Apparently the OMB relented – the Portland Streetcar Loop appears in the President’s budget as a $50M line item (the remaining $25M would be in the following year’s budget).
Avoiding a Congressional battle to get this funding means the project can get started that much sooner!
66 responses to “Breaking News: Streetcar Loop in President’s Budget”
Somebody pulled some strings obviously.
Bush is going to have to try to get the next republican candidate elected, they must have decided that Oregon is in play.
(and of course Portland is Oregon, the rest of the state is marginalized)
(and of course Portland is Oregon, the rest of the state is marginalized)
Which is why we need to enact policies which encourage growth to happen outside the ONLY metroplex in the state. Portland shouldn’t be the only “city” in Oregon!
Greg, you make a good point. I’ve heard that some in Salem feel marginalized because the State Government is the largest employer. Maybe if other jobs were created in other markets (and not just service sectors like call centers and retail!), there’d be a reason to visit Salem other than lobbying your legislator or demonstrating.
Also, does it say anywhere how the $50 million total is being financed? Or is it (i.e, an additional $50 million in National Debt has been created)?
Somebody pulled some strings obviously.
Quite the contrary, we’ve been battling folks from OMB who have been trying to re-score our application to keep us from getting funded even after we met the criteria. This is a merit-based program, NOT an earmark.
Also, does it say anywhere how the $50 million total is being financed?
Federal Transit Administration is funded from the Highway Trust Fund (i.e., gas taxes), not from borrowing.
“This is a merit-based program, NOT an earmark.”
Oh come on Chris! Everything from the feds is quid pro quo and paybacks!
Congrats Chris,
Lots of hard work, good data, and a strong project with lots of support from the private sector make for success.
The transformation of westside Portland is breathtaking and Streetcar is the tie that binds.
It impact on the eastside will be transformative as well and cheered by anyone who loves this town.
This is great news. Congrats to Chris and all those involved in keeping this challenging project progressing! Now, if only the redevelopment market will cooperate….
We need to see some ‘detailed’ drawings of a rebuilt NE Broadway and Weidler between Larrabee and 7th – sidewalks, crosswalks, curb extensions, streetcar stops, traffic lane arrangements, etc. I’m all for taking on that segment of the streetcar project. It’ll be a challenge to make those streets pedestrian-friendly and development ready. The I-5 North entrance ramp on Broadway is a killer.
It’s odd that his highness George didn’t decree this streetcar project another blasted, bloated budget earmark alongside children’s health care, home heating oil for the poor, and food stamps.
from AP:
PORTLAND — The Bush administration has tentatively approved $50 million to help expand the Portland streetcar system — if the city can show it will be cost effective.
The Federal Transit Administration announced funding for 13 transit projects across the nation today, including the Portland streetcar expansion.
But the federal agency said that the Portland transit agency, TriMet, has to develop better ridership models and show the benefits of the streetcar system to get past the last hurdle for funding in 2009.
Portland may become the first city to receive funding for a streetcar project as part of a national program, if the expansion gets final approval.
Personally,
I continue to have problems with Portland getting all the attention while the rest of the service area languishes.
The max is so overcrowded at rush hour you can’t breath but they want to build more streetcars?
Sorry, it does not compute!
I think this service area is headed for trouble.
Wells, don’t forget MLK/Grand and the freeway ramp onto I-84 as well! I’m not sure the design has advanced this far but maybe Chris can fill us in on where it’s at. Signals timed for lower speeds would make a big difference too.
It’s odd that his highness George didn’t decree this streetcar project another blasted, bloated budget earmark alongside children’s health care, home heating oil for the poor, and food stamps.
Well, the Streetcar is actually a PERFECT example of “Bush’s Legacy” budget:
1. Presuming that the Streetcar will be built locally by Oregon Iron Works it will benefit what is likely a heavy Republican Party donor,
2. It will require the burning of COAL (through the Boardman Generating Plant) to energize it,
3. It serves generally wealthy developers and rich folk in Portland, while largely neglecting common folk that need reliable, quality transit to get from home to work,
4. It does little if anything to help reduce congestion, zero to help reduce highway use (and thus little reduction in the demand of “foreign oil”).
So this budget item actually fits quite nicely in Bush’s legacy to provide welfare to the rich and let the working middle class and below suffer once again, through Portland’s continued policy of bus system disinvestment — after all, is there a line item in Bush’s budget for replacement of TriMet’s aging bus fleet, or a massive investment in new bus stations, transit centers, shelters, Transit Tracker signs, and bus amenities?
Of course not, because THOSE investments would actually help the majority of Portland’s transit users.
Also, does it say anywhere how the $50 million total is being financed?
Chris:Federal Transit Administration is funded from the Highway Trust Fund (i.e., gas taxes), not from borrowing.
JK: Thanks for a clear admission that automobile taxes are subsiding mass transit. Something I have been claiming for ages around here.
Thanks
JK
JK,
What’s with this “clear admission” BS? Was this information somehow a secret before now? Who has ever denied that transit is subsidized? Sheesh.
What has been claimed is that automobile drivers do not pay the full cost of automobile usage, especially when external costs of auto usage are considered.
I’m glad you feel somehow vindicated by Chris’s straightforward (as usual) answer.
Since some of the comments in this thread tie the streetcar proposal to other spending priorities of the current white house occupant, perhaps it should be pointed out that in the 21.5 hours since Chris first started this thread, the US has spent more in Iraq than it will contribute to this particular streetcar plan FIVE TIMES over.
In the 15 seconds it may have taken you to read the paragraph above, another $48,000 was spent. If you stop to think about this for one second, another $3,200 goes away.
http://www.costofwar.com
Word up Bob. We could have high speed rail going to everyone’s doorstep with all the money and time wasted there.
But we haven’t quite spent as much money in the last 21.5 hours on nuclear weapons research than this streetcar proposal… Isn’t the cold war over? Didn’t we win it by bankrupting the Soviet Union? And instead of developing our own streetcar vehicles years ago, we’ve been buying them from ex-Soviet states, but we still seem to be intent on bankrupting ourselves by spending money on weapons. Who’s side is Bush on anyways?
I must conclude that this topic should be re-named to something like: Coal Burning Nuclear Armed Streetcar in Iraq Bankrupts US President…Can we get back to discussing transit, please?
How bout they take that $50 million AND add more service to what we already have and forget new lines for now?
HEY ERIK!
You need to start your own blog and keep all this stuff of yours in one place. You got good stuff and its scattered all around the internet!
Get your own blog started!
(I’m not kidding!)
When all these lines get built (streetcar, green line, etc) its gonna require funds to operate and maintain.
OK one of the big brained planners that post to this group:
Where exactly is the money going to come from to provide continued operations for all this stuff?
Hanson is already whining about budget problems, (getting ready for contract negotiations no doubt), so where in the hell is the operating capital coming from for all this stuff?
I can only think of one place, CUTS IN PRESENT SERVICE!
Where exactly is the money going to come from to provide continued operations for all this stuff?
The same place funding for buses comes from. Do you forget that MAX is cheaper to operate? Lower payroll, cheaper energy per mile, and longer lasting.
If I’m wrong, I’d love to see details of what a bus costs per passenger, passenger mile, or miles of driven in service and how it is cheaper.
The same place funding for buses comes from. Do you forget that MAX is cheaper to operate? Lower payroll, cheaper energy per mile, and longer lasting.
Blue and Red Line MAX are cheaper to operate than bus lines (The Red Line, only because it picks up passengers on the Blue Line from Gateway to Beaverton; I doubt that the Red Line from Gateway to the Airport would be cheaper than many bus lines.)
