding several million to the project for inflation. Since the Federal piece is capped at $75M, that means the local contribution has to be increased to cover the inflation caused by the FTA playing games (actually more the OMB doing the game playing).
Nice. Gotta love this administration.
“Since the Federal piece is capped at $75M, that means the local contribution has to be increased to cover the inflation caused by the FTA playing games”
HEY CHRIS!
I got an idea!
How about we just tack on the inflationary cost increase to Portland citizens water bills!
Good idea huh?
“Since the Federal piece is capped at $75M, that means the local contribution has to be increased to cover the inflation caused by the FTA playing games”
HEY CHRIS!
I got an idea!
How about we just tack on the inflationary cost increase to Portland citizens water bills!
Good idea huh?
“Since the Federal piece is capped at $75M, that means the local contribution has to be increased to cover the inflation caused by the FTA playing games”
HEY CHRIS!
I got an idea!
How about we just tack on the inflationary cost increase to Portland citizens water bills!
Good idea huh?
Do the Feds play similar games with highways?
Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to how it’s a “game”. Having some sort of index that projects must meet seems reasonable to me. The fact that it takes a supercomputer all night to calculate that number speaks to the fact that planning models with such a huge amount of variables can’t possibly be an accurate tool to use. But of course we rely extensively on them anyway… But that’s just my opinion.
So back to my original question – what make this process a “game”?
Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to how it’s a “game”. Having some sort of index that projects must meet seems reasonable to me.
What seems to make this a “game”, at least in the case of the streetcar proposal, is that the engineers working on the project have come up with scenarios which meet the index requirements, only to be told later that the parameters of the simulation have been changed and that their proposal now fails. I’m told this has happened multiple times.
“Yes, after they delayed the project for two years in the process, increasing the cost through inflation.”
Ok but changing the rules didn’t make WES worthy. It still isn’t.
Too bad the feds didn’t stick to their guns and not fund it.
“Nice. Gotta love this administration.”
We’re facing the huge backlogs in road and bridge maintenance and our local “administration”s put another $1.4 Billion for more light rail at the head of the line.
Nice. Gotta love these administrations.
John E. –
Federal funding for light rail, streetcars, and BRT comes from a different process than federal funding for roads. Having a light rail or streetcar proposal does not preclude federal involvement in highway and bridge proposals. If you don’t put forward a proposal, the money doesn’t suddenly go to a bridge project, it goes to another city’s transit project.
That being said, if you feel that the federal government is spending too much money overall on transit projects, or that those projects need to meet a more stringent formula before being funded, the best place to take that up is with your federal elected representatives.
That’s just a distraction from the fact that there is an established federal program which is supposed to fund BRT and streetcar projects, and Portland is playing by the rules in the program and succeeding, only to find that the rules are changed in the middle of the game. (In fact, Portland was _invited_ to apply to this program.)
Bob,
Where did you get the impression I needed some elementary lesson on Federal funding?
Do you purposefully divert and re-start discussions from beginnings?
Our officials put forward proposals for transit instead of roads and bridges. As you well know they also regularily use fed road money for nonroad uses.
The point of my prior post was the priority funding for more light rail over our mounting needs for roads and bridges.
Come on, Bob, who doesn’t realize that “If you don’t put forward a proposal, the money doesn’t suddenly go to a bridge project”?
That’s obvious and addresses nothing.
Our state and local government is factualy spending too much money, from all sources, overall on transit and other nonroad projects.
No one is forcing them to propose transit to the feds.
Portland/TriMet did not play by the rules for WES. They lobbeyed to get the rules bent in the middle of the game.
They also bent the rules in the middle of the game when funding the Eastbank Esplanade.
Any nothing you said addressed the huge backlogs in road and bridge maintenance and our local “administration”s putting another $1.4 Billion for more light rail at the head of the line.
And that’s not including all the rest of the nonroad priorities in front of the line.
