Gresham Police to Ride MAX


I don’t generally post over the weekend, but as this story keeps evolving…

As reported in the Oregonian, Mayor Shane Bemis of Gresham will detail officers from his city’s police force to ride MAX.

While a TriMet spokesperson is quoted as welcoming the move, the Mayor cites “TriMet’s failure to realize they have issues.”

In breaking news over the weekend, a 71-year-old man was beaten by a youth at a Gresham MAX station. According to the Oregonian, the youth is a suspected gang member and was arrested by Gresham police.

[UPDATE 5:31PM – B.R.]

TriMet has issued a news release today. The text of the release is also posted in the comments, below.


105 responses to “Gresham Police to Ride MAX”

  1. I thought MAX was a perfectly safe mode of transportation.

    I thought that crime was no more prevalent around the MAX line in Gresham than in other parts of town; in fact I believe when I pointed out Gresham’s own crime statistics from their website, I was essentially “shouted down” by the MAX advocates that refuse to accept any criticism of their beloved choo-choo train.

    Now, there have been THREE high-profile criminal incidents involving MAX – two in Gresham – and Gresham’s mayor goes ON THE RECORD and on the FRONT PAGE of THE SUNDAY OREGONIAN stating he has to do something.

    If MAX was so safe, why would the Mayor of OREGON’S FOURTH LARGEST CITY, and PORTLAND’S LARGEST SUBURB dispute it on the front cover of OREGON’S (and Southwest Washington’s) LARGEST NEWSPAPER?

    I fully expect that Ross and some of the other folks here will write a commentary in The Oregonian to rebut the Mayor of Gresham and to state that he is overreacting to an inaccurate stereotype or perception that simply does not exist.

    I also expect a follow-up commentary for each criminal act that is widely covered in Portland’s news media, to criticize the news media for harping on these “isolated incidents” as if the MAX system was something out of the 1970s/1980s era New York City subway system.

  2. Apparently the kid who did the beating lives in Gresham and was known to the Gresham police. How does this make it a MAX problem? MAX has been serving those neighborhoods for over 20 years.

    The Mayor, in fact, blames it on “gentrification”. The fact is that Gresham now has the major concentrations of poverty that have been associated with inner-city neighborhoods. That is hardly unique to the Portland region, the same pattern is happening elsewhere in the country with aging suburban neighborhoods.

    The real question is how to reduce the concentrations of poverty and deal with the issues that are created where it exists. That includes assaults like the one described here.

  3. It is no surprise the Gresham Police force will be riding Max and increasing patrols around Max stations. In Vancouver BC, SkyTrain, the equivalent of Max in Portland, has had to hire armed guards to protect passengers at stations and on the train. Even with the guards, many people including men do not feel safe, especially when using the outlying stations after dark. Unless TriMet hires its own guards, it is only a matter of time before Portland Police and Hillsboro Police will also be riding Max, possibly the streetcars too. A person only has to consider all the problems that have occurred around the Lloyd Center Station, the 82nd Avenue Station and some of the stations on the Westside line to understand the reasons why.

  4. Erik, is your argument that MAX shuttles criminals around, or that MAX creates a place where potential victims are standing around at night, or what? And what sort of solution would you propose?

  5. Closing/restricting access to platforms, increasing fare compliance, and removing the “honor system,” would significantly reduce the criminal element on the trains.

    Of course, a plan like this would be expensive and politically unpopular. We might need to put off the twice-voted-down Milwauke expansion to pay for it. We may even need to increase light rail fares to reflect the fact that it is a premium service.

  6. HOORAY for the mayor of Gresham! Somebody finally takes charge of the situation appropriately.

    “The real question is how to reduce the concentrations of poverty and deal with the issues that are created where it exists.”

    I don’t think anyone can dispute the above statement. Poverty leads to anti social behavior, and poverty also forces people to use public transport, simply because they have no other option. That makes public transport an obvious first place to start for policing efforts. Public transit need to be safe for everybody, and that means a clear and obvious presence by law enforcement.

    I had somebody on my bus the other day, and I really wanted to videotape her especially for this group. This young lady, around 21 or so, was so terrified at the prospect of having to get off at the Willow Creek Transit Center that she had to move her residence! She had been threatened, bullied, and suffered endless harassment from the thugs that hang out there. I can’t put into words the terror she felt at the thought of being at the Willow Creek Transit Center.

    The fare less square system does not do anything to help alleviate this problem either. The”feel good” 70’s era fare less square idea is an idea that needs to be abandoned along with the old transit mall.

    In previous discussions I and the police sergeant were derided for not being “objective” in our views about security on max and max stations.

    What you folks don’t seem to understand is, I LIVE HERE! My life exists as part of the transit system. Most all of you other folks are just visitors. You make your roundtrip once a day and that’s it, most of the time during commute hours.

    THANK YOU MAYOR BEMIS!

    Maybe we can get you to run for Portland Mayor!

  7. Oh I forgot to add, I heard today that a max operator was assaulted when he asked somebody to get off the train at the end of the line.

    Max is safe? Didn’t anybody ever tell some of you that “magical thinking” just doesn’t work?

  8. Just a point of clarification, Terry. Hillsboro police already are a regular part of fare missions on the west side. The Port of Portland Police regularly ride the airport line close to the airport. The City of Portland has a dedicated Transit Police division. My question is, why was Gresham the last city to get with it.

  9. Grant,

    The city of Portland is part of a consortium of police agencies, including Hillsboro, that make up the transit police. They operate under a contract with TRIMET. The cars that are marked “transit police” are actually funded by a contract with TRIMET and not city of Portland.

    The difference here is that GRESHAM is doing this on their own.

  10. Closing/restricting access to platforms, increasing fare compliance, and removing the “honor system,” would significantly reduce the criminal element on the trains.

    While the might seem like a common-sense solution, I’m not sure that restricted access platforms would do much to curb crime. New York’s subway system restricts access and the commonly held belief is that it is full of weirdos and hooligans. I know from personal experience that you had to keep an eye out at certain CTA (Chicago) stops.

    While I don’t think that restricted-access platforms would be a bad idea, I’m not sure that would help with the crime problem. I think ultimately Gresham’s got the right idea, a police presence at the high-crime platforms or on the trains will hopefully cut down dramatically on crimes in and around MAX stations.

    FWIW

  11. I’m way more concerned/upset with the KGW ‘special investigation: is MAX letting criminals commute to your neighborhood’?

  12. And by the by, I think fare inspectors regularly on trains (instead of once every two months, which is how often I saw them when I was commuting to Beaverton every day on MAX) will accomplish 95% of what a police officer would accomplish; and I presume that fare inspectors don’t cost as much as police.

    So I’d start with fare inspectors more regularly on routes.

    I’d keep fareless square. It’s already slow enough getting through downtown on MAX and the bus. It’s also likely a boon to downtown businesses (especially once the mall is done)

  13. Oregonian Article

    “The MAX has been a living nightmare for us,” says a police sargeant. “I would not ride it at night — and I’m armed all the time. There are massive fights, guns displayed, stabbings, people being threatened and bullied.”

    “The MAX has been a living nightmare for us,” says a police sargeant. “I would not ride it at night — and I’m armed all the time. There are massive fights, guns displayed, stabbings, people being threatened and bullied.” The police officer added that they expect the problems to get worse as a new light-rail line is extended to Clackamas Town Center, the region’s largest shopping mall.

    So thanks to Portland’s housing policies, we have a concentration of poverty along a transit line that is especially susceptible to crime anyway. Meanwhile, the police department has suffered budget cuts so that the city can continue subsidizing rail transit and high-density real-estate developements. Should anyone be surprised at the result?

    [Moderator: Link shortened to restore page formatting. – B.R.]

  14. I couldn’t resist but I have to throw in my 2 cents worth. When I was living in Portland I frequently rode the bus/MAX and Streetcar. More often than NOT I had to deal with harassing from vagrants begging for change, hearing absolutely VILE language from inconsiderate and thuggish teenagers or B.O. and alcohol smell my fellow passenger. I even witnessed several drug deals on the MAX and even was nearly caught up in a melee on the MAX as it was crossing the Steel Bridge one night. That fight was so bad that someone was so bludgeoned there was blood everywhere and the driver had to stop the train and the cops were called.