The Yellow Line is actually more expensive than TriMet’s busiest bus lines.
The Streetcar is more expensive than quite a number of bus lines.
It should also be noted that capital expenses are not included in MAX operating costs; while bus depreciation is included in bus operating costs (even though TriMet skims the revenue to cover depreciation and uses it to fund the matches for MAX expansion – which causes bus operations to be inflated AND create a direct subsidy for MAX.)
We can also discuss the average revenue per passenger between Streetcar and bus, and since a large portion of the Streetcar line is within Fareless square that automatically makes it lower; plus that the City of Portland/TriMet do not regularly have Fare Inspectors check for fares outside of Fareless Square, and media reports in the past report a large number of fare evaders that are going free due to a lack of enforcement.
Finally the bus operating costs are not broken out into the type of route or the routes themselves (at least not publicly). Routes like the 72-Killingsworth/82nd Avenue are very successful (in fact I believe it is actually “profitable”) because the entire route is heavily used without regards towards time of day. Routes like the 12-Barbur have heavy usage within Portland, but the further out it goes the ridership slackens out (particularly out to Sherwood). Express busses by their very nature are poor financial performers because over 50% of their runs are empty deadheads.
Yes, full two-car MAX train is going to cost less to operate than to transport the same number of passengers on busses. However keep in mind that a large number of those MAX passengers are using a subsidized park-and-ride lot or are transferring to other busses that now become inherently expensive to operate because they only handle a few passengers connecting to/from MAX, as opposed to providing transit services that serve multiple O&D points (like the 12, 33, 57 or 72 do.) Any time a passenger transfers between two vehicles (whether it is bus-to-bus, bus-to-MAX, MAX-to-bus, bus-to-Streetcar, etc.) his/her trip becomes much more expensive.
Are we really talking about a cost comparison of the Gresham MAX line to buses—-Or should we get a cost comparison of projected and or proposed MAX lines to buses? I think the latter is the burning issue. Gresham MAX is essentially water under the bridge–the line is up and running and could only be adjusted at this point.
And talk about the Cold War? How did that get in here? Kennedy and Johnson (successive Democrat Presidents) spent far more on the VietNam debacle, a nuclear and strategic arms race and federal highway construction–adjusted for inflation–than Bush has spent in Iraq.
But back to the Streetcar. I’m not unfavorable to the Eastside investment. This would be a good starting point to bringing Streetcar down to Milwaukie and on to Oreogn City, thus saving a few Billion Dollars (US, NAU or whatever). I just hope that developing a thriving Eastside neighborhood via the SC isn’t simply a prelude to the horrendously expensive goal of removing the I-5 and Marquam Bridge, which, when combined with an expanded Columbia River Crossing will funnel up to twice as much traffic through Central Portland.
After all, “You Can’t Build Your Way Out of Congestion.”
Where exactly is the money going to come from to provide continued operations for all this stuff?
Some will come from TriMet (possibly be redirecting some service hours). Most will come from the City of Portland from parking revenues.
It does little if anything to help reduce congestion, zero to help reduce highway use (and thus little reduction in the demand of “foreign oil”).
The Streetcar Loop will help produce an extra 3,400 housing units on the east side (Lloyd District and Central Eastside). If those same 3,400 housing units were built at the edge of the region they would have twice the carbon footprint and would indeed contribute to highway use and congestion. Streetcar helps a lot!
The Streetcar Loop will help produce an extra 3,400 housing units on the east side (Lloyd District and Central Eastside). If those same 3,400 housing units were built at the edge of the region they would have twice the carbon footprint and would indeed contribute to highway use and congestion. Streetcar helps a lot!
But that is 3,400 housing units in addition to what we already have – 1+1 does not equal 0, unless it is -1+1 – but to suggest that any of Portland’s new housing developments are “zero-footprint” is, well, laughable.
I would buy your argument slightly, if the 3,400 housing units were occupied by people who already live in Portland and work in the area, but are forced to live in other parts of the area due to cheaper housing. But the new housing developments are full of out-of-towners that are adding to Portland’s population – and thus adding to Portland’s carbon footprint, not decreasing it. Further, because downtown housing has become so populated and expensive it requires more service workers (read: unable to afford downtown housing) to commute into downtown from outer regions (read: more pollution/congestion).
Does that make sense?
Now, these low paid service workers that are living in North Portland and Gresham and Milwaukie and Oregon City – just how is the Streetcar going to help them? They can’t use it to get to work, and based upon your statement:
Some will come from TriMet (possibly be redirecting some service hours).
You are even admitting so much that TriMet is going to continue it’s policy of disinvestment in bus service making it even more imperative that they OWN A CAR due to bus service cutbacks.
So really, the Streetcar is once again called a “transportation” project when it is really nothing more than a developer’s and rich-boy’s subsidy downtown. Those who must work downtown but cannot afford $300K+ condos will continue to live where it is less expensive and continue to drive into work, to serve those who have the money to live downtown.
And once again, it’s the dedicated riders of TriMet’s bus system that will pay for this.
but to suggest that any of Portland’s new housing developments are “zero-footprint” is, well, laughable.
It would be laughable, if I had said it. What I said is that a unit along the Streetcar alignment has half the carbon footprint of a unit at the edge of the region.
But the new housing developments are full of out-of-towners that are adding to Portland’s population – and thus adding to Portland’s carbon footprint, not decreasing it.
You can’t just think about Portland, you have to look at the whole region. Whether we build Streetcar or not, the growth rate for the region is not going to change (the out-of-towners are coming one way or the other). What we can change is the pattern of development in which they are housed.
(Warning: rant mode on!)
Some will come from TriMet (possibly be redirecting some service hours). Most will come from the City of Portland from parking revenues.
On the latter: Will they do this by adding 24/7 Parking meters in Downtown, Lloyd District, and Hawthorne Blvd.? I had a long-gone personal opinion page on an old personal website, where I questioned why people who probably have to drive downtown are paying for something they’re probably not going to use even if we paid them.
On the earlier: Many times the reallocated service hours come from “Low-performing Lines.” Page 66 of TriMet’s FY 2008 TIP states that “Lines with ridership productivity less than one-half the system average are classified as low performing.” Page 12 of the TIP says they review routes with less than 15 boarding rides per vehicle hour. According to the second page of the system productivity chart on page 95 (hmm… 95…), those routes – and where they run – are:
41-Tacoma (14 BR/VH) – partial replacement for Sellwood portion of old 40-Tacoma, when the Sellwood Bridge closed to buses.
28-Linwood (14 BR/VH) – Local M-F Milwaukie service
39-Lewis & Clark (14 BR/VH) – Formerly ran between Lewis & Clark College and Burlingame, now runs to Beaverton-Hillsdale Hwy. and Sunset Blvd. at the top of the hill.
25-Glisan (14 BR/VH) – Local M-F service on Glisan St. between Gateway TC and 188th Ave. in Rockwood.
86-Alderwood (13 BR/VH) – (Listed as #87 in TIP) Rush-hour M-F service to industrial area south of PDX.
23-San Rafael (13 BR/VH) – Local M-F service in outer NE Portland.
36-South Shore (12 BR/VH) – some rush-hour M-F runs between Lake Oswego and Portland, local M-F service in Lake Oswego.
63-Washington Park (12 BR/VH) – 7 day/wk. bus between downtown and the zoo.
156-Mather Rd. (12 BR/VH) – local service in Sunnyside area of Clackamas Co.
18-Hillside (11 BR/VH) – rush-hour M-F local service between downtown and some of the West Hills.