YOu didn;t
The $1.4 billion plus for more light rail is
The inside backpage of the Mercury this week has an insightful comic strip, Thingpart by Joe Sayers:
A pair of extra-terestrial robots have exterminated all human life on the planet. They thought the job was disgusting. They’d been here 50 million years ago and returned to find Earth crawling with humans. The planet barely had monkeys back then. One robot feeling guilty, confesses having possibly left a hamburger out on the counter.
This comic is the sum of all unreasonable opposition to rail transit – senselessly destructive and inhumane. Perhaps the robots were ideological predecessors of Ayn Rand?
John E –
If you don’t like “elementary lessons” being given, please consider your own remarks before criticising those of others.
Additionally, nothing you have said has contradicted the thesis of the original post.
“Additionally, nothing you have said has contradicted the thesis of the original post.”
Contradicted?
Try pointing out hypocricy.
TriMet is all in favor of the feds changing the rules in mid stream when it suits them. As it did with WES.
original post?
Something wrong with debunking the subsequent comments?
Such as
“Nice. Gotta love this administration.”
and you swerving off into fed transit funding restrictions.
I’ll repeat that our local “administrations” are exceedingly irresponsible in prioritizing, pursuing and funding all things transit, pedestrian and bike while deliberately neglecting basic road infrastructure.
You display a certain approval of this approach, demonstrate hypocricy with and when the feds change the rules, you pitch that local officials somehow have no choice and make like the neglected infrastructure has no connection to any of them or their priorities.
Ok, so you’re a dedicated rail transit, smart growth advocate. I get that.
Excuse me, but I see your advocacy as “Messing with” and harming our our transportation system.
I’d say something like you are being a senselessly destructive, inhumane ideological robot, but that’s probably against the rules.
So I won’t.
I’ll repeat that our local “administrations” are exceedingly irresponsible in prioritizing, pursuing and funding all things transit, pedestrian and bike while deliberately neglecting basic road infrastructure.
You’ll repeat, but you’ll be wrong.
Hawthorne Blvd. and Sandy Blvd. were just rehabbed and upgraded. The MLK Viaduct project is currently well underway. The Delta Park widening project for I-5 and several approaches has the go-ahead. Beyond Portland (since you brought up WES), I-205 was just widened by a lane each direction for 3 miles between I-5 and Stafford Road, along with interchange work. I-5 between Wilsonville and Salem was repaved last year.
You’ve picked one future light rail proposal as being “front of the line” and then claimed that roads are being neglected, but in fact other road projects are ahead of light rail as well. You can’t just pick an arbitrary point in time and then ignore history, and you seem to have ignored my “elementary lesson” about how money for transit projects and money for road projects comes from different federal programs. There is no hypocrisy here.
I’d say something like you are being a senselessly destructive, inhumane ideological robot, but that’s probably against the rules.
It is. That you’d set up such an insult and then immediately back away, pretending not to have delivered it, says more about you than it does about me.
said Bob R.
That being said, if you feel that the federal government is spending too much money overall on transit projects, or that those projects need to meet a more stringent formula before being funded, the best place to take that up is with your federal elected representatives.
Apparently the administration is a step ahead of your recommendation. In yesterday’s news it was pointed out that in the admin’s new budget, the highway trust fund is “coming up short”, so they want to “borrow” funds from the mass transit side.:-(
It’s true that money comes in various colors, but the Feds seem quite willing to re-paint funds when it suits their agenda.
OTOH, the budget is only a rough admin plan that Congress always messes with. Today’s O has a cartoon showing the congressional leaders showing up at the White House to pick up the budget … in a hearse. I guess the message is the lame-duck budget is DOA.
Mike
Mike
…while deliberately neglecting basic road infrastructure.
In addition to the projects that Bob already posted, the Oregon side is spending funds on the CRC and Sellwood studies as well.
Get him Bob R!!
haha,
You can’t really get over on Bob R John E!
John E. “I’ll repeat that our local “administrations” are exceedingly irresponsible in prioritizing, pursuing and funding all things transit, pedestrian and bike while deliberately neglecting basic road infrastructure.”
Let’s just take one of those…Currently 1.6% of PDOT’s capital budget goes to bicycle infrastructure.
How do you define hypocritical?