    Well I live in Salem now and the difference in the transit system here and there is NIGHT AND DAY! People here are very CONSIDERATE to each other while waiting for the bus and once ON the bus, they engage in pleasant conversation with each other, the bus drivers are not RUDE and the whole system seems amazingly CLEAN compared to Tri-Met. Did I mention it’s also a lot CHEAPER, too? I am not stereotyping everyone who rides Tri-Met as a “thug” but it does seem that a greater percentage of thugs are riding compared to down here in Salem. One day I brought my grandma and mother along on the MAX and they were appaled by what they heard and saw while on board. They told me “I don’t see why anyone would want to live in this awful city.” Well I don’t live there any more. What an utter shame and embarassment to our state that these thugs are allowed to ride unchecked. If “they” don’t do something drastic soon I’m afraid the whole system will lose a lot of credibility and ridership will plummet.

  15. Meanwhile over on BikePortland.org the story of the murderous assault on bicyclists by those in motor vehicles continues…talk about getting away with murder.

  16. “Meanwhile over on BikePortland.org the story of the murderous assault on bicyclists by those in motor vehicles continues…talk about getting away with murder.”

    -OK, so we put more bicycle cops on the max trains-

    Bank Robbery Suspect Found On MAX

    Two Boys Attacked At MAX Station; Three Teens Sought

    Man Hit By MAX Train In Critical Condition

    MAX Train Collides With Delivery Truck

    Police: Dangerous Predator May Be In Portland Area
    abusing a child, he was also convicted of stabbing a corrections guard with a pencil. His sister said he may be hanging out in gay clubs or on crowded buses and MAX trains. Patton is white, 6 feet…

    Fairview Family Frustrated With MAX Station Crime
    Fairview Family Frustrated With MAX Station Crime. A Fairview family said their car has been broken into three times since last October at two Park-and-Ride MAX stations in Gresham….

    Pickup Truck Strikes MAX Train In Portland
    Pickup Truck Strikes MAX Train In Portland. A pickup truck struck a MAX train Wednesday morning, temporarily closing a northeast Portland intersection. TriMet officials said the truck hit the train as…

    Two Charged In School, MAX Station Vandalism
    Two Charged In School, MAX Station Vandalism. Police have made two arrests in a vandalism spree Tuesday night at Tobias Elementary School in Aloha and the Quatama Max Station. Police said they have arrested…

    Police Search For Woman Accused Of Attacking Teen At MAX Station
    Police Search For Woman Accused Of Attacking Teen At MAX Station. Police are searching for a woman who attacked a 14-year-old girl with pepper spray as she got off a MAX train in Beaverton. Linda Lambert…
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/10832195/detail.html

    Vehicle Collides With MAX Train
    Vehicle Collides With MAX Train. Authorities said a vehicle collided with a MAX train at South First Avenue and Southeast Washington Street in Hillsboro around 5:40 a.m. Thursday. Officials said the…
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/9803054/detail.html
    85%
    Sep 07, 2006
    MAX Train Collides With Car
    MAX Train Collides With Car. Tri-Met officials are investigating whether a light malfunction caused a MAX train to collide with a car. Police said the train crashed into 28-year-old Samantha Benton’s…
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/11575916/detail.html

    Reward Offered In MAX Assault, Robbery
    Reward Offered In MAX Assault, Robbery. A reward is being offered for information leading to the arrest of two teenagers wanted in connection with an assault and robbery on a MAX train last month….
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/10593285/detail.html

    Woman Injured After Collision Involving MAX Train
    Woman Injured After Collision Involving MAX Train. A woman is injured a fter her car crashed into a MAX train….
    Video: http://www.kptv.com/video/9709233/index.html
    82%
    Aug 21, 2006
    Man Allegedly Beaten At MAX Stop
    Man Allegedly Beaten At MAX Stop. A man is in the hospital after he was beaten near a Hillsboro MAX stop….
    Video: http://www.kptv.com/video/9578167/index.html

    Shooting Disrupts MAX Service; 2 Teens Arrested
    Shooting Disrupts MAX Service; 2 Teens Arrested. Two teenagers have been arrested in a shooting that temporarily shut down MAX service in northeast Portland on Thursday. The shooting occurred at about…
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/13387379/detail.html
    82%
    May 25, 2007
    Police Seek Max Station Robber
    Police Seek Max Station Robber. Hillsboro police are asking for the public’s help in finding a man who they said robbed a woman’s purse after spraying her in the face with a liquid substance. The…
    Article: http://www.kptv.com/news/11310093/detail.html

    >I THINK THAT’S ENOUGH FOR NOW

  17. “Meanwhile over on BikePortland.org the story of the murderous assault on bicyclists by those in motor vehicles continues…talk about getting away with murder.”

    >>>> Trying to deflect the conversation away from MAX, Lenny? Maybe because you have no argument to make on this particular topic?

  18. Now why did my comment get axed?

    It went into the spam folder because of the excessive number of links in one comment. It has now been restored.

  19. I have plenty to say…
    Crime hysteria…such as I am reading here… is usually a mark of elements who oppose public institutions of any kind…parks, trails, transit, libraries, schools, you name it. And unfortunately this blog has descended into a “trash transit” site. Thanks a lot.
    Resources need to follow real data, not news reports, media terror, etc. Police departments need to respond accordingly. Sounds like Gresham is finally getting their act together.
    Crime follows demographics…check out N. Mississippi in Portland and Rockwood in Gresham and note the shift that has occurred. Some of the same is occuring in Beaverton and Hillsboro; Portland is seems to no longer be the “Crime City” it was was reported to be.
    Police are there to protect the public, but even they will tell you that the presence of people is the best guard against anti-social activity and/or crime. Watch and report.

  20. Al, I agree completely. I think car drivers that don’t know how to stop at red lights should get in a lot of trouble, regardless of if they hit pedestrians, bicycles, other cars, or MAX trains. This is a serious crime wave, and the only way we will solve it is with more police presence. Although I’m not exactly sure why more police on bikes on the train would help, it isn’t like these were hit and runs against MAX trains, the drivers did stop…

  21. Well said, Lenny!
    The only thing that I can add is that sometimes it is necessary to look like you are doing something meaningful–even if you are not. The mayor of Gresham needed to show some form of leadership to “his” people living in the Rockwood area. Hopefully this demonstration by him will bring regional attention (and resources) to help this area out of its current slump. Violence on the MAX and at MAX stations is a symptom of the “dis-ease” of urban blight.

  22. This discussion shows why it is vital to have accurate statistics regarding crime types and locations, adjusted per-capita as well as knowing the demographics and home area of the perpetrators.

    As I have stated numerous other times, personally I think there is a problem, at the very least, with perception of crime on transit, and that I think increased staff would provide both a boost to perception as well as deter actual incidents. (Increased staff presence does not necessarily require police or uniformed security.)

    Here’s an example of how the kind of anecdotal reporting we’re seeing, without a larger statistical context, can cut against auto-oriented development as well:

    Archive of May 22, 2006 Columbian article about Wal-Mart crime

    The above article can be interpreted, by the same standards as are currently being applied to MAX in this discussion, that Wal-Mart is the single most powerful magnet for crime in Clark County.

    Let’s not make this some kind of “I told you so” brawl and instead let’s try and figure out how best to move forward.

    – Bob R.

  23. Can someone dig up some crime statistics on how the Portland area transit system fares compared to other transit districts in Oregon and Washington?

  24. “that Wal-Mart is the single most powerful magnet for crime in Clark County.”

    Bob R,

    You crack me up!! LOL!!

    haha:

    Look, really folks, having a police presence on max IS NOT A BAD THING, it can only have positive effects.

    Or as somebody suggested, just get the fare inspectors or the wackenhut officers to ride the things all night long.

    LOOK AT IT AS PUBLIC RELATIONS:

    “Portland cares about its transit riders, tourists encouraged to visit PORTLAND OREGON, safest city in the west!”

  25. RE WalMart story…

    “The store is not open 24 hours per day, however overnight camping is permitted in the parking lot,” the report says. “Deputies are responding to calls for service at that location even when Wal-Mart is closed.”

    Well, whatta know, motor vehicle-based crime!

    Of course, I strongly agree that TriMet needs to bite the bullet and greatly beef up its fare inspector and police presence; they have relatively few people in these functions given their heavy ridership.

  26. For TriMet it is a matter of resources….more $ for fare inspection and police means less for bus operators. Local jursidictions and their police departments should take the lead on dealing with public safety in their territories.
    MAX does not cause crime any more than 82nd Avenue does…of course in my few 82nd Avenue is a crime, but that’s another string.
    From a PR point of view, yes TriMet needs to reassure its riders, but the fact is incidents appear to be few and far between. But yes, let’s see some data.