59-Walker Rd. (11 BR/VH) – local service on Walker Rd. and Park Wy. in Washington Co.
154-Willamette (10 BR/VH) – local M-F service to S. West Linn.
157-Happy Valley (10 BR/VH) – Local M-Sat. service between Happy Valley and Clackamas Transit Center.
37-Lake Grove (10 BR/VH) – Local M-F service on Boones Ferry Rd. and Country Club Rd. in Lake Oswego.
27-Market/Main (9 BR/VH) – Local M-F service in outer SE Portland. The schedule on this has been cut back to daytime service every 75 minutes!
60-Leahy Rd. (8 BR/VH) – Rush-Hour M-F local service in Washington Co.
84-Kelso/Boring (7 BR/VH) – Rush-Hour M-F rural service to Kelso and Boring.
153-South End Rd. (5 BR/VH) – (listed as #79 in TIP) – M-F rural service around Oregon City.
My reason for clogging this thread with this information is to show where these “low performing” routes are. Only line 41 is anywhere near the streetcar loop. The rest are services in other communities in the metro area that are nowhere near the immediate area the streetcar loop would benefit.
One other thing I’d like to mention is the notion of adding a streetcar in an area to increase property values (and increase the property taxes collected after the abatements go away) – much of the area is industrial, and one of the reasons they’re there because it’s relatively cheap. People going to/from have excellent transit options via existing bus routes. There should be no stigma or shame in riding a bus to and from work, just a misconception that can be handled similar to the way Toastmasters handles speaking in front of groups.
Throw in a streetcar – well the businesses there will probably leave when their property taxes go up and/or they get unbelievable offers from developers, and head out to areas with little or absolutely no transit options, giving those workers no choice but to pay whatever amount big oil feels like charging this week. Wait a minute… wouldn’t it be insane if this is the ploy?
(Rant mode off. Thanks for reading!)
There is no agreement yet on what service changes would be involved. For budget purposes it was demonstrated that terminating the #6 at Rose Quarter (completing the route into downtown on Streetcar) would provide sufficient savings, but City Council was not thrilled with that configuration and other possibilities are still being explored. It would not be politically palatable to remove service in some area unrelated to the new Streetcar service.
Likewise the parking plan is not yet worked out and will probably have different components in different areas. Again for budgetary purposes only, simply raising the parking meter rates in Lloyd District to a level closer to downtown would provide enough revenue.
For purposes of the Federal application it was necessary to show how we COULD pay for operations, not how we WOULD. We have several years to work that out yet.
And as for property values and displacement, the industrial sanctuary is protected by zoning, you won’t see the warehouses turning into condos. But you WILL see lots of redevelopment on MLK/Grand, which are zoned for mixed use.
Chris says
“It would be laughable, if I had said it. What I said is that a unit along the Streetcar alignment has half the carbon footprint of a unit at the edge of the region.”
I am not sure where you obtain your comparison figures. Until I worked on some condo units in the Pearl I would probably have agreed with you. Do we have an accurate analysis anywhere? A drafty, poorly insulated, older substandard “unit”
could use a lot of energy. However, modern “units” don’t have much imsulation either, and if they have high ceilings (the building I worked on had anywhere from 10 ft hight to twelve ft,) the heat collects at the ceiling, so the occupants will use more energy. Wealthier people may leave the heat on all day–a big energy waster. These new condos don’t have a lot of insulation to begin with and they have lots of glass; they have concrete floors wirh very little R value. They are very airtight, but this may lead to low humidity and a desire to crack the window(s) open.
A good carbon footprint calculator takes the total lifestyle of a person into account. For example a new car from overseas requires much more fuel to bring on the water than one from Detroit. Do you work in a temperature controlled environment? Or outside with none? If you work at home you may be using a lot of energy if you keep your home heated all day.
I would like to see some accurate evaluations of the energy consumptiom in new condos. I’m sure it is going to be consdirably less than a big drafty older home in NE Portland. Less than an apartment on 82nd Ave? Probably not.
Ron, the carbon footprint difference is not so much about dwelling efficiency differences, but rather about smaller dwellings (and multifamily which is more efficient because of shared walls, systems, etc.) and very different mobility patterns by the occupants.
Chris said
And as for property values and displacement, the industrial sanctuary is protected by zoning, you won’t see the warehouses turning into condos. But you WILL see lots of redevelopment on MLK/Grand, which are zoned for mixed use.
That you put WILL in uppercase suggests a certainty that the development will come. I understand that much of the detailed discussions happen behind the scenes. OTOH, I think it would help if you provided some hints about what’s going on, that leads you to that certainty.
From what I’ve read about the existing streetcar, it was developed quite synergistically with the Pearl development, with people like Homer Williams involved from the get-go.
Moreover (as we’ve discussed many times here) the line connects a lot of important destinations, from Good Sam to OHSU with downtown and PSU in between. In that sense, the Pearl is “infill” on a grand scale.
For all I like streetcars, I must say I’m a bit skeptical about the Eastside project. It’s one thing to say “mixed-use zoning”, and another to know that mixed-use development WILL occur. And since everything is industrial from MLK to the river, and most everything is industrial for some distance east of Grand, the development would be along a narrow strip.
Is there real reason to think the Streetcar would help the Rose Quarter “be all that it can be”? Theoretically the Rose Garden and the Convention Center were supposed to do that, right?
Yet it didn’t really happen, so how would the Streetcar make a difference? For example, will the developers finally step up and build that hotel on their own, or will the public still be expected to pay for it?
Chris, please help me understand why I shouldn’t be skeptical.
Mike
The uppercase “WILL” was in contrast to the “will not” (destruction of the industrial sanctuary).
But there is a development plan being put together as part of the process and I’m confident we’ll see lots of development. Not sure it will be Rose Quarter focused. Lloyd Crossing area will likely see more impact. Streetcar just skirts the Rose Quarter. It could help redevelopment of the school district HQ.
I think Chris eloquently describes the whole point of street cars, ITS ABOUT ZONING and changing the demographics of PORTLAND, virtually nothing to do with transit.
And as Mr Barbour points out, the people that will pay for all of this are the ones that live on “low performing lines” who will lose service completely so that Portland can continue its urban renewal policies.
And meanwhile the rest of us are forced to drive because we can’t even get in the max due to overcrowding.
And as far as operating revenue for all of this, hell, the city leaders of Portland will just raise our taxes again, business as usual in America’s Beirut.
Portland Orygon, land of the weirdo’s.
Understood, Chris. Smaller units and multifamily construction do increase energy effciency and transportation choices are an important factor. But, like I say, volitional lifestyle choices are a big factor, too. What about intraday business travel? In the 1980’s “successful” people engaged in “conspicuous consumption.” Is it going to be different today?
But, on the whole, I think a renewal project on the Eastside would be a good thing, and hope that the historic buildings can be preserved and the underused land developed into something akin to the Pearl District.
“America’s Beirut”
Al, Please explain what that means.
I believe GHW Bush coined that term after an unfriendly reception here during a public event. (the implication being that a U.S. President would not have been warmly received in Lebanon in the 1980s) Is that what you are referring to, Al? I’m unclear how that is an apt analogy for a streetcar. But if it is, Al, please elaborate.
Or, are we going to see a major UN installation constructed here in the coming years? A civil war? A bombing campaign by an unfriendly neighboring nation? An major increase in political influence by militant Islamic groups? Help me out here, Al.
The term ‘Beirut’ refers to MAYHEM.
As in the government of Portland is basically mayhem.