Well I guess Sam just made up the $1/2 billion in maintenance backlog and I am just imaginging our congestion worsening. And the Sellwood bridge was not neglected it just aged to fast?
Bob are you kidding when you said I “picked one future light rail proposal”?
Come on pal. The non road projects are all over the place. Do I have to list them all for you?
And they are in “front of the line” while roads and bridges have been neglected for decades.
It’s amazing that you deny this.
Your examples of streetscaping on Sandy anmmd Hawthorne made me laugh.
All over the region streets and sidewalks have been ignored while you and yours advocate other projects.
I-205 project was a $45 million joke. There no noticable difference from any angle or use. The after thought widening abrubtly ends at Stafford and means nothing but more chaos spending of 10s of millions. That was a very suspicious project as well. Massive excavation and drain field work took place for months. Likely some obscured environmental work paid for with road dollars.
Explain the wisdom in building a new light rail bridge before a new Sellwood Bridge?
I suspect there’s conniving to add buses to the light rail bridge and put off the Sellwood bridge indefinetly.
And Bob
When I said
“I’d say something like you are being a senselessly destructive, inhumane ideological robot, but that’s probably against the rules.”
I was echoing Wells just above me.
What’s that say about him?
John E-
Need I remind you that ALL GOVERNMENT projects are basically boondoggles;
Federal-State-Local………..
Price fixing is rule of law, eg.,
Oil companies that have made record profits this year.
The free market was dead decades ago, AND THATS LIFE MY FRIEND!
“The divine right of kings may have been a plea for feeble tyrants, but the divine right of government is the keystone of human progress, and without it governments sink into police, and a nation is degraded into a mob.”
****Benjamin Disraeli****
John E-
Need I remind you that ALL GOVERNMENT projects are basically boondoggles;
Federal-State-Local………..
Price fixing is rule of law, eg.,
Oil companies that have made record profits this year.
The free market was dead decades ago, AND THATS LIFE MY FRIEND!
“The divine right of kings may have been a plea for feeble tyrants, but the divine right of government is the keystone of human progress, and without it governments sink into police, and a nation is degraded into a mob.”
****Benjamin Disraeli****
John E-
Need I remind you that ALL GOVERNMENT projects are basically boondoggles;
Federal-State-Local………..
Price fixing is rule of law, eg.,
Oil companies that have made record profits this year.
The free market was dead decades ago, AND THATS LIFE MY FRIEND!
“The divine right of kings may have been a plea for feeble tyrants, but the divine right of government is the keystone of human progress, and without it governments sink into police, and a nation is degraded into a mob.”
****Benjamin Disraeli****
“The Streetcar Loop is going through the same process and is subject to the same 23.99 magic number. Our problem is that every time we submit data that gets us under the magic number, they tweak the model and put us back over.”
>>>> So? Somehow I have the feeling that the numbers submitted to the FTA are tweaked before the submission.
John E., how about you actually respond to my point? I didn’t suggest that Sam made up anything. I was responding to something you wrote as a “fact.” And btw the Sellwood bride is the responsibility of Mult. County, not Portland. But you know that, don’t you?
And what the heck do you mean by this “Your examples of streetscaping on Sandy anmmd Hawthorne made me laugh.
All over the region streets and sidewalks have been ignored while you and yours advocate other projects.”
As someone who lives off of Hawthorne I can say that (finally) both street and sidewalk repair/improvement have been attended to. We love it! You ought to come over for a visit and see that actual streets and sidewalks are being maintained and dare I say it, improved.
I like that, “Sellwood bride”
Who will marry her, is the question ;)
John E. asks:
Answer:
A) Wells was commenting on a political cartoon, so it was not too much of a leap to expect hyperbole in response, B) Wells did not direct his remarks at a specific individual.
You, however, aimed your passive-aggressive insult at me. I did not remove it because as a moderator I try to allow criticism of my statements to remain in place, to avoid a false impression of censorship of opposing views. However, if you had directed that insult at any other individual who participates here, the comment would have been removed and you would have encountered a temporary suspension.
(Temporary blog suspensions have about as much real-world impact as a bent nickel, but that’s about the only power moderators have.)