  27. “For TriMet it is a matter of resources.”

    SOMEBODY, like ERIK for example, needs to take a real hard look at TRIMET in terms of service delivery % vs. administration % overhead.

    I remember reading somewhere that TRIMET has one of the highest percentages of administration
    vs transit delivery anywhere in the transit industry.

    That’s what needs to be looked at, that is where the problem lies.

    I don’t mean to be critical, but they have 7 floors of people sitting at desks, and I wanna know

    W-H-Y ???

  28. The Mayor, in fact, blames it on “gentrification”. The fact is that Gresham now has the major concentrations of poverty that have been associated with inner-city neighborhoods. That is hardly unique to the Portland region, the same pattern is happening elsewhere in the country with aging suburban neighborhoods.

    This is one of the most circular pieces of logic I think I’ve heard in a long time. Isn’t the gentrification being CAUSED by the local government-supported policies of tax abatement subsidized “transit-oriented development” ?

    Am I missing something here? We build the trains, then sponsor people to develop around them. They do, causing property values to rise (gentrification), and the impoverished move somewhere they can still afford to live, concentrating it in other neighborhoods.

    If gentrification is causing the uptick in crime, then equally blame the policies that cause the gentrification for consistency.

  29. And one more thing:

    “Let’s not make this some kind of “I told you so” brawl and instead let’s try and figure out how best to move forward.”

    I agree with that, HOWEVER, I took alot of abuse from several members of this group the last time this topic was discussed;

    “your making it up”
    “bus drivers are stupid” (paraphrase)
    “police sergeants are stupid” (paraphrase)

    and so forth and so on:

    so yea, I want my moment in the sun;

    I TOLD YA SO!

    repeat:

    I T-O-L-D Y-O-U S-O !!

  30. Lenny, you made my point when you wrote “Crime follows demographics…check out N. Mississippi in Portland and Rockwood in Gresham and note the shift that has occurred. Some of the same is occuring in Beaverton and Hillsboro; Portland is seems to no longer be the “Crime City” it was was reported to be.”

    UGB’s increase pressure to gentrify the city. TOD subsidy brings low income apartments to the burbs where there the police and social services are not able to handle the issues. All very “Progressive”.

  31. Al: when you say “paraphrase” you seem to mean “making it up.” You’re the only one who said police sergeants or bus drivers were stupid. Nobody else here made that claim.

    And sorry, al, but there’s no “I told you so” here. Is “crime within 1/4 mile of MAX stations in Gresham” related to MAX, or is that just because crime is high in those parts of Gresham?

    By the way, that bunch of links you posted had:

    ONE attack that occurred on MAX itself
    ONE attack when the victim was followed off the train
    THREE attacks at or near a MAX platform (possibly by non-riders)
    ELEVEN links that had NOTHING to do with violent crime on or near MAX.

    If eleven out of sixteen links to “prove your point” have nothing to do with it, well, you aren’t really proving your point.

    In any case, anecdotes about one bad thing or another that happened on or near MAX doesn’t show a genuine safety issue. You would need to show that crime ON MAX or AT MAX stations is significantly worse than the general crime rate in the surrounding areas, or that MAX somehow is a magnet for criminal activity. So far, these stories only show that every once in a while, a criminal strikes at or near a MAX station (which may or may not have anything to do with MAX), and every more rarely, a crime occurs on MAX.

    I agree with Bob — there is a perception issue here, and the perception probably is far worse than the actual problem. I also agree, in principle, that putting more uniformed people on MAX wouldn’t hurt, even if they’re private security or fare inspectors. People tend to behave better when there’s a uniform and badge nearby. (Besides, Tri-Met probably could benefit from higher fare recovery.)

  32. The problem here is that MAX seems to be an ‘attractive nuisance’ that appears to draw people with malicious intent. Just look at the problems that have occurred at the Lloyd Center station.

  33. TriMet has issued a news release:

    November 5, 2007

    TriMet expands security and presence on system

    Following the Saturday night attack at the Gresham Central TC, TriMet General Manager Fred Hansen has ordered additional presence and security on the transit system, including the following:

    • Convene a safety summit for the light rail system, and work with the jurisdictions served by MAX. The goal would be to fully coordinate security-related efforts and ensure that all jurisdictions maximize our limited resources to get the most benefit.
    • Survey all MAX platforms and transit centers to look for opportunities to increase lighting, improve sightlines, add surveillance cameras and other physical changes to enhance security.
    • Increase the number of Wackenhut contracted security on the system.
    • Direct all TriMet personnel to be more visible on vehicles and at platforms while performing their regular duties, whether it is cleaning a platform, servicing a ticket vending machine or just riding the system.
    • Remove graffiti on TriMet property within 24 hours.
    • Ensure there are consequences, including jail time, for anyone that commits a crime on TriMet.

    “I am directing these changes in order to increase the oversight of our transit system and improve the quality of service to all of our riders,” said TriMet General Manager Fred Hansen. “I want everyone who rides TriMet or would like to ride TriMet to feel safe, secure and that they can call upon any TriMet employee for help or to answer a question.”

  34. The problem here is that MAX seems to be …

    Nick, you’ve hit the nail on the head: Is MAX _really_ a nuisance attractor, or does it just _seem_ that way. The truth is somewhere in between — certainly we need to deal with negative perceptions but we also need to determine what the reality is and deal with that.

    Real leadership on the issue should encompass both dealing with perceptions and real problems. Those who deal only in perceptions will only allow any real problems to become worse, and those who deal with problems without a nod to perception risk losing support even while they are doing good and necessary work.

    – Bob R.

  35. Does anybody know how many attacks/robberies there are on Tri-Met riders IN TOTAL on MAX platforms and trains in any given year? And for that matter, on buses, and directed at people waiting at bus stops or at transit centers?

    (And we probably should add to that: how many people are attacked by someone who followed them off a bus or train?)

    Are those numbers even out there?

  36. Bob R. is correct.

    There may very well be a fixed amount of crime and gang activity in Gresham, but crime in and around the Max is reported at a higher rate.

    Why? Not because Max is a magnet for crime, but quite the opposite, Max brings people of different socioeconomic statuses into close contact, and it is in these situations that crimes of convenience will occur and are more likely to be reported.

    If a gang fight occurs twenty blocks away from Max, what is the probability that someone with a cell phone views it and reports it vs. if it occurs on or within sight of Max?

  37. Nick, you’ve hit the nail on the head: Is MAX _really_ a nuisance attractor, or does it just _seem_ that way.

    Any place that attracts people is a nuisance “attractor”. It seems to me the question is whether MAX is a nuisance creator.

    Isn’t the gentrification being CAUSED by the local government-supported policies of tax abatement subsidized “transit-oriented development” ?

    No. But your point is correct nonetheless. Improving a neighborhood is, by definition, going to make it more attractive and that ususally means less affordabe. If you look at the Coalition for a Livable Future Equity Atlas, it shows what everyone knows. As concentrations of poverty have declined in North and Northeast, they have increased in Gresham.

    Part of that can be blamed on MAX since there was a failure to preserve affordable housing along the Interstate MAX line. It appears the same process may be happening with I205. The simple truth is you need to preserve affordable housing in neighborhoods alond with new investments that make those neighborhoods better places to live. If you don’t, you are just pushing problems around the region instead of really solving them.

  38. Erik, is your argument that MAX shuttles criminals around, or that MAX creates a place where potential victims are standing around at night, or what? And what sort of solution would you propose?

    What the actual criminal element on/near MAX is irrelevant; rather that MAX acts as a magnet that attracts those who wish to act criminal acts.

    The solution was simple – TriMet has known and there are numerous complaints about MAX light rail security. As always, TriMet simply ignores the current state of affairs because it’s sexy for Fred Hansen to talk about a new light rail line than to fix the system that he is supposed to be running.

    However I will probably be proven right in that TriMet will come around and spend large sums of money to attack this problem, and simply shift the money from other parts of TriMet’s budget.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall that TriMet has a line item in its budget to buy three Toyota Priuses this year (but is too poor to buy a new bus.) Let’s see, $90,000 for three single-occupant cars (when the people can just ride a bus for free!) or $90,000 for security improvements.

    You decide.

