According to Willamette Week, Nancy Pelosi loves our Streetcar, and this morning’s O has Jim Oberstar waxing poetic about our transit.
Can we translate this love into cash?
According to Willamette Week, Nancy Pelosi loves our Streetcar, and this morning’s O has Jim Oberstar waxing poetic about our transit.
Can we translate this love into cash?
53 responses to “Congressional Leaders Love Streetcar”
Well the streetcar is cute! The tourists love it, (especially the bell) and PSU students love it,Powell’s books love it, and all the folks along its route love it!
It’s indeed lovable!
Hell, I would love to have F-R-E-E transit at my beck and call if I went to PSU or up to 23rd or Broadway to party!
Hell, I would love to have F-R-E-E transit at my beck and call if I went to PSU or up to 23rd or Broadway to party!
Al, if you went up to 23rd, your ride would not be free.
43% of the streetcar’s stops are located outside of fareless square.
– Bob R.
Bob, I’ve got news for you, very very few people actually pay to ride the street car!
[although some do i know, and some have trimet passes i know that too!]
Hey, its cute, its lovable, I think its great that we are bringing back the early 1900’s!
Al –
If the streetcar were using heritage stock, I’d be more likely to agree with you about the “early 1900’s” remark, but today’s streetcars are quite evolved from those of that time period, just as internal combustion automobiles have changed quite a bit, beyond the common elements of four wheels, a motor, and a seat.
Differences in modern streetcars, for example: Low-floor boarding, articulated cars, automated stop announcements, GPS location, air conditioning, wheelchair ramps, more boarding doors, single-person operation. (Yes, Erik, I know that there are still TriMet buses in the fleet which do not have air conditioning, and I support replacing them soon.)
It is not news to me that there is fare evasion on the streetcar, nor is it news that a significant percentage of streetcar trips occur within fareless square. But by what standard do you define “very very few people”, and what is your source for that information?
Not as many people ride solely within fareless square as you might think… a few months ago, for example, I did a stop-by-stop analysis of Yellow Line boardings and found that a maximum of 14% of all rides are entirely within fareless square (and you get up to 14% only if you believe nobody boarding or alighting at Rose Quarter is transferring from/to a paid bus).
The Portland Streetcar, of course, is a shorter route than the Yellow Line, and has a higher percentage of stops within fareless square, but the notion that the streetcar is predominantly free just isn’t true.
– Bob R.
Bob-
Ok, so the streetcars of today are not actual early 1900’s construction.
HOWEVER, they do travel at about the same speed as the early 1900’s cars, and they get tied up in traffic as the early 1900’s streetcars.
And its my understanding, although I cannot quote the source right at this very moment, that far less than 50% of users actually pay the fare.
There are fare inspectors on the streetcar from time to time, and about 90% of people do indeed have fares. Of course, they only check the areas outside of fareless square, so if we assume that everyone in fareless square is staying in fareless square, and that none of them have a pass or anything like that, then indeed it is possible that less than 50% of people actually pay. Not far less, mind you, but less…
The average speed of traffic in urban areas hasn’t changed much in the last hundred years. There is fairly famous study on New York city that compared the average speed of horses in the 1890s vs cars in modern times and found them very comparable… I’m not sure what your point is, most of the trips that people take on the streetcar aren’t very long anyways, people aren’t trying to get from Gresham to Hillsboro on the thing, so absolute speed isn’t a very high priority compared to other things like wait times…
But since you brought it up, I do have a certain nostalgia for the 1900’s era streetcars: They didn’t stop, (or even slow down very much,) for people to get on and off like these modern ones do. Of course, it was a good way to break your leg, (or worse,) but it was faster way to board than the modern method.
I’ve got nothing against the street car btw. And I’ve got nothing against free transit. I just want fair and equitable transit services spread across the service area. Why should people who live in Hillsboro have to pay $1.75 to move around Hillsboro when the citizens of Portland get to move around Portland for free!