If you feel you must resort to personally-directed insults to make your point, I suggest you take your demeaning rhetoric to another blog. Otherwise, your on-topic, factually-based, policy-oriented comments are welcome here.
=So? Somehow I have the feeling that the numbers submitted to the FTA are tweaked before the submission=
Of course they are!
What do you think this is?
DISNEYLAND?
Oh yea,
I forgot to mention, I belong to the
**TEMPORARY SUSPENSION CLUB**
We should start our own;
**i was suspended from portlandtransport.com club***
I don’t think too many people have the honor of that distinction.
As you can see, I don’t hold any hard feelings over the issue.
To be honest, I kinda enjoyed baiting Chris into it!
(see my investigative report on Chris Smith, it’s pretty hard not to like that guy}
What do you think this is? DISNEYLAND?
You’ve just survived the federal evaluation process and won a grant for your project, what are you going to do now?
I’m going to Disneyland!
:-)
PS… Rule #1 about temporary suspension club is that you don’t talk about temporary suspension club.
So my neighborhood is trying to get Lombard, (an ODOT street,) transfered to PDOT and then traffic calmed so that it can become an actual commercial district. We were discussing this last Tuesday, there are a few things along Lombard that are great, but in general, if you have to walk along Lombard, or cross Lombard, most of the people in my neighborhood association would rather drive. And Sandy was the definition of “what not to do,” we want to turn Lombard into Mississippi or Alberta.
Of course, we are part of the Interstate Urban Renewal Zone, so our neighborhood has money. I was talking to someone in another neighborhood last week, (who isn’t in Interstate Urban Renewal,) and while they felt the same way, they had no way to pay for it…
haha;
funny Bob R;
I can’t wait to hit the streets with you!
This will make history!
HEY ERIK:
And for people who question the value of streetcar projects, check this out!
http://theoildrum.com/node/3580
HEY ERIK:
And for people who question the value of streetcar projects, check this out!
http://theoildrum.com/node/3580
HEY ERIK:
And for people who question the value of streetcar projects, check this out!
http://theoildrum.com/node/3580
Test
1) Did Sam make up the $1/2 billion in maintenance backlog? Is it real and how did it get so big?
2) Am I just imaginging our congestion worsening?
3) Was the Sellwood bridge not neglected?
4) The list of non-road/non-bridge projects, planning and spending is huge. PDC, Metro, TriMet and other municipal projects are devouring counltess millions in fees, property taxes and gas taxes for non road improvements. Are these projects not in “front of the line” while roads, bridges and traffic increases are neglected?
5)WES will be devouring many millions more than the stated price of $120 million as station improvements, park and ride lots, shuttle service and other obscured copmponents pile on.
Had TriMet not tweaked the cost data and got the feds to tweak the rules would WES been funded?
6) Before you tout the $45 milion I-205/I-5 project as some big road improvement you should know the project.
7)Explain the wisdom in building a new light rail bridge before a new Sellwood Bridge?
Will the Milwaukee light rail bridge serves buses?
8) Expain the wisdom in a new ped/bike bridge over the Willammette in Wilsonville ahead of
9)Exlain why we can’t vote on new light rail expansions?
10) With many millions in municipal, county, regional, state and fed funding flowing to all your favorite projects how is it significant that the “Sellwood bridge is the responsibility of Mult. County, not Portland”?
As for my earlier post about the comic strip and my assessment that, “all unreasonable opposition to rail transit is senselessly destructive and inhumane,” I purposefully added the adjective ‘unreasonable’ because I do not object to ‘reasonable’ opposition. By ‘reasonable opposition’ I mean argument that gives due weight to likewise ‘reasonable’ argument that favors rail transit projects.
I’d like to state that unreasonable argument is immature, but that might be taken as offensive. What I mean by immature in this sense then, is that to fairly present either side of a debate, both sides must be considered. And when either or both sides neglect the opposing view, the debate is incomplete and thus immature. Something like that.