  39. “Total crime dropped in 2006 on MAX and TriMet — to a total of 886 crimes from 988 in 2005. But there were still 88 robberies last year, and 156 simple assaults.”

    And VR did the math in the comments to that post:

    “Tri-Met has roughly 300,000 riders PER DAY. That is 109,500,000 per year. Which makes less that .0008 percent of the riders involved in a crime, – or .0002 percent of riders involved in a robbery or assault.”

    .0002%. In other words, if you get on Tri-Met, there is about one chance in 500,000 you will be robbed or attacked on that trip.

    So gettng attacked on Tri-Met isn’t a one-in-a-million event after all.

    It’s more like two-in-a-million.

    Feeling scared yet?

  40. 90k buys what? 1.5 officers on Tri-Met per day? 12 hours a day, 260 days a year… that amounts to putting a security officer on roughly… .0001% of all tri-met trips.

    If you’re a daily commuter and use Tri-Met on weekends too, let’s be generous and say you make 20 trips a week on public transit. You’d see an officer once every… 9 years and 7 months.

    For 90k. A year.

  41. I seem to recall that TriMet has a line item in its budget to buy three Toyota Priuses this year (but is too poor to buy a new bus.) Let’s see, $90,000 for three single-occupant cars (when the people can just ride a bus for free!) or $90,000 for security improvements.

    Erik, you’ve complained multiple times that TriMet has too many personnel driving around in SUVs. Now they’re adding mid-size hybrids to the fleet, and you complain again.

    And if they’re spending $30K per Prius, as you seem to imply, they’re paying way too much. Even the top package with nav, bluetooth, smart key, and leather interior retails for $27,500. The base model invoice (closer to what most fleets buy) is $20,500.

    Three Prii wouldn’t cover the cost of a new bus, and it wouldn’t begin to cover the cost of a bus plus someone to drive it for a year.

    I just love how TriMet addresses one of your classic complaints, and you find a way to turn it into a new complaint.

    – Bob R.

  42. “…In other words, if you get on Tri-Met, there is about one chance in 500,000 you will be robbed or attacked on that trip.”

    >>>> It depends on what time of day and where you are going; if you have to ride the Blue Line to Gresham every day in the evening, you chances over time will go up dramatically.

    And don’t forget the unpleasant atmosphere (which causes perceptions of danger) that you will have to often tolerate.

  43. “And don’t forget the unpleasant atmosphere (which causes perceptions of danger) that you will have to often tolerate.”

    Why do I get the feeling that some people just don’t like people in general? Hey, you don’t like the soaring income inequality in the USA? Do something about it, starting with who you vote for…but this notion that somehow this so called “underclass” should just remain unseen is disgusting…and especially on “public” transit.

    Nick, if you think it’s unpleasant all I can say is that it is the policies that your generation has perpetuated upon the American public that has caused this. Get a grip buddy and start taking responsiblity for what you have made of America.

  44. This is a silly argument.

    I bet more people get assaulted in their own homes. Should we consider homes dangerous?

    Get a grip people.

    Anything – transit, building, mall, whatever – anything is going to get dangerous when society stops “owning” it.

    When we stop taking an active part in our communities, when we stop doing things because we are afraid, when we give up our streets to the thugs so that we can feel “safe” inside – when we give up our world the bad elements will gladly take it.

    It is not a poor vs rich thing – although crime rate is directly tied to poverty rate – better economy and economic equity generally lower the crime rate.

    But it IS an us vs. them thing. When you are out in your community – don’t let the taggers get away with it. Don’t let the vandals or the punks get away with it. The reason they do things like intimidate others is because they have been given free pass.

    Why did not 10 people jump on that kid and do something? I am sorry but I will die before I let a kid beat someone with a bat. I will fight my ass off to protect anyone.

    This is OUR community and it includes MAX and busses. Take back the night people…

    Start small. Be a part of your neighborhood. Work with a kid to help them grow up right. Work with a family to help them be more stable. Work with your neighbors to keep areas free of crime.

    People saying they are scared of transit so not riding perpetuates the problem. If the “good” people are not riding then it leaves it full of “bad” people.

    It has nothing to do with transit and everything to do with our own responsibility to our communities.

    Apathy is deadly.

  45. I personally can see how it’s possible that crime is increased around popular bus stops and max stations. I think that because where there are more people there is more of a chance for something to happen. I also think the problem is that the news loves to talk about how unsafe the MAX is, that is why they love to always say when something happened in the area around a MAX station even when the MAX had nothing to do with it.

    Take a look at KGW’s most recent story about MAX, “Trimet vows to expand MAX security after brutal attack in Gresham” The article had nothing to do with the “fixes” TriMet is going to try and only talked about the attack. Also it seems the older fellow was waiting for a bus, not the MAX, so all this change Gresham is planning with police ridding the MAX would have been useless to this man unless the MAX was at the station and the cop could see. What people should be wanting is more police and security at the TC’s and Stations then onboard the MAX it self.

    My Point Of View: I ride the bus and MAX late at night often, I have never felt directly threatened, though sometimes uncomfortable by other passengers. I felt the most unsafe riding the bus, the bus seems to have fewer people on it and waiting for the bus near those dark stops is sometimes so eerie. The MAX stations at least have lighting and seem to always draw more people making me feel safer. As another note C-Tran buses and stops have always been the most terrifying for me, several times waiting for the “37” there have been fights, and I was also a waiting for a bus at 7th street transit center when the FOX 12 reporter got attacked (though that had nothing to do with C-Tran). C-Tran seems to be littered with insane people and angry youth, I feel much safer riding TriMet.

    At the end of the month I have to make several late night trips using busses and MAX. I’m going to be heading from Parkrose MAX station to 82nd AVE Overpass to catch the 72 towards Clackamas one night, and all this media chatter is starting to convince me that it’s unsafe. (But it’s not going to deter my trip)

  46. The Oregonian ran an article about crime on MAX today. The dead tree edition had a graphic showing “Crime on Light Rail” and a bar graph of the “Top ten stations for crime,” but that chart doesn’t seem to be on-line. (If it is, and I just couldn’t find it, could somebody link to it?)

    My home station, 82nd Avenue, was listed with the most reported criminal activity: 350 incidents over the last two years. That’s almost one “incident” every two days.

    Thing is, the story — and especially the graphic — seems pretty alarmist. “Crime on MAX light rail” is in a large, bold-faced font on the chart. Underneath in much smaller type is the disclaimer: “Crimes include everything from nonpayment of fares to aggravated assaults.” You might not even notice that, since the eye is drawn to the scary red bar graph about the “top ten stations for crime.” And the one crime actually mentioned on the chart is “71-year-old man assaulted with baseball bat.”

    Thing is, if “criminal activity” includes “nonpayment of fares,” I’m not surprised 82nd Avenue scores high. It’s a very busy station, as it’s the transfer point to bus #72. Sometimes I get off there at night, and there are cops all over the place, checking fares. I wonder if other stations on the system get that level of regular police attention? If not, the very high crime statistics might just be from catching a lot of fare evaders.

    There are, I think, two different stories here. One story is “how much does Tri-Met lose to fare evasion?” The other story is “how dangerous is it to use public transit?” Conflating them like that, with big eye-catching graphics seems more alarmist than newsworthy. 350 “crimes” could mean 350 cases of fare evasion, vandalism, and littering, and no assaults at all. (I’m not saying there weren’t any assaults, just making the point that you can’t tell.)

    Meaningful news would be: how many assaults and robberies (including attempted assaults and robberies) occur on MAX? That has a real bearing on public safety. Fare evasion is annoying, but it’s not a threat to other riders.

  47. djk –

    Even without the graphs, the Oregonian article doesn’t make any sense. Take this paragraph, for example:

    Crime on MAX generally kept pace with ridership, both doubling since 1999, figures show. In 1999, the agency recorded just more than one crime per 100,000 rides. Last year, the figure was slightly more than two crimes per 100,000 rides.

    Either the reporter is misstating the numbers of crimes per 100,000 rides, or the reporter is flatly incorrect in stating that crime has “kept pace” with ridership.

    Furthermore, the definition of “crime” in the above paragraph MUST be different than in the paragraph about 82nd ave:

    Statistics show the station with the most reported crime during the past two years was at Northeast 82nd Avenue, with 350 incidents, followed by Beaverton Transit Center with 265.