Really, the biggest problem I have with “track” transit is its huge cost to build and it’s inherent lack of mobility, aka, an accident somewhere on the line means the whole line is shut down! That really is one hell of a negative as far as I am concerned!
But I understand the ‘snobs’ among us that wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus have no problem riding a street car or a max.
“But I understand the ‘snobs’ among us that wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus have no problem riding a street car or a max.”
>>>> Touché! And like a lot of “railfans” I knew when I was active in the hobby. I mean, we used to have slide shows, and you would hear hissing when a slide was shown of a bus! Sort of reminds me of the attitude in Portland.
In NYC back in the 70’s, a separate fanclub was formed for fans of all types of transit, including buses, just because of this type of thing.
“Differences in modern streetcars, for example: Low-floor boarding, articulated cars, automated stop announcements, GPS location, air conditioning, wheelchair ramps, more boarding doors, single-person operation.”
>>>> So do modern buses have all these things.
And a lot more operational flexibility, to boot.
Nancy Pelosi is a brain dead liberal automaton. She would like anything that costs a lot of taxpayers dollars and creates more jobs–generally referred to as “earmarks”–especially jobs that help out her illegal alien constituents.
This would make her statistics look good–i.e. “See how many jobs I created! My policies are working!” when what this attitude is really doing is producing further burden on our infrastructure–moving it beyond the point of functionality and requiring extensive reinvestment.
On another board we discuss a lot about how to defeat her Ag Jobs bill, refrring to jobs which should have been eliminated by machinery decades ago, saving us a major social crisis.
So Nancy Pelosi is impressed with the Streetcar. Maybe she would like to personally pay the additional subsidy for each ride–instead of voting appropriations that US taxpayers have to pay for. And then in exchange she gets to vote for some other congressional district’s pork barrel project. Maybe Swifts ought to open up a plant in Washington, DC!
Actually I luv the Streetcar too, sort of. What about that German-made diesel rail bus? Wouldn’t that be more cost effective and have biodiesel potential, too.
Streetcars are not that “great”. It used to take me just about an hour to travel from Lloyd Center to SoWhat. What is that 1MPH? I think they should just give free cars to all the poor people and eliminate the transit system. then see people’s status really go through the roof!
Nancy Pelosi is a brain dead liberal automaton.
Tell us how you really feel, Ron!
She would like anything that costs a lot of taxpayers dollars and creates more jobs–generally referred to as “earmarks”–especially jobs that help out her illegal alien constituents.
What evidence do you have that streetcar construction jobs have been filled by illegal aliens?
This would make her statistics look good–i.e. “See how many jobs I created!
It would seem to me that under-the-table illegal jobs wouldn’t be counted in the formal statistics.
So Nancy Pelosi is impressed with the Streetcar.
Yes, so it would seem – thus the title of the article.
Maybe she would like to personally pay the additional subsidy for each ride
That seems an odd request to make of a legislator… we do elect them to come up with a budget, after all, even if we don’t always like what’s in the budget.
instead of voting appropriations that US taxpayers have to pay for.
I’d much rather legislators voted for more infrastructure projects rather than more war projects.
Actually I luv the Streetcar too, sort of. What about that German-made diesel rail bus? Wouldn’t that be more cost effective and have biodiesel potential, too.
I’m not sure how it would be more cost effective… does it carry more passengers per vehicle? (our streetcars are already full much of the day) If not, you’ll have higher operator costs and need more vehicles. Vehicles of a similar size that run on internal combustion tend to require more maintenance and repair that purely electric vehicles.
If it runs on rails, you’re still putting rails in the street, which is the most expensive part of the system. Eliminating overhead wire saves a bit, but only about 10%-15% of your infrastructure cost, which could be eaten up quick by higher operating costs.
How many rail bus manufacturers are there? How many vehicles in service? What is the track record on these things?
– Bob R.