I believe that automobiles and motorized heavy equipment vehicles are an alien species from a distant planet trying to exterminate the human race. Gradually, they are evolving according to their species. Once they reach the point where they become self-animated with computer-controlled propulsion, they will begin a campaign of bloody hit and runs. Our only hope is a transportation system that can be contained on rail lines and separate power systems. Aaaaah!
“I believe that automobiles and motorized heavy equipment vehicles are an alien species from a distant planet trying to exterminate the human race. Gradually, they are evolving according to their species.”
W-O-W!!!!!!!!!!!
(too many science fiction films?)
HEY WELLS!
You might be interested in this:
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2179/cat/views/limit/views
A lot of people say they believe in something which they cannot prove. As long as no one can prove this belief of mine about motorized vehicles being an invading alien race is incorrect, I’ll go on believing it. Maybe I’ll start a religion. Our cars are like gods. When the end comes, hopefully, they’ll finish us off mercifully. Praise Tiburon! Praise Tiburon and get a price break if you order one today, no money down, where everyone knows cars cost less, Car Town USA.
“Maybe I’ll start a religion.”
I’m sure your not the only one who believes it.
But who’s tiburon?
You’ve just survived the federal evaluation process and won a grant for your project, what are you going to do now?
I’m going to Disneyland!
Given Disneyland’s successes in attracting ridership to the Disneyland Railroad and Disneyland Monorail System, I would hardly find Disneyland to be the punchline of a joke regarding transportation but rather an example of how to efficiently move people in a dense, urban environment.
On the flipside, its Streetcar (the Main Street Horse-Drawn Streetcar) is subject to frequent and unannounced closures, and is not as heavily used as the Railroad, of which receives substantial financial support from The Walt Disney Company as the railroad was actually the original basis for the park which later became themed for the Disney characters. It should also be noted that the Mark VII monorail vehicles are in the process of being delivered to Disneyland.
It should also be noted that the Toontown Trolley is also no longer in operation. Like the movie “Who Shot Roger Rabbit”, is the elimination of the Toontown Trolley a conspiracy?
In reference to Al’s comment to me (referencing the link to http://theoildrum.com/node/3580 )
Ridership on the Metro Orange was expected to grow steadily, building to 22,000 average weekday boarding passengers by the year 2020. Initial ridership during the first year was predicted to be between 5,000-7,000 daily riders. However, the line has proven immensely popular – ridership soared to more than 21,000 daily riders within the first six months of opening.
A January 2006 rider survey found that riders overwhelming approve of Orange Line features and time-savings: 95% indicated that they like the Orange Line Metroliner vehicle, 91% like the pre-paid boarding system. 92% normally have a seat for the trip. Additional findings were that:
– More than 50% of riders previously took a Metro Bus before the Orange Line opened.
– More than 1/3 of riders had a car available for the survey trip.
– 17% of all riders are new riders to Metro. 14% had been riding for less than a year.
In other words, when BUS SERVICE RECEIVES AN ADEQUATE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT, MORE PASSENGERS WILL RIDE THE SYSTEM.
I must agree that TriMet does tweak its numbers somehow, as TriMet refuses to acknowledge that investment upon bus projects will result in ridership increases. Rather it insists that MAX (and Streetcar) is the only way to go, resulting in a lack of investment in the regional bus system and turning off bus riders.
Then it whines and complains when the Federal Transit Administration starts questioning TriMet’s results.
Meanwhile, our elected Representatives don’t find it sexy to stand in front of a bus so they ride to Fred Hansen’s rescue and get another pet choo-choo project going under legislation rather than by established service metrics that Portland is having a hard time meeting.
Yet it is proven time and time again – in Los Angeles, in Seattle, in Vancouver, BC, and elsewhere – the investment in quality bus service results in an improved transit system and greater ridership.