    If the rate of “crime”, as stated in the 1st paragraph, is 2 per 100,000 rides, and there is nearly an incident every two days at just this station, 82nd Ave. alone would amount to 1/6th of all crime in the entire transit system, buses and MAX. The “Top 10” stations would amount to more crime per boarding than there are daily boardings in the system.

    It may make some kind of sense in some column on some internal incident report, but it makes absolutely no sense to publicly disclose fare evasion incidents in the same total with crimes against persons.

    We really need 3 columns here:

    Rider code infractions (fare evasion, smoking on platforms)
    Crimes against property
    Crimes against persons

    Something sad near the end of the Oregonian article – the victim here was unfortunately a victim of another crime earlier in life:

    His sister said that 20 years ago, when he was living in Los Angeles, he was struck by a car that was driven by someone eluding police. The wreck shattered his legs and pelvis, and Topliff said he has had trouble walking since.

    – Bob R.

  48. Hawthorne, I know this isn’t the point of this thread but I hate to let you just get away with that income inequality bs. I know if you repeat a lie enough people start believing it so I can’t just let this go.

    Income inequality is a natural and desirable part of a free, prosperous society. Your language implies that American wealth is a communal pie that belongs equally to all of us. It is not and it doesn’t.

    The huge wealth that exists in America has been created–through the productive activities and voluntary arrangements of individuals. And individuals do not necessarily create the same amount of wealth. There are by vast differences in ability, work ethic, interests, skills, and choices and these are the root of vast differences in income.

  49. nwjg –

    Income inequality is a natural outcome of market-based economies, of course.

    But Hawthorne is referring to the ever-widening gap… the top earners in this country are making vast gains while everyone from upper-middle-class to those in poverty are only basically treading water with respect to the growth of the overall economy.

    Some of this may be due to shifts in market dynamics, but a very significant chunk of this comes from government policy of running up huge deficits whilst simultaneously maintaining the best tax breaks to the highest income earners.

    The result is a shift, via tax and budget policy, of income going to the highest income earners, taken from everyone else.

    Hawthorne is correct that “who you vote for” has a lot to do with this.

    – Bob R.

  50. “We really need 3 columns here:

    Rider code infractions (fare evasion, smoking on platforms)
    Crimes against property
    Crimes against persons”

    >>>> But rowdy behavior is not a crime and usually not a danger to other passengers, but is something that can drive a lot of riders away.

  51. “I am directing these changes in order to increase the oversight of our transit system and improve the quality of service to all of our riders,” said TriMet General Manager Fred Hansen. “I want everyone who rides TriMet or would like to ride TriMet to feel safe, secure and that they can call upon any TriMet employee for help or to answer a question.”

    *See, even Fred finally gets the picture.*

    “As always, TriMet simply ignores the current state of affairs because it’s sexy for Fred Hansen to talk about a new light rail line than to fix the system that he is supposed to be running.”

    *I gotta agree with that statement*

    “In other words, if you get on Tri-Met, there is about one chance in 500,000 you will be robbed or attacked on that trip.”

    *even in the face of all that’s gone on in the last few days, we still have the ‘magical thinkers’ who just refuse to see the truth of the situation, maybe they are relatives of George Bush, who also suffers from that same syndrome.

    Listening (or reading I guess) the opinions of some of you guys is like debating my Baptist Fundamentalist brother who insists the world is only 10,000 years old, and there is nothing I can do or say to convince him otherwise. *

    “C-Tran seems to be littered with insane people and angry youth,”

    -Vancouver sucks, I agree-
    “““““““““““““““““`

    Here is a quote from Sgt. Shmautz of the Portland Police bureau.
    Portland police Sgt. Brian Schmautz says those overall crime rate changes don’t tell the whole story.
    He says crooks brag about using MAX to get around the city.
    Their crimes are more concentrated, he says, around the train tracks.
    “You’d be sticking your head in the sand if you were to say there is no crime.”
    Near Daniels’ house – within a half-mile radius of the MAX stop at Prescott- statistics that describe the locations and types of crimes over the past year show that drug crimes, for example, occurred mostly next to the train line.
    A similar effect occurs when you look at robberies near that train stop.
    Disorderly conduct crimes are also clumped along the MAX line but other crimes seem much more spread out.
    “It doesn’t mean that the system is bad,” explained Sgt. Schmautz, “but it is the reality of the system that exists.”
    ““““““““““““““
    Trouble spots map, can’t ignore the fact that they cluster around the max
    http://www.gis.ci.portland.or.us/maps/police/detail.cfm?action=Crime_Summary&intersection_id=39073&x=7643170.229&y=696136.255&site_name=N%20INTERSTATE%20AVE%20and%20N%20PRESCOTT%20ST&city=PORTLAND&ResultCount=1
    ““““““““““““““““
    good article
    http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_110407_news_gresham_bat_beating.1d97d0e0a.html

    WHY IS THERE ANY DEBATE ON THIS AT ALL? PUTTING IN MORE SECURITY IS A WIN WIN SITUATION!

    “Hawthorne is correct that “who you vote for” has a lot to do with this.”

    WRONG BOB R, the system is fixed for the rich, has always been fixed for the rich, and most likely will continue forever to be fixed for the rich.

    AND VOTING AINT GONNA CHANGE IT!
    “““““““““

  52. But rowdy behavior is not a crime and usually not a danger to other passengers

    Disruptive behavior is a rider code infraction … but I agree that enforcement against disruptive behavior is rare and that such behavior can drive riders away.

    – Bob R.

  53. Not true Bob, the highest earners pay way more than their share of taxes. The top 50% pay 95% of the taxes.

    People, overall are not “treading water”.

    A new study by the Congressional Budget Office says the poor have been getting less poor. On average, CBO found that low-wage households with children had incomes after inflation that were more than one-third higher in 2005 than in 1991.

    “The CBO results don’t fit the prevailing media stereotype of the U.S. economy as a richer take all affair — which may explain why you haven’t read about them. Among all families with children, the poorest fifth had the fastest overall earnings growth over the 15 years measured. (See the nearby chart.) The poorest even had higher earnings growth than the richest 20%. The earnings of these poor households are about 80% higher today than in the early 1990s.

    Again, The often-used phrase “distribution of income” suggests the metaphor of a pie. A more accurate metaphor would be an escalator. The pie metaphor treats income as static, thereby ignoring one of the most important facts about the standard of living, which is its rise over time. . .

    And because it’s not the same people, you have to be very careful drawing conclusions about changes in the average American’s well-being over time. Those numbers are affected by immigration, divorce and demographic changes. The median can fall but the median person can still do better over time.”

    Check http://cheatseekingmissiles.blogspot.com/2007/05/poor-just-get-richer.html

    The “progressive” policies you favor make things worse, not better. In the name of giving citizens “equal access” to education and medicine, the government has virtually taken over these fields, placing crippling controls on both producers and consumers. In the name of equalizing income, it enforces minimum-wage and anti-firing laws that make it difficult for eager newcomers to enter the job market. In the name of saving us from the alleged evils of rich, Big Business, it enforces endless regulations that apply to every business, decreasing the productivity of all and making it hard for new business ventures to succeed.

    In America, equality should mean only one thing: freedom for all. If business and wages were deregulated, we would see a dramatic rise in economic opportunity. If education and medicine were left free, with America’s businessmen, doctors, and educators liberated to offer education and medicine at all different price points, we would see quality and price improvements like those for computers or flat-panel television sets.

  54. Al – take it easy.

    Your comment, again, was sent to the junk folder automatically because it contained too many links, and I think your excessive use of ALL CAPS (shouting) had something to do with it too.

    This blog has received over 400 (!) spam messages in the past 24 hours. If it weren’t for the spam filters (plural) that are in place, the comments here would be choking on spam.

    If you find that one of your comments has been filtered, just use the “Contact Us” address at the bottom of the page.

    – Bob R.

  55. “But rowdy behavior is not a crime and usually not a danger to other passengers, but is something that can drive a lot of riders away.”

    I totally agree. The question is, what can police do about it? Lets give a totally innocent example: 4 non-white teenager boys get on a high floor MAX car, (with the windows that don’t stay shut,) while it is going through the tunnel, and talk to each other, but they aren’t standing very close to each other. It is going to scare some people, they will go, “wow, these gang members are shouting at each other.” They could be talking about flowers and puppy dogs, but it is still going to lead people to believe that MAX is unsafe. And no amount of fare inspection, police presence, or anything else is going to change the fact that it is hard to hold a quiet conversation when you are going 60 in a tunnel with the windows open, and TriMet would get sued if they started telling minorities that they needed to sit quietly while on the train.