Greg –
With wait times factored in, the median peak hour trip from Lloyd Center to South Waterfront (any MAX train to the 11th Ave. streetcar, then streetcar to Gibbs) is 42 minutes. When the transit mall reopens, with either direct Green Line service or transfers to mall service from the Red/Blue lines, this trip will be 10 minutes shorter. When the eastside streetcar is built (assuming it goes forward), the trip will be closer to 20-25 minutes and require no transfers.
The shortest travel distance by car, according to Google Maps, is 3.5 miles. So even comparing the longer MAX-to-Streetcar journey to the most direct car journey, the effective average speed of the transit trip is 5MPH (in actuality the transit trip is moving faster than that, but the particular route is circuitous.)
Certainly not a route choice that is a win for transit, at least not until other alternatives come online, but no nearly as dire as what you present. (For example, if the Caruthers Crossing is built for Milwaukie MAX, there will be several N-S transit choices on the east side which will likely connect to transit crossing this new bridge.)
But a common misconception about transit is that it must compete with all trips in order to be effective. The streetcar serves the trips that it does serve well (over 10,000 of them per weekday now), and people who aren’t well-served by it won’t ride it, even if it is “free”.
My house on the east side is particularly well served by the #71 bus, as well as MAX, and I’ll ride whichever one is appropriate for my destination. But there are some trips which transit, even in my relatively well-served neighborhood, simply can’t accomplish in a reasonable time, but I don’t use those trips which won’t work as an excuse to advocate for dismantling the entire transit system.
(Incidentally, Greg, a large chunk of the folks who are transit-dependent, who you want to give free cars to (are you going to fuel and maintain them, too?), aren’t able to drive, or have cars available anyway but need to take transit for a particular reason. Are you going to hire a driver for them? Currently, demand-response trips cost about $28 per ride to serve in the Portland area. Your “free cars” scenario either wouldn’t serve the people who most need transit, or would cost more than transit to implement if you want to serve everyone in need.)
But please, keep advocating for getting rid of transit. I suggest you gather signatures or run for office on that platform. Let us know how much support you get.
– Bob R.
“Streetcars are not that “great”. It used to take me just about an hour to travel from Lloyd Center to SoWhat. What is that 1MPH?”
It is like 3MPH as the crow flies, but more like 5MPH if you insist on sticking to roads instead of swimming diagonally across the Willamette and climbing a big staircase at the end of the trip.
But I never understood why you took that route in the first place. If you plug that origin and destination into the transit planner, it tells you to get on the #8, (frequent service: 10 trips/hour in the morning rush hour,) which makes that trip in about half the time, mainly because it don’t have to travel another mile in each direction out of the way from where you are going in order to make a transfer…
The comparison I make is if you flew United Airlines from PDX to GEG (Spokane) it takes most of the day, and costs a lot of money too, all so that you can transfer in Denver. That doesn’t mean that planes are awful and we should all drive, or United sucks or anything like that. What it does mean is that you weren’t paying attention when you bought the ticket, and as such, you didn’t make the best choice for your trip… (And: Horizon has a direct flight, it takes an hour.)
I certainly understand why light rail make sense connecting Hillsboro, Portland, Gresham, and eventually Vancouver. Nobody can argue the value of the airport max. The green line is a little harder to understand, but, in consideration of the future of petroleum based fuels, which is indeed bleak, even the green line makes sense.
But it speaks volumes about America that bus service could be provided on all these local lines, at no cost to install,using existing bureaucracies, however for some reason bus service going over the same streets that street car service will go over won’t do the job?
SOMEBODY TELL ME WHY?
[other than developers like it, of course if cities throw in huge tax incentives for them to build!]
Al –
I think the argument boils down to is just how effective you think the streetcar and other subsidies are at spurring development that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise, and how long it will take those incremental additional developments to pay of the subsidies in tax revenue, combined with the value of the number of additional transit and walking trips you think the streetcar will serve over and beyond a bus.