What is regrettably laughable is that with all the manipulation of bus service and proposed development opportunities to pump up the ridership numbers, snail rail is still not cost effective and still requires hoards of funding subsidies from TriMet and the City. If the streetcar was cost effective fares would cover the costs of service. Erik is correct in calling it a “developer’s and rich-boy’s subsidy downtown.” Suggesting the streetcar alone will add 3,400 housing units is all deceptive rhetorical propaganda. If that was the case, the costs of those housing units must then be part of the upfront streetcar costs. They are not! The housing will be added mostly due to socialistic city policies and zoning, and taxpayer subsidized incentives such as property tax abatements which also ought to be considered part as of the streetcar costs.
Furthermore, adding snail rail to the Broadway Bridge, MLK and Grand Avenues will only increase congestion on those thoroughfares. This is disgustingly demonstrated by the reconfiguration of the streetcar alignment near the convention center where the sidewalk is proposed to be cut back so the streetcar has its own lane. Adding to congestion so a full sized Lionel train set can be wedged in on a high traffic arterial is just the opposite of being cost effective.
In conclusion, it is obvious Congressman Blumenauer and other supporters in Washington DC pulled some strings to get this funding. The Bush Administration however is absolutely correct with the mandate to prove the cost effectiveness of to get the motorist paid tax dollars from the Federal Highway Trust Fund to finance this Adams frill that will undoubtedly only serve as transport for less than one percent of people in Portland. To make the streetcar even appear cost effective, a whole lot of manipulation, fabrication and falsification of the numbers must occur.
I’ve got nothing against street cars or light rail. They both are great!
What worries me is that TRIMET is over extending itself without the proper sources of funding to sustain all this growth.
And that will trickle down in budget shortfalls and passenger service cutbacks eventually.
They can’t even afford ladders for our maintenance workers!
They are operating a “big city” transit system but thinking like Portland is still some sort of Podunk cow town.
IMO, they should be perfecting what they have now, BEFORE adding any new service, and there is a lot that needs to be improved.
If you live in Portland proper, Trimet is the greatest thing since white bread.
If you live outside Portland, don’t give up your car anytime soon.
(ps: frequent service IS NOT 15 minute service, frequent service is 8 minutes headways or less!)
“For example a new car from overseas requires much more fuel to bring on the water than one from Detroit.”
This isn’t true on the very basic level, but is even less true once you look at all the details. Shipping something from China to Portland (by boat) is less carbon intensive than getting it from the east coast by train, and also less energy intensive than getting it from Idaho by truck.
But many of the sub-components of automobiles come from Asia anyways, so shipping them from China, to Detroit to be assembled, and then back to Portland is always going to be more energy intensive than shipping it from China to Japan to be assembled and then to Portland… And Detroit uses far more energy inefficient methods than the Japanese do too, Detroit, (Ford in particular, but GM as well,) relies on a “just in time delivery system” that involves using helicopters when the freeways are jammed up at rush hour to move critical parts. Honda and Toyota don’t do that, they have a big warehouse on site full of parts…
I found this in the Virginian-Pilot, the local paper near Norfolk Va. There, the people have just approved a light rail line. I’m going to quote a bit of it and comment after the quote; the full story is at
hamptonroads.com/node/443621
Norfolk says light rail’s benefits already rolling in
Posted to: Transportation and Traffic
By Jennifer Jiggetts
The Virginian-Pilot
© December 6, 2007
The first shovel of dirt has not been turned, yet light rail already has helped generate more than $220 million in planned office, retail, apartment and hotel development downtown.
Developers of three projects – Wachovia Center, Belmont at Freemason apartments and a Residence Inn – said the city’s starter light rail influenced their business decisions. Having modern transit within a short walking distance delivers a steady stream of potential customers and provides an alternative to driving for residents and workers, they said.
I read the full story, which was followed by the usual blogging back and forth between supporters and nay-sayers.
The story doesn’t say, or imply, that these developers are receiving any TIF or other tax benefits or other subsidy to build their projects. That is, apparently the light rail itself is enough to spur development.
Bringing it back to the Portland Eastside project and all that mixed-use development which Chris refers to. Will those developers fund it themselves, or must they get incentives or subsidies over and above the streetcar line itself?
I would certainly hope so. In Norfolk, light rail is as yet unbuilt and thus completely unproven, but developers are already coming forward without public financing. In Portland, where MAX and Streetcar are already very successful, one would think the developers would need no more incentive.
Chris, what’s the answer here?
Mike
said Chris
The uppercase “WILL” was in contrast to the “will not” (destruction of the industrial sanctuary).
OK.
But there is a development plan being put together as part of the process and I’m confident we’ll see lots of development. Not sure it will be Rose Quarter focused. Lloyd Crossing area will likely see more impact. Streetcar just skirts the Rose Quarter. It could help redevelopment of the school district HQ.
But not long ago, someone on this blog was justifying the Broadway Bridge crossing because it took the line past the convention center and Rose Garden, and all those ratty stores, hotels, and restaurants nearby.
The public has made a very large investment in the convention center, on the promise of big-time redevelopment there. Yet it’s still a grim and unattractive neighborhood with very little to commend it. The MAX runs right through the area already.
I’m chairing a mid-sized conference here in October. In looking for a venue, we got a bid from a hotel in that neighborhood (I won’t say which one). I took the MAX over there and walked around, looked in the hotels, and decided there was no way I was bringing my out-of-town colleagues to that part of town. Portland’s a nice city, but you’d never know it from walking around over there. It’s really shameful.
The downtown hotels either have insufficient meeting space, or are unaffordable, or both. We ended up at University Place, PSU’s hotel at SW 3rd & Lincoln, an attractive hotel in a nice neighborhood.
So Chris, what leads you to think the developers will come running to the Streetcar? Is your confidence well-founded? And why doesn’t the planning include leveraging the Streetcar and the MAX to produce a “convention quarter” this city can be really proud of? Heck, they won’t even build a decent convention hotel there, and want Metro (or someone, anyone but them) to do it.
Once again, I’m not bashing the project, just skeptical. I’m ready to be cured of my skepticism, but I’m not seeing much yet.
Mike
You can’t just think about Portland, you have to look at the whole region. Whether we build Streetcar or not, the growth rate for the region is not going to change (the out-of-towners are coming one way or the other). What we can change is the pattern of development in which they are housed.
Chris, you NAILED IT ON THE HEAD.
I do look at the whole region – how does the Streetcar improve “whole region” transportation? In a nutshell – IT DOESN’T.
You’ve so much as admitted that Portland is going to continue to grow with or without Streetcar, so what is the benefit of the Streetcar? The fact is that while downtown will grow – so will the suburbs. We can change the development patterns with or without Streetcar – we could develop more high density housing while using existing transit systems, as there is still plenty of developable land along current bus and MAX lines.
Is the decision to stop transportation spending altogether except for select projects that do nothing but help line developers’ pockets – or to actually spend transportation dollars on transportation projects?
$50M would go a long way towards improving regional bus service that covers the entire region – by attracting “choice” riders, proving new amenities, improving bus stations and stops, building new transit centers, and making bus service attractive. Instead we’re going to blow all of this money on one project that provides zero transportation improvement.
You’re right, Chris. We do need to look at the region, not just Portland. I’ve been doing that all along by advocating for region-wide transportation projects, including bus system improvements to encourage and grow transit ridership. Look at the example of Seattle and Sound Transit – a 7% increase in King County Metro (bus only) ridership from 2007 to 2006; Sound Transit is reporting double-digit ridership growth on its combined system including frequent commuter service.
In fact with Sound Transit, the one component that had the LOWEST growth was Tacoma Link, it’s downtown “light rail” system (albeit uses the Skoda vehicles) – even though it’s a fare free system.