  56. OK OK, I’m not used to getting filtered, ever, so I am over reacting!

    “The poorest even had higher earnings growth than the richest 20%.”

    LOL!!LOL!!

    Now I have seen everything!!LOL!!

    So the guy making 8 buccks an hour gets a raise to 10 bucks an hour , so that’s a 25% increase in wages, but the guy getting 1,000,0000 a year gets a raise of 100,000 per year so that’s only 10%.

    PROOF POSITIVE THAT THE POOR ARE DOING BETTER THAN THE RICH.

    GOD BLESS AMERICA, LAND THAT I LOVE!

  57. nwjg –

    Thanks for posting the CATO press release that was posted on 67 different right-wing blogs in the same week.

    It’s a fascinating read because it goes to great lengths to imply the complete opposite of what the CBO report actually says.

    As for the “top 50% pay 95% of the taxes” canard, that’s just silly because it conflates taxes paid with actual income tax rates, and ignores payroll, property, and sales taxes.

    – Bob R.

  58. Walking back from lunch it occurred to me that actually MAX trains are pretty amazing for how little crime they have. Where else do we gather, sometimes crowd, so many people, from so many different background and cultures into a common space? People for the most part get along pretty well; indeed it is probably the best place for young people to learn to behave. Of course, some never do.
    Getting attacked is no fun. I hope the gentleman recovers, shakes it off, and gets back on the train.

  59. “In other words, if you get on Tri-Met, there is about one chance in 500,000 you will be robbed or attacked on that trip.”

    *even in the face of all that’s gone on in the last few days, we still have the ‘magical thinkers’ who just refuse to see the truth of the situation, maybe they are relatives of George Bush, who also suffers from that same syndrome.

    Al, I’m not a magical thinker. Quite the reverse. I’m looking at the situation realistically based on the closest thing I can find to hard numbers. And (apparently unlike you), I can do math.

    Assume that Nick is right and you have a dramatically greater chance of being attacked if you ride the Blue Line in Gresham at night. Multiply it ten-fold. One chance in 50,000 to be robbed or attacked per ride. Assume further that you ride out there in the evening, and back again the same evening (two rides a day), five days a week.

    On average, you could expect to be the victim of a violent crime once every 96 years.

    Obviously, dangerous stuff happens. You get 100,000 people riding every day, there WILL be attacks and robberies here and there, and on average you’ll see that happen a few times a month. But MAX is still pretty safe, even in the “dangerous” parts. And I’m not gonna get nervous about riding it because someone does get attacked every once in a while.

  60. Now, I’d like to know what is going to happen when the Green Line to Clackamas opens in 2009.

    It will go through Lents, which has many of the same crime problems that Gresham has, AND, to make things even worse, the stations will be down in the I-205 freeway, making them even more isolated and unattractive (and also unsafe?) to riders at night.

    The concept of transit lines, of any type, down in freeways/expressways just sucks, for more than one reason, and just goes to show you that much of transit construction since WWII is not designed to serve the community; instead it is oriented towards autos (i.e,, getting people out of their cars and off the freeway/expressway).

  61. …I was also a waiting for a bus at 7th street transit center when the FOX 12 reporter got attacked (though that had nothing to do with C-Tran). C-Tran seems to be littered with insane people and angry youth…
    Yeah, 7th St. TC has sort of a bad rap with some; I’ve been through there many times (even once at C-TRAN’s current 10 PM weekday end of service), and have never seen a problem there that was directly related to transit center misconduct (there was one time I was riding one of their buses when someone decided to cus out a bus driver, and the police were waiting for him down there). BTW, 7th St. closes, presumably for good, after end of service on Saturday, November 17th 2007. I would say that based on my overall experience however, 7th was probably the worst part of their system in terms of perceived security/safety issues. However, I’ll also guess that several thousand people go through there daily without a problem.

  62. I have been thinking about this topic some as well as keeping up with everyone’s comments. It seems that the people that are most against MAX are using the idea of “crime clusters” around MAX stations as proof that light rail is a bad idea. But I think that the opposite arguement is just as valid. If I was a criminal I would want a safe, convienent and dependable form of transportation both to and from the scene of my nefarious activities. It seems that MAX has proven to be that in some areas-and since it was built to be a safe, convienent and dependable form of transportation, it is fullfilling it’s designed perpose. (This also fullfills Trimet’s mission to provide public transportation in the Portland region-ultimately it is Trimet’s job to take people places not fight crime-that is a job for the Police Bureau.) So I conclude that the posters that decry MAX as an ineffective form of transportation AND as a magnet for crime are goring themselves on the horns of a delemma. Either MAX is a poor form of transportation in which case why would criminals ( or anyone else) risk using it OR it is a magnet for crime BECAUSE it is such a good get away vehicle. So which is it?

  63. I also wanted to say that I think that Bob R. is quite correct with his idea of having “Ride Guides”-i.e. persons that would be available to answer questions or give dirctions to MAX riders. Of course, the downside is where does Trimet find the money to fund this?

  64. The concept of transit lines, of any type, down in freeways/expressways just sucks,

    On this Nick and I agree. Unfortunately, the cost of right-of-way makes using existing right-of-way a major cost savings. It may have made more sense to use 82nd, but that was a non-starter politically. And it would have made for a slower trip as well.

    It will go through Lents, which has many of the same crime problems that Gresham has, AND, to make things even worse, the stations will be down in the I-205 freeway, making them even more isolated and unattractive (and also unsafe?) to riders at night.

    I don’t know if that is true. The problems talked about here are in Gresham, where the stops are at street level, not Hollywood or 82nd. There are two things that may make crime more likely near surface stations. One is that there are places to hang out near the station without being conspicuous. The other is that a quick getaway is possible.

    The perception may be different. But I think it is important to compare the safety of a MAX stop to the safety of a bus stop. Security at the MAX stop is probably going to be better both because there are more people around and there is some control over people hanging out there.

  65. “Al, I’m not a magical thinker. Quite the reverse. I’m looking at the situation realistically based on the closest thing I can find to hard numbers. And (apparently unlike you), I can do math.”

    You’ve got me wrong DJK, all I am saying, and all I have ever said, is that MAX, and MAX stations should be part of police patrol routine. I never said that people are in imminent danger of rape or murder on the MAX.
    Wherever you have groups of people together, you will have crime, max is not the issue, it’s the groups of people that are the issue.

    There is an excellent post at the TRIMETOPERATORS SITE that I really thought told the true story of why the transit system can get so scary at times, here is the post, and I can vouch for its accuracy!
    …………………………….

    Most of the problems we have on lightrail comes down to the fact that rowdy
    kids, usually
    with bus passes, can ride all over town and it’s FUN!! They meet up at a
    station or along a
    bus route, grow in numbers like a tumor. Here, this is an example of what
    happens:

    A line 4 operator passes a stop along Fesseden, there are three kids there at
    the shelter,
    they act like they’re going to get on the bus but they just poke their head in,
    see a friend
    and yell back for them to get off the bus. All of a sudden there are 5 of them.
    The bus
    leave. The next bus comes by and by this time a coulple more kids have shown
    up. The
    operator opens the door but none of them get on. They’re milling around, not
    doing
    anything too suspect other than acting a little on the mischievious side of
    things so the
    bus leaves. There is a sign posted that the stop is for transit use only- what
    is going on
    here?

    By the time the next bus shows up about a half an hour has elapsed and the group
    has
    reached critical mass. There are about 15 kids there and most of them cram onto
    the bus
    giving the operator a ton of greif, one might be trying to sneak by the operator
    then when
    caught pulls out a youth pass and snickers (testing the operator). Others cram
    their hands
    deep into their pockets pushing their pants down around their knees then putting
    48
    cents into the fare box they stand there with their hands out waiting for a
    transfer. [This
    is where I try to feign confusion]. They all get on and ride down to Interstate
    where they
    get off and join another group of kids milling around the bus stop at Interstate
    and
    Lombard. Here comes trouble.

    Our transit system is here to allow people (including these kids) to get from
    one place to
    another- the problem is that it is simply too much fun for these kids to use the
    transit
    system as a way of acheiving this critical mass. This is where we need to nip
    the problem
    in the bud. We can’t wait until there is this huge mass of trouble making kids
    roving
    around- by that time it’s too late. We should be preventing the mass from
    forming is the
    first place. What we, as operators (those of us who are operators) neet is to
    be able to
    communicate when the seed of the mass has been planted. When kids start milling
    around a station or a bus stop- somebody needs to know. The best way to set up
    a
    system to monitor this is through outmessages.