Hi Erik,
As someone who road the Orange Line as part of my daily commute, I think you might want to find a survey that is more current than the one you quote which is from early 2005, not too long after the line opened in I believe Oct, 2005. I don’t mean to denigrate BRT as I am sure that there are instances where it is the best option. This, unfortunately, is not one of them. That the system proved hugely popular is, I suspect, due to people like myself desperate to find any alternative to commuting with a car on LA freeways and roads. The buses were jammed packed, filled by people pouring out of the Red Line subway station. The buses were supposed to run every 5 minutes but the buses were hopelessly bunched up everyday. There were times when 3 buses would pull up at once and the rush to board was a sight to behold. Mothers hold your children tight! Because of accidents (there were only red lights without crossing gates)at the more than 30 intersections the bus had to cross)the planned bus speeds proved ridiculously optimistic. There were so many buses running to try to handle the capacities that it started impacting the road traffic because of the frequency of a bus crossing an intersection. When I left LA there were talking about trying to find higher capacity buses. I might also add there were a heck of a lot of bus drivers on that line and you have to believe that the labor costs were much higher than with a train operator. I honestly believe the Orange Line was a no brainer for a higher capacity system – light rail maybe but more likely a Red Line extension of heavy rail.
Mike
That the system proved hugely popular is, I suspect, due to people like myself desperate to find any alternative to commuting with a car on LA freeways and roads. The buses were jammed packed, filled by people pouring out of the Red Line subway station.
Unless you are suggesting that Orange Line service has declined since 2005, the basic premise remains very true – when you properly invest in bus services, people will ride a bus.
Erik said:
“Unless you are suggesting that Orange Line service has declined since 2005, the basic premise remains very true – when you properly invest in bus services, people will ride a bus.”
That’s a pretty absolutist statement. As in most things in life, choice of a transportation mode is rarely always “yes, no” but more likely “it depends”. So I believe you miss the point I was trying to make (perhaps part of this is my own failing). This really is a classic form vs. function argument. I’ve read your many posts as a advocate of better bus service. Some of what you have stated I agree with. But I’ve always felt you gave too much emphasis to form at the expense of function. Ultimately, the goal of any transportation system, be it bus, car, light rail, is to move people from point A to point B. An an integral part of that movement is convenience, comfort and, of course, safety. My own personal decision to use the Orange Line was not because the buses were new or air-conditioned. But I am sure that based on the condition or “form” of these new buses, it was the deciding factor for some. But most people, especially those who were exchanging their car for a bus ticket, it was convenience that was most important. As a function of getting people from the terminus of the Red Line subway out into the Valley, the Orange Line was competitively convenient with the automobile. That’s because the buses had their own dedicated right of way, not because the buses had all the bells and whistles. They were faster (at rush hour much faster) than buses that ran along parallel routes on surface streets. Where this BRT system failed was a capacity issue. The number of people moving from A to B on this system was choked off at a point way below the demand that existed. The system is incapable of carrying the numbers of commuters that it could attract with little hope of seriously increasing rush hour capacity. In this instance, in this time and place, buses were a mistake.
Mike
But I’ve always felt you gave too much emphasis to form at the expense of function.
It’s only because Metro/Portland/TriMet have done this for 20 years now, and especially within the last ten years (incidently as long as Fred Hansen has been TriMet’s GM) – that there has been too much emphasis to form (more MAX/more Streetcar) at the expense of function (providing quality transit to ALL riders regardless of the mode they use or their geographic location).
If Portland could reverse this, and provide a proper level of investment for all MODES of transport, I’d say fine. In fact in 1997 (before Fred Hansen was in charge of TriMet) TriMet did this – a huge investment in BOTH Bus and MAX service.
Seattle and Vancouver are doing it as well. When I was in Tacoma last weekend I saw lots of nice, new busses, IN ADDITION to investment in commuter rail and light rail (the Tacoma Link streetcar). Seattle is buying 700 busses AND building light rail AND Streetcar.
Unfortunately I do not believe that Portland can just “invest” in bus service, because the damage is done. Just buying 50 busses a year (beginning one year from now) is not only NOT keeping up with demand but it’s completely insufficient to deal with the damage (an old and obsolete bus fleet).
If you have a plan to BOTH invest in bus AND MAX service, I’d love to hear it. Unfortunately I have zero faith in TriMet’s ability to do so, and I feel the only way it can be corrected is to “ground-stop” MAX and other rail investments, in order to provide a strong focus towards repairing Portland’s sorry state of bus service.