Even Vancouver, BC has reported double-digit growth just within bus service alone.
How is TriMet doing with their disinvested bus system? Let me remind you, TriMet has had TWO STRAIGHT YEARS OF RIDERSHIP DROPS – never mind more congestion, higher fuel prices, more attention to environmental concerns, etc.
It’s no wonder George Bush likes the Streetcar.
Isn’t SW 3rd & Lincoln still considered downtown? And the streetcar runs just a couple blocks from there… The restaurant in that place was not very good last time I tried it, but there is a really great “hot pot” restaurant right at Lovejoy park on the 2nd ave. pedestrian path.
And I find it really hard to believe that you could not find a place in the other downtown hotels, as our company uses them regularly and they have all sizes and costs in resources for meeting space.
However I would agree that the Convention Center area needs more. We especially need one honkin’ huge hotel (HHH) that is connected via tunnel to the convention center. Something with TONS of rooms and that we can bring big conferences to Portland. And in conjunction with that we should have more restaurants for all of those convention goers to eat at while they are there. (Why on earth did they tear down a restaurant and put in a bank of all things?)
Anyway – that really has not much to do with transit though. But I think a N/S streetcar through that area will help spur some of the development that can help it be a nicer area – as long as we don’t make the same mistakes we made with the Rose Quarter… (Why did they not make some sort of entertainment complex at the Rose Quarter to give people something to do before and after big events, and to keep people going there when there were no events?)
I think I am now rambling.
said John
Isn’t SW 3rd & Lincoln still considered downtown? And the streetcar runs just a couple blocks from there… The restaurant in that place was not very good last time I tried it, but there is a really great “hot pot” restaurant right at Lovejoy park on the 2nd ave. pedestrian path.
Correct on all counts. I meant really downtown, near Pioneer Courthouse Square, etc. But U Place is close enough.
And I find it really hard to believe that you could not find a place in the other downtown hotels, as our company uses them regularly and they have all sizes and costs in resources for meeting space.
Well, our association’s venue-finder schedules 300 conferences a year and puts out a standard RFP. They also work with POVA to find the right list. We ended up with only 4 bids — one unaffordable, one bailed out just before we offered a contract (they had double-booked the meeting rooms that week:-(), one was by the Convention Center in a grim area, and then there was U Place.
It’s a little off-topic, but I mentioned it only to emphasize the Rose Quarter/Convention Center area, and the fact that MAX hasn’t done much to spur development there. And it seems like the streetcar planners are focused mostly on the Inner Eastside area.
In your view, what was the Rose Quarter mistake? I agree with your statement about entertainment — where was the business community to build it? It seems they sometimes fail to take leveraging initiatives of their own, and don’t want to make a move without the city or Metro holding their hand. That’s why I posted that bit about Norfolk — there seems to be a real contrast.
Mike
The problem with the Rose Quarter…cut off from the River by the grain dock…is its isolation from the Convention Center and the balance of the Lloyd District by I-5. The freeway needs to be buried or removed. A great city would have done this and had the front of the Convention Center face the River instead we have loading docks on the river side. Over the buried freeway a broad public garden would link the two facilities.
Portland is a nice, but timid town.
Mike,
I have never heard of a bus line encouraging development. 10 years ago your neighborhood was vacant abandoned rail yards and old warehouses…admittedlly popular with artists. Nothing like the Pearl District has ever happened in Portland, at least since the years after the 1905 L&C Fair. Ask the developers, lenders, condo buyers if Streetcar was a factor? My sense is the the 77 bus is a nuisance at best.
Will Eastside do as well? Projects are already happening in Lloyd and Central Eastside, but since we are now taking a break from the boom times, it may take some time. After SoWa, the close in Eastside will be the next big thing and Streetcar may be just the thing to kindle the fire.
Streetcars do well by virtue of the “ego” phenomena of American culture.
Its the same phenomena as Lexus over Ford.
Ford will get you there at the same time as a Lexus, but no Lexus owner would be caught dead in a Ford.
It makes no sense at all, but since when does American culture with its ego inflated drive for ‘superiority’ of classism make sense?
I’ve said it 1,000 times right here, the people who will ride the streetcar wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus with ‘those people’.
Hence it spurs building and increases property values by its ‘ego appeal’ that the bus 77 doesn’t have.
Complete insanity of American culture.
Said Lenny,
I have never heard of a bus line encouraging development. 10 years ago your neighborhood was vacant abandoned rail yards and old warehouses…admittedly popular with artists. Nothing like the Pearl District has ever happened in Portland, at least since the years after the 1905 L&C Fair. Ask the developers, lenders, condo buyers if Streetcar was a factor? My sense is the the 77 bus is a nuisance at best.
Hmmm. I wasn’t here at the time, so my knowledge comes mostly from reading and talking to people who were here. So my perceptions could be totally off base, but here they are anyway…
OF COURSE the Streetcar was a factor in the Pearl; the relationship between the two might even be called symbiotic. This is apparent from reading these histories and looking at the respective timelines:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_District,_Portland,_Oregon
http://www.hoytstreetproperties.com/pearl_history.html
portlandstreetcar.org/history.php
The wikipedia page has some great before-and-after photos.
The president of one of the major Pearl developers (Hoyt Street) sits on the Streetcar board AND the TriMet board.
The point here is that the main Pearl development and the main Streetcar development happened in parallel. By the time the first Streetcar segment opened – Good Sam to PSU – the Pearl was already boiling along. This doesn’t surprise me at all, since the two were developed hand-in-glove, by design.
I think the same is true of SoWa: the last Streetcar section down there, and the first few buildings, were built at the same time. I was there to hear some of the speeches the day the Streetcar opened, and it was clear that neighborhood was also boiling along.
Will Eastside do as well? Projects are already happening in Lloyd and Central Eastside, but since we are now taking a break from the boom times, it may take some time. After SoWa, the close in Eastside will be the next big thing and Streetcar may be just the thing to kindle the fire.
I hope so, but remain skeptical because I’ve seen no evidence of the planning that would lead to similar parallel development. It may be happening behind the scenes, but I haven’t seen it published.
Please let me know if I’m misinformed here!
Where should I look? The Portland DoT web documents seem to be quite out of date, but Metro’s documentation is a good start. However, it looks like more an analysis of alignment options to convince the Feds, and I didn’t see any firm (or even semi-firm:-)) development plans.
So the potential development looks more like wishful thinking than concrete planning (hmmm – no pun intended:-)). My concern is that we could end up with something more like the convention center than like the Pearl. The city says “if we build it, they will come”, then builds it, and they don’t come. After all, they still haven’t come to the convention center neighborhood, have they?
Mike
I have never heard of a bus line encouraging development.
Wait a second, are we talking about Portland, Oregon?
The City of Roses?
The city that until the mid 1970s had a massive air pollution problem and a downtown that was, in the words of a recent Oregonian article, “the only time you went downtown was to take the kids to SantaLand at Meier & Frank for Christmas”????
The city that made a radical step and built a bus Transit Mall lining 5th and 6th Avenues?
That the single investment spawned numerous development projects and lined the Transit Mall with large office buildings and retail space, AND grew transit ridership significantly – eliminating a years-long decline in transit ridership and put TriMet towards two decades of transit ridership growth?
It made connecting between bus lines easier and more convenient allowing for through service?
In fact, here’s the facts according to http://portlandmall.org
History of the Portland Mall
Portland: the city of transit “firsts”
Here in Portland we have a long tradition of discovering better ways to get from here to there. For example, the nation’s first interurban electric streetcar system began here in 1893, connecting Portland and Oregon City. And the first flight of US airmail service commenced from Portland to Vancouver in 1912.