    A loitering outmessage that would allow us to enter a number involved would be
    an
    effective way to get these kids to move somewhere else and could seriously
    hinder their
    ability to accumulate in the manner that they do. In the example above, when
    the first
    operator went by and the kids didn’t get on the bus- he would enter the
    loitering
    outmessage and would enter the number 5 which says “5 people loitering at this
    stop and
    not getting on a bus” Trimet is notified, since the stop is near New Columbia
    where there
    are LOTS of cops, Trimet lets the PPD know and the kids are moved on their way.
    They
    never reach critical mass, they don’t have as much fun, and a couple of them go
    home,
    decide to study for that test on monday, one of them passes it and goes on to
    become
    president of the United States in 2032.

    All over the system where these masses accumulate, they are almost instanty
    dispersed as
    soon as they START to form- all of a sudden Trimet isn’t really that much fun.
    People
    trying to use it to get around aren’t hassled/ assaulted as much and ridership
    goes UP and
    crime goes down! In any case, in order to solve this problem, Trimet needs to
    use US (the
    eyes of the system) and needs to set up a system to get information from us and
    needs to
    train us in exactly what they want us to report AND ought to expect us to report
    when
    people are loitering. As it is, I let it go because I assume that they don’t
    really care to
    know about a few kids hanging around a bus stop. This is exactly what Trimet
    NEEDS to
    know and act on if this problem is going to be solved.

    Jeff

  66. Maybe better than running around in souped up cars running down kids, bicyclists and grandmas.
    The kids on the 72 line do have tons of energy and that may be too much for some Ops, but most handle things really well. Kids have passes, so no fare hassles. Isn’t this what transit is for?

  67. The ever annoying Ross Williams said:
    “How terrible.”

    How terrible indeed when one of those rowdy kids hits you over the head with a baseball bat ROSS.

    You making light of this situation does nothing to help!

  68. How terrible indeed when one of those rowdy kids hits you over the head with a baseball bat ROSS.

    How terrible indeed when adults can’t distinguish between being loud and rowdy and hitting people over the head with a baseball bat.

  69. How terrible indeed when one of those rowdy kids hits you over the head with a baseball bat ROSS.

    How terrible indeed when adults can’t distinguish between being loud and rowdy and hitting people over the head with a baseball bat.

  70. OK, Ross and Lenny, I see that you are just trying to rationalize or minimize everything.
    Just remember that ‘rowdy’ behavior will drive way ‘choice’ riders from transit (bus and rail) in droves.

  71. Nick,

    I get the impression that your vision of mass transit is being able to reside in your own self controlled bubble- like an auto, perhaps?

    Guess what? We live in the real world, with all of its messes and imperfection. So you don’t like young people, who act like, erm…young people. And you don’t like poor people, who act like, erm poor people. Guess what? The world is not like you. Take the lemon out of your mouth and you might find the it all starts to taste different.

  72. We can go around and around with this, just like previous discussions.

    LUCKILY, we have men like the MAYOR OR GRESHAM in charge of things and not people like ROSS, DJK, AND HAWTHORNE.

    And luckily we have people like ERIK to keep everyone honest!

    Even Fred Hanson now admits things are getting out of control, but you guys go ahead, continue looking through your rose colored glasses.

    Hey, your entitled to delude yourself any way you see fit.

    I’ll live in the real world.

    “No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities.” Christian Nestell Bovee

  73. Al,

    First, it would be a good thing if you would QUIT YOUR SHOUTING.

    Second, how dare you ascribe views to me wthout knowing first. What have I said that would allow you to make the conclusions you have drawn?

    If there is a delusion here, it is yours. And I am just sorry that I am paying your salary-

  74. and btw Al…I pay your salary. As much as I love mass transit, your behavior makes me regret that. You do dishonor to your profession.

  75. Actually, Al, shouting makes you look kinda dumb, particularly when you’re the only one doing it.

    Also, it looks to me like you’re in violation of Rule 2 and possibly Rule 4. But I’m not a moderator, so that’s not my call.

  76. “You do dishonor to your profession.”

    And What do you know about my profession?

    I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY NOTHING!

    You don’t like my point of view, and now you fall into the pit of name calling.

  77. Well if they want to kick me off they will.

    Some blogs honor free speech more than others.

    I haven’t done anything, I’m not the one doing the name calling here.

    I express a point of view, several of you don’t like it, so you attempt to twist and bend all my words to suit your agenda, and I fight back, and will continue to fight back against your group bullying.

    We’ve been here before haven’t we?

  78. NOTE TO MODERATORS:

    I suggest you read through these last few posts, where you will see

    1-HAWTHORNE SAYS “YOU DO DISHONOR TO YOUR PROFESSION”
    which is a clear personal attack

    2-HAWTHORNE SAYS “YOUR BEHAVIOR IS A BIT LIKE THE TEENAGERS WHO RIDE TRIMET, another personal attack

    3-DJK SAYS “you look kinda dumb” another personal attack.

    SO MODERATORS, WHO IS ATTACKING WHOM HERE?

  79. Your humble moderator says it’s late and I have a plane to catch tomorrow.

    Al: Stop the shouting, ease off on the invective. And no, DJK wasn’t calling you dumb … nice editing there Al.

    Hawthorne: Please drop the “I pay your salary” angle. Although you may find Al’s attitude grating, the whole “I pay your salary” line can be misused to silence or dismiss the opinions of any government employee … counterproductive.

    The duplicate comments have been removed.

    Good night all, get some rest.

    – Bob R.

  80. Looking at the map that the Oregonian provided http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonianextra/2007/11/max.html
    it’s interesting to see how much external factors appear to play into safety around MAX stops. Total crime shoots way up at stops with park & rides, and at Lloyd Center Mall. The presence of teenagers (concentrated at Lloyd) and cars seems to make up perhaps the bulk of crime around MAX.

    Also, though there seems to be some correlation between the neighborhood around the stop, it isn’t as high as one might think; e.g., the Rockwood stops have little more than those in Beaverton. While we certainly can’t conclude too much from a hastily made-up map devoid of context, perhaps the police need to concentrate on policing the stations with park & rides or shopping centers nearby, rather than actually riding the MAX? Though both are good, of course.

    I have to say, though, that the number of crimes at the average station was much lower than I would have expected, given that the map spans two full years.

  81. “Just remember that ‘rowdy’ behavior will drive way ‘choice’ riders from transit (bus and rail) in droves.”

    I don’t think so. Fear will. And being frightened of boisterous kids is an illness of the old. Its a reason people move to gated retirement communities in Phoenix.

  82. the Rockwood stops have little more than those in Beaverton.

    The Beaverton MAX stop is a regional transit center and Beaverton Central, a couple blocks away, has only one crime reported. The other thing to realize is these are reports from Trimet, not all crimes in the vicinity of a stop.

    Aggregated reported crime data is very hard to interpret accurately. It mostly just gets waived around to score political points.

    What most of us are concerned about, in terms of our personal safety, is stranger-on-stranger crime. And aggregated crime data often doesn’t tell us much about that.

  83. Thanks for that link, Scott. The Oregonian would have been better off using the statistics from that map to create its “Top ten stations for crime” chart. Leaving off fare evasion gives a much more accurate picture.

    It appears that — big surprise here — the vast majority of the crime associated with MAX is car thefts, car prowls and vandalism of cars left unattended in light rail lots all day. One solution: charge some small fee for using the park & ride (say, $1 to $3 per day, depending on the demand — some of those park & rides fill up early), and use the revenue generated to pay for a parking lot attendant/security guard to collect parking fees and keep an eye on the cars. The attendant could also keep an eye on the platform itself.

    I expect with a physical security presence on site, car theft would drop way down.

    I note that crime really is pretty low. Al identified Willow Creek and Beaverton Transit Center as dangerous stations on the west side. Willow Creek had 5 robberies and 7 assaults in two years. That’s about one violent crime every two months. There were also two cases of menacing and five thefts and other thefts, although I’m betting menacing is significantly underreported.

    Beaverton Transit Center had no robberies and 4 assaults, about one violent crime every six months. There were 7 cases of menacing and 9 thefts reported in that time.