(Personally, I think that now that it has been proven that there is a market for denser transit-oriented urban living than Portland has traditionally supported, less overall subsidy or subsidy with more strings attached is appropriate moving forward.)
Another issue to consider is that even an articulated bus with multiple boarding doors (such as the buses used on Eugene’s EmX BRT line) doesn’t carry as many passengers as the Portland Streetcar vehicle, so to serve today’s ridership you’d need more vehicles and more operators, which can erode any potential cost savings.
As for the Green Line, I view it as a long term investment… I think there will be a time a decade or more from now when serious attention is given to serving Clark County with high capacity transit in the I-205 corridor. With the completion of the Green Line, we’ll have a direct transitway from Clackamas to Airport Way with lots of room for growth, and it will need only minor fiddling on the Oregon side to turn it into a N-S line serving Clark County (the river crossing and where to go in Clark County will be the big issues.) By that time, the line may already directly serve Oregon City as well.
It’s not hard to imagine all these regional and town centers on the east side being served by a continuous, dedicated transit ROW, mostly grade-separated.
– Bob R.
Bob R;
Personally I hate automobiles and am a big fan of transit. I suppose the urban living argument does indeed hold water.
The streetcar is lovable, as ridiculous as that sounds it is true. Buses are ugly, the farthest thing from lovable. Electric based transit is better for the environment , can’t argue with that either. But that “fixed” route thing bothers me. One breaks down and the whole line is useless. That makes the whole system vulnerable, which makes the huge investment in a vulnerable system questionable to say the least.
BTW: this article was in the Oregonian today
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1189736713286420.xml&coll=7
“But that “fixed” route thing bothers me. One breaks down and the whole line is useless. That makes the whole system vulnerable, which makes the huge investment in a vulnerable system questionable to say the least.”
Well, no, you can bridge across a single failure point with rail quite easily. Like yesterday afternoon at rush hour, there was a big gas leak near pioneer courthouse square. So what did they do? They unloaded the trains a few stops before the leak, and then turned around and went the other way. The people? Most of them walked around the area and got on the trains waiting on the other side of the leak, but a few rode the bus that they managed to press into service to help with bridging. (The id number of the bus was 1203. Fred Hansen himself was driving it, he said he was lost and didn’t know where the bus was supposed to go, so he thought he’d shuttle MAX passengers for the fun of it. :-P ) The flexibility of rubber wheeled transit is also it’s problem. It has to sit in the same traffic with all the cars, so it tends to be slow and/or unreliable at the very times you need it most.
“But that “fixed” route thing bothers me. One breaks down and the whole line is useless. That makes the whole system vulnerable, which makes the huge investment in a vulnerable system questionable to say the least.”
>>>> Right. And also the fact that you can’t offer any type of limited-stop or express service, which is why I was opposed to Yellow Line MAX and streetcars on the East Side.
Bob R.,
If you would go to a large construction site, to a landscaping or nursery business, to many hospitality enterprises, to fast food places—you would see quite a few illegal aliens. These people do figure into employment statistics, so they are not invisible or completely in an “underground economy,” thus politicians can cite them in economic discussions.
Because of the war project our economic underpinnings are so strapped that it is also dangerous to pursue unneeded infrastructure expenditures. Notice I said “unneeded.”
Consider the following trouble signs, that reflect seriously bad news for the US economy.
1. A Euro now costs 1.40 US
2. An ounce of gold now costs $700
3. The US must go to newly wealthy commodity exporting countries to sell its treasury bonds to finance US debt
4. Trade imbalance is at an all time high
5. 2 billion Asians are ready to give us serious economic competition.
6. International radicals are relentlessly urging Central Banks to get out of US dollar holdings.
I think I have a good overall view of the strategy of quite a number of liberals (and some conservatives, too. I belong to no political party.) It stems from “vested interests” to put it in a nutshell. That is, to prove, using largely meaningless statistics, that your policies are good for Americans. It is a defacto social engineering that articially swells the population, the “economy” and hence the demand on the infrastructure, in the process. What is meaningful is the contentment of Americans with their quality of life. We could head into a downward spiral in which continued excessive government spending requires more tax money. leading to job outsourcing and insourcing, leading to more undocumented migration, leading to more overburdened infrastructure, and back to higher taxes.