Just like the rest of the nation, Portland embarked on a post-World War II binge of affordable land and plentiful cars and gas. Transit ridership plummeted from the late 1940s to the 1970s, but those were boom years for air pollution and traffic congestion. Then “the city that works” became one of the first to recover.
1973: Voters reject Mt. Hood Freeway
In late 1973, voters rejected the proposed Mt. Hood Freeway, which would have uprooted neighborhoods along US 26 in the Southeast. The following year, Oregon adopted tough new emissions standards for cars. In downtown Portland, new parking limits combined with the advent of Fareless Square (TriMet’s fare-free zone) to help restore public transit as an attractive choice.
1978: Portland Transit Mall opens
That set the stage for another Portland first: The nation’s first mall with one-way streets intended specifically for mass transit—the Portland Transit Mall, opened in 1978.
It was among the first of its kind in the nation, spanning 22 blocks on 5th and 6th avenues through the high-density office corridor and retail/commercial core of Portland’s City Center. It was to be the symbol of optimal access to a regenerated urban core.
The Mall immediately received international attention as a model for transit and downtown redevelopment. It was recognized for its exceptional design quality and its strategic and operational innovation. Over the next decade, the significance of these attributes was confirmed. For years the Mall was celebrated as a prototype
for redeveloping an urban center using transit as a major catalyst.
That’s right, busses don’t encourage development. It seems to me that they do, when they are properly invested upon. Like what Portland did throughout the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s – until Fred Hansen took over TriMet.
Lenny Anderson Says:
The problem with the Rose Quarter…cut off from the River by the grain dock…is its isolation from the Convention Center and the balance of the Lloyd District by I-5.
I had confused my neighborhoods. The Rose Quarter is pinned between the river and I-5. It does seem hopelessly disconnected from the rest of the city, unless your dream scenario (below) comes to pass.
Rather, I was thinking of that part of the Lloyd District that encompasses the convention center and the streetcar alignment: bounded by I-5 on the west, Broadway on the north, Grand/MLK on the East, and I-84 (in the gulch) on the south.
Officially, the full Lloyd District extends further east, and includes the Rose Quarter down to the river.
For discussion purposes, maybe we should talk about “central Lloyd” or whatever. In any case, it’s this area that (from my reading, anyway) was supposed to see a lot of redevelopment spawned by the convention center. Currently there are some down-at-the-heels chain hotels, fast-food restaurants, and, up on Broadway, furniture stores, car dealers, etc. Where’s the good stuff?
A friend attended a conference at the convention center, and was housed in one of those hotels, and characterized the whole area as “dreary”. I won’t disagree.
Another friend was housed way down at the Jupiter Hotel on Burnside (next to Doug Fir). She was a bit scandalized by the strange goings-on at the Jupiter (a sex-toy shop literally in the midst of the hotel rooms, for example), and did not feel terribly safe walking up to the convention center.
The whole convention-center “experience” is — to say the least — not the most pleasant introduction to this otherwise nice city! But where’s the development that was supposed to come with the center? Will it finally come with the Streetcar? How do we know?
The freeway needs to be buried or removed. A great city would have done this and had the front of the Convention Center face the River instead we have loading docks on the river side. Over the buried freeway a broad public garden would link the two facilities.
Well, I-5 shouldn’t have been built there in the first place, but that was the fashion at the time. Now we are thoroughly addicted to it — 205 and 405 together can’t handle the traffic. A similar problem to the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle.
I don’t think Portland can afford a gargantuan Boston Big-Dig project, which put the Central Artery Freeway in a tunnel under the city. In all the billions they spent on that project, they couldn’t spare a few tens of millions for the rail tunnel that would connect the North and South dead-end rail stations, so Boston still has two un-connected commuter rail networks. We don’t have that problem in Portland (‘course we don’t have a commuter rail network anymore either…).
Portland is a nice, but timid town.
Well, the days are long gone when the Feds would pay 90% of highway-building funds — let alone 80% (I think it was) mass-transit infrastructure funds. So any grand plans have to be cobbled together out of bits and pieces of funding.
It’s thus even more important that the business community be a full player, and not (as in the convention center situation) let the public fund projects and then not deliver on their part of the deal. As far as I can tell, the Pearl (including the Westside Streetcar) really was a public/private endeavor. Will we see the same thing on the Eastside, or will we see another convention center story?
Mike
“Well, I-5 shouldn’t have been built there… Now we are thoroughly addicted to it — 205 and 405 together can’t handle the traffic.”
Mike, I wouldn’t automatically assume that. There are examples of freeway removal that haven’t resulted in the apocalypse. Much of the traffic on an urban freeway could be using a surface street or transit instead. Remember, most of the traffic on I-5 isn’t going through Portland, it’s local trips that make up the bulk of travel.
The article below gives some good examples of freeway removal. I’d like to see I-5 between the I-405 interchanges be either buried or torn out eventually. But not until we have improved our transit and bike/ped infrastructure dramatically.
http://www.planetizen.com/node/23300
The Transit Mall was not a bus line, but all bus lines! And I would guess that there has been more projects along just the one Streetcar line than the Mall ever generated.
MAX started long before Fred Hansen…Interstate MAX was his first project; he also increased the number of Frequent Service lines from four to 14 in a recession and fuel prices were doubling.
re Eastside potential…there is a Lloyd District plan…its part of the Convention Center URA; also the Central Eastside URA has projects and plans for the area south of Sullivan’s Gulch. The Bureau of Planning did a big plan for the Rose Quarter just a few years ago…its on a shelf somewhere. One way to look at vacant lots and parking lots…and there are plenty along the proposed Eastside Loop…is they are waiting for housing/office/retail projects. Right now, Broadway when you come off the bridge is pretty ugly, but all of the Eastside has more grit, less street life (of the positive kind) and busier, less ped friendly arterials. Streetcar will help there as well.
said Lenny
The Bureau of Planning did a big plan for the Rose Quarter just a few years ago…its on a shelf somewhere. One way to look at vacant lots and parking lots…and there are plenty along the proposed Eastside Loop…is they are waiting for housing/office/retail projects.
I hate sounding tiresome and repetitive, but it’s one thing for the Bureau of Planning, or Metro, to draw up plans, and quite another to get the business community to show up to implement those plans. Sure, there are plenty of lots that are ripe for development, but will the developers actually show up? (I repeat — they have not shown up yet for the convention center area.)
Right now, Broadway when you come off the bridge is pretty ugly, but all of the Eastside has more grit, less street life (of the positive kind) and busier, less ped friendly arterials. Streetcar will help there as well.
It will help only if the business community really wants to do it. So far, the only plans I’ve read contain the city’s (and Metro’s) wish lists, not the business community’s commitment to be there when it counts.
As the new guy in town, maybe I’m overly influenced by the extremely slow pace of development around the convention center.
I watched 2 cities — Philly and DC — build new convention centers in the last 10-15 years. Business around the sites had already started to boom the day those centers opened their doors, and has continued to boil along since. In both cities, a big “headquarters hotel” accompanied the center’s construction, along with lots of other hotel development. (I don’t know whether those hotels were publicly or privately funded, but they certainly did happen!)
So those cities are now getting the kind of really big conventions that Portland was supposed to get by expanding the convention center, but isn’t getting because the hotel situation is so inadequate. (At least that’s what’s I’ve read over the last year or so in the O and the Trib.)
That’s all part of the reason for my skepticism.