    Over on the east side, Lloyd Center had 10 robberies, 24 assaults, and 65 crimes total. That’s about one crime, of ANY type, every 11 days, and one violent crime every 21 days.

    Hollwood had 3 robberies and 17 assaults. That’s pretty high compared to a lot of other stations, but it’s still fewer than one violent crime per month.

    60th Avenue had 5 robberies and 4 assaults.

    82nd Avenue had 19 robberies and 26 assaults, and a total of 62 crimes reported over two years. With one violent crime every 16 days, on average, it’s the most “dangerous” station in the system.

    Then getting out to east Portland:

    Gateway had 3 robberies and 19 assaults.
    102nd Avenue had no robberies and 6 assaults.
    122nd Avenue had 4 robberies and 11 assaults
    148th Avenue had 6 robberies and 3 assaults.
    162nd Avenue had 9 robberies and 6 assaults.

    All of these stations report fewer than one violent crime every two months. In the case of 102nd Avenue, it’s about one every four months.

    Out in Gresham — where the mayor is dedicating police to address the “crime problem” on MAX, and where “everybody knows” the MAX is really dangerous — most of the stations show about one violent crime every six months. I hope, for the sake of the people of Gresham, that’s an effective use of manpower.

    Take out fare evasion and car prowls, and the “crime problem” on MAX seems a lot less scary. It just doesn’t happen very often, and the chance of any individual person being victimized is vanishingly small.

  84. Thanks djk for your careful analysis of real data.
    In the end what Gresham is doing may be a poor use of limited resources.
    I do recall that reported crime has actually gone down of late, while ridership…most of which is “choice riders” has continued to go up.
    I am as interested in personal safety on public transit as anyone…I have vivid memories of being knocked down at the Garfield L station on Chicago’s southside way back in 1964!…but no one is served…except maybe racist misanthropes…by screaming “crime, crime, crime.”

  85. “I get the impression that your vision of mass transit is being able to reside in your own self controlled bubble- like an auto, perhaps?”

    >>>> Hawthorne, most of the time I just ignore your posts as they often are nonsensical, and indulge in inaccurate personal attacks on other posters.

    However, this time I got you good. To wit:

    1) I have NEVER owned a car, and do not even have a driver’s license. I depend on Trimet for practically all of my transport needs in Portland.

    2) I rode subway (=REAL rail transit) trains to and from work for 37+ years.

    3) I have visited many other cities just to ride their transit sysytems AS A FAN.

    4) I do not like car rides any longer; I actually PREFER to ride transit, as strange as it my sound.
    That’s how habituated I have grown to using transit.

    So, before you stick your foot in you mouth again, why don’t you just grow up and stop casting aspersions on other posters which most of the time are not true. If you can’t find something constructive to say, please don’t post at all.

  86. 2) I rode subway (=REAL rail transit) trains to and from work for 37+ years.

    I don’t agree. Subways are really mostly commuter operations, real transit serves neighborhoods and communities. That is not to say subways are bad. Its just that they take people off the street and out of the community rather than allowing them to easily move around and see the community. Give me surface transportation any day for most trips.

  87. Al said:
    “Some blogs honor free speech more than others.”

    You seriously misunderstand free speech. If you were in my living room, and started shooting at me and I told you that you need to stop shooting, that isn’t a free speech issue. It is my living room, and I can make the rules I want. (Within some limits: for instance, child porn is illegal.) And if you don’t want to follow those rules, I can physically remove you or I can call the cops and have you arrested for trespassing, or any number of other things. Now, you can stand on the sidewalk in front of my house and with a sign that say “Matthew is a big meanie” and since the sidewalk isn’t my house, there is nothing I personally can do about it, (well, I can sue you for slander, if I can prove that it isn’t true.) But, if the government comes in and says you can’t stand on the sidewalk with that sign, then that is a free speech issue. And that is the thing: most blogs are private property, and they don’t have to allow everybody that “knocks” to come in, (and it is a good thing too, or we’d be swamped in ads,) they can make the rules they want, and enforce them how they want, and if you don’t like that, it is a free country and you are welcome to go elsewhere.

    Also, you said:
    “The ever annoying Ross Williams said:”
    And then later:
    I haven’t done anything, I’m not the one doing the name calling here.

    Uhmm, right.

  88. From the article al linked to:
    Chilcote was beaten by a teen with a baseball bat Saturday night as he left a MAX train at Gresham Central Transit Center, one of the agency’s most crime-infested stops.

    Okay, I’m gonna nitpick this one to make a point about the sensationalist reporting surrounding this story.

    From 2005-2006 Tri-Met crime statistics for Gresham Central:

    Robberies: 3
    Assaults: 1
    Menacing and harassment: 4
    Thefts and purse snatchings: 0
    Vehicle theft/prowl/mischief: 26
    Graffiti/mischief/theft of Tri-Met property: 2
    Other offenses: 3
    Total: 39

    Unless The Oregonian has access to other data, Gresham Central doesn’t come anywhere close to “most” crime-infested; most stations with park & ride lots had higher totals, and 4 violent crimes in two years is toward the low end for eastside stations.

    With a total of 39 reported offenses over a two year period, two thirds of them involving parked cars, “crime-infested” is scarcely a defensible adjective at all.

    Maybe The Oregonian really does have access to more information. I can see that a lot of stuff that happens goes unreported to the police: I suspect menacing and harassment happens FAR more often than reported to the police, and there probably are a fair number of petty thefts that don’t get reported. The statistics also don’t cover things like drug dealing, public drunkenness, loud domestic disputes, and general rowdiness, or people who aren’t doing anything but just look dangerous — the sort of stuff that isn’t really a threat to your person or property, but makes people feel uncomfortable when it’s around. Perception-of-safety stuff.

    But I doubt very many assaults, robberies, or significant thefts go unreported. And when the available evidence is that Gresham Central is a “high crime” area only when compared to the low rates of other stations in Gresham, phrases like “one of the agency’s most crime-infested stops” are alarmist and sensationalist, not clear-headed, objective reporting.

    “One of the agency’s most crime-infested stops” probably would be a fair summary of 82nd Avenue or Lloyd Center, both of which have high numbers for violent crime (relatively speaking). Or Gateway, which has the highest total crime on the system because of its park & ride.

    But Gresham Central has about 1/6th the crime of Gateway, and (taking out the car prowls for a fair comparison), 1/5th the crime of 82nd or Lloyd Center, or 1/3 the crime of Hollywood or the Rose Quarter. As “crime-infested” goes, it doesn’t even come close to the top.

  89. After 31 years of service, in addition to arming guards that patrol both the trains and platforms, SkyTrain in Vancouver, BC is planning on putting turnstiles on boarding platforms to keep the riffraff criminals and offenders who don’t pay off the trains. And we all know how Portland officials are just crazy about trying to imitate Vancouver after taking junket excursions to view those dog and pony shows up North. With the exception of daylight time peak periods, the locals in the Vancouver area do not feel at all safe riding their version of Max. It should also be noted, as described to me this past weekend by an acquaintance who lives there, peak period traffic in Vancouver is a congestion nightmare.

  90. Well, 21 years….SkyTrain opened in 1986; same year as the first MAX line.
    We may well undervalue the advantage of a less than completely grade separated rail transit system such as SkyTrain. The fact that MAX stations are on street level, in some cases just wider sidewalks, with little or no separation from the coming and going of motorists, pedestrians and bicyclists offers one of the surest deterents to mis-behavior…community eyes.
    Every conversation about preventing crime eventually gets to the fact that there are not enough cops for every street, every station, every train, and that the key to safe and secure community property whether parks, streets or transit is a watchful citizenry.

  91. The fact that MAX stations are on street level, in some cases just wider sidewalks, with little or no separation from the coming and going of motorists, pedestrians and bicyclists offers one of the surest deterents to mis-behavior…community eyes.”

    WHAT?!

  92. Hey, its Crime Prevention 101…the more people in a place the lower the likelihood of poor behavior; not the absolute number of incidents, but the incidents per capita, which is what we care about. Bad guys like their privacy.
    Why do neighborhood associations organize “Neighbor Watch” efforts? Same deal.
    I think a lot of generational angst and anti-immigrant feeling underlies this latest “crime scare.” That and the fact that Portland has shed some its marginal citizens and their sometimes questionable behavior to surrounding suburbs.
    Interstate MAX…on soon to be Cesar Chavez Boulevard… was warm, quiet and peaceful the other day as I rode up and down to various destinations. Way more fun than the old 5 bus.

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