Mike
Right now, Broadway when you come off the bridge is pretty ugly, but all of the Eastside has more grit, less street life (of the positive kind) and busier, less ped friendly arterials. Streetcar will help there as well
Eastside Neighborhood #1: Morrison/Belmont
Eastside Neighborhood #2: Southeast Hawthorne
Eastside Neighborhood #3: Westmoreland (S.E. Milwaukie Avenue)
Eastside Neighborhood #4: Sellwood (S.E. Tacoma Street & 17th Avenue)
These neighborhoods are busy, bustling, full of pedestrians, very desirable neighborhoods with high housing values, all on the eastside, accessible by some of Portland’s busiest bus lines…
he also increased the number of Frequent Service lines from four to 14 in a recession and fuel prices were doubling.
Well, we’re entering a new recession so I fully expect a doubling of Frequent Service bus lines to 28 within the next year and a half.
I’m not holding my breath for it, given that his Transit Investment Plan calls for no increase in the bus fleet (unlike every other transit district, including those that are rapidly building rail lines like Seattle and Vancouver, BC – both of whom are continuing to ADD new busses to ADD new service.)
“The article below gives some good examples of freeway removal. I’d like to see I-5 between the I-405 interchanges be either buried or torn out eventually. But not until we have improved our transit and bike/ped infrastructure dramatically.”
Off topic but: Can we bury I-405 today? For instance, the block between Morrison and Yamhill would could probably be a profitable development site, even after the weird construction issues on that block, (not allowed to have a basement, and having to have all the supports on the end of the building.) Likewise there are another 10 of so blocks that would be equally simple to build on. And if you can deal with a freeway ramp on one side of the building, there are another 10 or so. There would be a noise/vibration issue, but it is as solvable for the building above the freeway as the ones next to it. The only question is, would ODOT approve?
Same thing with I-5 for the couple miles between Going and Lombard, except the land value isn’t as high, so it might not be cost effective…
I misspoke..I should have said “Inner Eastside,” where the Streetcar is proposed, I did not mean all the old streetcar commerical streets that are booming and are served by FS buses.
And yes, plans are just that. With the I-5 berm I would not expect much to be built in the Rose Quarter, but an office tower has been approved for a vacant lot right next to I-5 across from the CC! A condo tower may be built at Grand and Holladay; we’ll see if more investors will jump the River, but the Streetcar can only help. And property owners are putting up some serious bucks.
On my bike ride home I thought the Lloyd Doubletree hotel would be the best hotel option on the Eastside…less than 30 minutes from PDX via the Red Line; next to a public park; across the street from the Lloyd MAX station and from Macy’s and the Lloyd Center; an easy MAX ride to the CC, etc. Did you check it out?
Lenny said
And yes, plans are just that. With the I-5 berm I would not expect much to be built in the Rose Quarter, but an office tower has been approved for a vacant lot right next to I-5 across from the CC!
Hmmm – how will an office tower improve the attractiveness of Portland for conventions?
A condo tower may be built at Grand and Holladay; we’ll see if more investors will jump the River, but the Streetcar can only help.
It’s unclear to me why the Streetcar will infuse development into the CC area, when the investors haven’t been willing to jump the river already. After all, they’ve got the CC, with MAX running right by it.
And property owners are putting up some serious bucks.
Is there anything on the web that describes the serious bucks?
On my bike ride home I thought the Lloyd Doubletree hotel would be the best hotel option on the Eastside…less than 30 minutes from PDX via the Red Line; next to a public park; across the street from the Lloyd MAX station and from Macy’s and the Lloyd Center; an easy MAX ride to the CC, etc. Did you check it out?
I assume you mean for my conference. Sigh. Deep sigh.
Not only did we check it out, but we chose it. Then our venue-finder (at the association HQ in NYC) notified them, and was finishing up the contract for them to sign when she got a call from their event manager saying “Ummm, sorry, but we screwed up and double-booked all the meeting space for that week, and the other guys were first, so we have to back out of the deal. Can you change your date?”
This was 16 months before the conference; for many other reasons, we were locked into the date, so we took U Place, which was a close second to the DoubleTree. Not as convenient to reach from the Airport, but pretty nice once you get to the hotel. I think the food’s not as good as the DoubleTree, but there are more restaurants nearby, on the PSU side and a streetcar stop away at River Place.
From what I can tell, the DoubleTree is the only decent hotel in the CC neighborhood.
(Interestingly, U Place used to be a DoubleTree before PSU took it over. The takeover was met with objections from the hotel industry, which didn’t like the competition from a hotel run by a state univ. That seems to have calmed down now.)
Mike
Streetcar has been more effective in attracting investment than MAX has, or so it seems.
Local share of the Streetcar Loop local funding has an LID, Local Improvement District, piece; not sure how much it is but Chris knows. Its in the millions.
What do you suggest the Center Eastside/Lloyd needs to get on the development bandwagon, which is slowing as we speak. If not Streetcar, what?
Both areas have had URAs for almost 20 years, and are not entirely dead…check out Rejuvenation down on Grand and all the home renovation retail down there. New HQs are located in the Hoffman building under I-5; Beam has done a couple of projects in CEID; also ClarkLewis offers some of the best eats in town down on Water Avenue. Grand Avenue has some fine old architecture. I could go on.
Lenny said
Local share of the Streetcar Loop local funding has an LID, Local Improvement District, piece; not sure how much it is but Chris knows. Its in the millions.
Well, it’s reassuring that the businesses along the loop have signed up to help finance it.
What do you suggest the Center Eastside/Lloyd needs to get on the development bandwagon, which is slowing as we speak. If not Streetcar, what?
Well, I don’t know, I’m puzzled.
As I’ve said a few times here, my concern is the north end of that loop, namely the Lloyd area near the convention center (CC). From the CC stories over the last year — mostly regarding the (lack of a) headquarters hotel, but also on the (lack of) other amenities in the area — I gather that the city (or Metro, whatever) built the center “on spec” (so to speak), investing public money in the hope that CC-related development would follow.
Yet development did not follow. We have no world-class convention hotel in that district, and not much else either. And the press stories indicate that we’ll only get the hotel if Metro finances it, too. So my concern is that we’ll do the streetcar through that neighborhood “on spec” too, with (apparently) no real commitment from the business community to help turn it into a convention district that’s worthy of a great city.
Your writing about a new office building across from the CC doesn’t ease the concern. Where are the eateries, clubs, hotels, shops, and other amenities that ought to surround a great convention center? It’s hard to see how building a Streetcar there will necessarily make a difference — the CC itself was supposed to stimulate the development.
Both areas have had URAs for almost 20 years, and are not entirely dead…check out Rejuvenation down on Grand and all the home renovation retail down there. New HQs are located in the Hoffman building under I-5; Beam has done a couple of projects in CEID; also ClarkLewis offers some of the best eats in town down on Water Avenue. Grand Avenue has some fine old architecture. I could go on.
Yes, maybe the Streetcar will help the continued improvement of the Grand/MLK couplet below Burnside. It could turn the area into a destination business street. But what about that north end of the loop? I have no idea what will cause more development there — supposedly the CC was going to be enough to do that. Why was it not enough?
One CC story advanced the hypothesis that the mainstream hotel industry has undermined that headquarters hotel simply because they don’t want the competition. Do you think that’s true?
Meanwhile, according to those stories, the really big conventions (with attendance way up in the thousands) are avoiding Portland because of poor hotel accommodations. If those conventions came here, there would be plenty of business to go around, even with a big CC hotel that would have maybe 1000 rooms. So the industry is cutting off its nose to spite its face.
I don’t get it. But I don’t see how a Streetcar will magically make them do it. If the Streetcar planners think (or know) otherwise, I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they told us they had it in writing.
Mike
Mike –
I share many of your concerns about development (although Liberty Centre was a post-MAX development in that area and there was a marked increase of ridership at the otherwise underutilized 7th Ave. station, plus the small condo project nearby), but I’ve been to many, many convention centers around the country over the years and few of them I would characterize as having clubs/shops/amenities nearby. They tend to be pretty isolated affairs, with the possible exception of the Las Vegas area convention spaces, but even those are tied directly to a hotel with an ownership/management stake.
Seattle’s Washington State Convention Center is doing quite well.
It’s also smack downtown, with lots of bus service, and no Streetcar service. Lots of hotels nearby, too…
Bob R. said
I’ve been to many, many convention centers around the country over the years and few of them I would characterize as having clubs/shops/amenities nearby. They tend to be pretty isolated affairs, with the possible exception of the Las Vegas area convention spaces, but even those are tied directly to a hotel with an ownership/management stake.
and Erik Halstead Says:
Seattle’s Washington State Convention Center is doing quite well.
It’s also smack downtown, with lots of bus service, and no Streetcar service. Lots of hotels nearby, too…
The two I’m familiar with are Philadelphia and Washington, DC.
Philly’s CC was isolated out on the U. Penn campus for decades. Then about 10 years ago, they built a new one, largely on air rights over the old railroad viaduct, smack in the middle of town. A big new headquarters hotel is right next door, with direct connections to the center. The CC was built with public money; I don’t know who funded the hotel, but it’s a nice place run by Marriott — I stayed there.
DC had a big downtown convention center, but after 20 years or so, was losing the big meetings because it wasn’t large enough. So they built an even larger one, 2 blocks from the old one. There were already some headquarters-size hotels, that were built near the old center, so I don’t know whether they built new ones. But within a block are a large Renaissance Hotel and a large Embassy Suites.
My concern with the PDX CC is that apparently, the city and Metro either built the CC with “wishful thinking” about development, or sincerely thought the development would come but were blind-sided when it didn’t materialize.
With that much public money at risk, there shouldn’t be any surprises after the fact. If the hotel developers didn’t want to build a big hotel next to the CC, that fact should have been known up front, before the CC was built, and again before it was expanded. So now PDX has a nice big CC with no decent places to put the people who come.
This is based on recollections from the O and Trib stories. Have I correctly summarized the state of things?
How does this relate to the Streetcar? Well, how solid is the development commitment? Or will there be unpleasant surprises again?
Mike
Seattle’s Washington State Convention Center is doing quite well. It’s also smack downtown, with lots of bus service, and no Streetcar service. Lots of hotels nearby, too…
You are correct that the WSCTC *is* smack downtown, with lots of bus service (the tunnel is right there, with light rail on the way next year, plus all the Pike/Pine routes). However, from the WSCTC at 7th & Pike, one only needs to walk 2 blocks down, and 2 blocks over to hit the southern end of the new streetcar line at Olive & Westlake.
I would argue that the OCC is definitely *not* downtown, which is part of the problem of the lack of amenities. I’m a streetcar fan, but I’m not sure the eastside line alone is going to make huge improvements in that area. However, it sure couldn’t hurt.
said lurker b
I would argue that the OCC is definitely *not* downtown, which is part of the problem of the lack of amenities.
Well, I only moved here 18 months ago from the East, so my knowledge of the history is from reading the on-and-off saga of the Headquarters Hotel, in the O and the Trib.
Of course the OCC isn’t downtown — that’s obvious. I guess there’s not much land in Portland’s compact built-up downtown, so they put it on the Eastside.
As I read the press stories, the expectation was that development would follow, extending the Lloyd Center area westward to provide amenities for the area and for convention visitors. Yet it didn’t happen? Nobody seems to have a good explanation why not.
So the city (well, Metro, I guess) seemingly got burned on the OCC — building it and then extending it, and still the developers didn’t show up to finish the neighborhood. So what’s the guarantee that if the city puts in that Streetcar, they won’t get burned again?
I’m also a Streetcar fan, and moved into the Pearl in part because of the Westside one. The Westside Streetcar was conceived hand-in-glove with the Pearl developers. What about the Eastside one (and especially the northern end around Broadway and OCC)? Is the developer enthusiasm a sure thing, or wishful thinking?
Mike
Last Saturday I took a trip to Tacoma and spent a lot of time on Tacoma’s Streetcar (they call it Tacoma Link Light Rail) system from Freighthouse Square to the Theater District.
Of course it helped that I arrived and left on Amtrak, my only purpose was to hang out downtown, and the Streetcar was free. While I did use it, I also did a lot of walking.
What I found is that development patterns did not necessarily mesh with the Streetcar route. While the Union Station area was very nicely developed, it was developed by properties that provide no tax dollars – the University of Washington Tacoma Campus, the U.S. Federal Courthouse (in the former Union Station building), the Washington State Historical Society museum, and the Tacoma Art Museum.
The Greater Tacoma Convention Center was located just to the north.
The Theater District and Convention Center stops were lined with buildings that did not open to the Streetcar route – in fact one example was the old Woolworths Building – the old storefront facade was replaced by an overhead vehicle door, exhaust vents for either a diesel generator or a HVAC system, and a bunch of bricked-up windows. Several buildings have been removed and replaced by parking lots, with the old walls remaining as a shell to what used to be.
At the South 25th stop, there is virtually nothing there – empty lots, a gas station and a carwash.
The Tacoma Dome/Freighthouse Square station is nice – it is a true transportation hub, with a large bus stop, the Streetcar, and access to the Sounder commuter rail line to Seattle. Freighthouse Square is a “shopping mall” akin to the Skidmore Fountain building or the lower levels of Pike Place Market, with small vendor style spaces. However, Sounder service is weekday rushhour only – however there is frequent, all day, seven-day-a-week express bus service to Seattle – and the Amtrak station is three blocks away. There is also an 8,000 space park and ride lot there.
Much of the real development in Tacoma is not along the Streetcar line, but along the Foss Waterway – while a short walk from the Streetcar (using the Chihuly Bridge of Glass) it is still NOT on the Streetcar Line. It is separated by a four-track BNSF mainline and the I-705 freeway spur.
Despite the Streetcar’s free fare system, ridership was mixed. Only a couple of trains did I see or ride have substantial ridership; most trains had less than 10 people onboard.
The Tacoma Link streetcar line has been in service since 2003, and yet over four years later there is substantial development gaps; with most development serving government functions rather than increasing property tax revenues. At a final $80.4M price tag, it cost more than $40M a mile to construct, and arguably costs more per passenger to operate than a bus (in part because there is no fare). At $3.7M a year to operate, with 848,000 riders, the cost is $4.36 a rider.
The average bus operating cost for TriMet is less than half that ($1.94) – including the hidden subsidy that TriMet bus riders pay to subsidize high cost express busses, park-and-ride lots that are free to its users, and the depreciation cost that is raided to subsidize MAX instead of used to replace worn out busses.
While the Streetcar served my needs quite well for a period of eight hours that I was in the city, limited to the downtown area by choice (then again the entire trip was purely by choice) I would have little reason to believe that the Streetcar makes a considerable dent towards actual traffic patterns in Seattle, save for UW students who commute from outside of Tacoma or use the Freighthouse Square parking garage (free parking) and ride the Streetcar two stops.
It should also be noted that Streetcar stops are located about 2,000 to 2,500 feet apart – far greater distances than in Portland, where the Streetcar stops are as little as two blocks (about 500 feet) apart.