But if a high quality of life include overcrowded conditions, too, I guess what I say won’t have any meaning to you.
With affirmative action programs, yes, there are a lot of illegal aliens who benefit from government spending. There might even be some who benefit from local light rail or streetcar projects; I know because I work with them. There are certainly a lot of them working in the Pearl District right now.
As far as “odd requests” I am fee to make outlandish comments in support of a political argument, once in a while, can’t I?
I hope that sensibility ends up winning. I did see the Oregonian article and the group as a whole–not just Pelosi–seemed impressed with our overall transit system. I, however, am alarmed as I see certain costs rising dramatically, which those particular visitors may not be aware of.
Bob R. I would make a suggestion that you go to the http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
and see if you think the warning signs they keep writing on are just “Chicken Little” nonsense. I don’t see any particular party bias in what they say. When I started reading it three years ago gold was $275 per ounce. Today it reached $716/oz.
My comment about N. Pelosi? Just havin’ some fun, to see what would happen….
FRED HANSON WAS DRIVING THE BUS?(there is no bus numbered 1203 btw, i work there, i should know)
NO WAYYYY! YOUR KIDDING ME!!
and turning around and going the other way?
What? You mean they all turn around and go the other way, AT THE SAME TIME….your making this stuff up!!
LOL!!! u got me laughing!!LOL!! :>)
From the Oregonian article:
“The administration has fought efforts to provide more money for essential maintenance of the nation’s crumbling roads and bridges, they said. It skewed the rules for transit rail projects to favor buses and tries to give public highways over to private companies in schemes to let them profit from tolls.”
This is a lot of loaded terminology for an unbiased article: “fought” “skewed” “schemes” are volatile words, I think.
Is our infrastructure “crumbling?” In spots, yes. This statement could ce construed as a “glittering generality.” Why doesn’t the O article get more precise and cite some statistics, especially ones that elucidate the operable condition of a structure–not how many lanes it has, its age, or its accomodation for alternative transport. These are irrelevant or secondary criteria.
So Portland planners have lined up some big Congressional names to boost their bevy of projects. Is this the appropriate example to the rest of the nation, when other foolish expenditures have placed this nations’s finances in a significant degree of peril?
So Portland planners have lined up some big Congressional names to boost their bevy of projects. Is this the appropriate example to the rest of the nation, when other foolish expenditures have placed this nations’s finances in a significant degree of peril?
Portland politicans are just about as nimrodic (my own invented word) as these national politicians. Run their big fat jaws and make themselves look important! Maybe Portland should also be bragging to the congressional delegates how many businesses and families have fled the city too!? Or showcase their superfund site? Or how their densification mandates are somehow desirable? Yeah right. There aren’t even any major companies headquartered in Portland any more unless you call OHSU a business which it’s not it’s one of those quirky unique to Portland semi-quasi governmental agencies like PDC and Port of Portland. When the business license comes up for renewal for my consulting company in a couple of months I’m definitely not going to renew it – I don’t have a Portland office any more. Now I don’t have to pay for Tri-Met taxes, COP Taxes and Multnomah County taxes. There are more taxes in your communist enclave than most people have HEARD of. Like a Personal Property tax. What is that all about? Just another one to add to their list that has said ADIOS to Portland! It’s a shame that in such a great state like Oregon we have a backwards thinking city trying to run the show. I can’t wait until the day comes that Beaverton eclipses Portland. It’s inevitable. Portland is landlocked in the tiniest county in the state. Washington County is huge and can grow.
foolish expenditures have placed this nations’s finances in a significant degree of peril?
We elect people to represent our interests. The idea that there is some objective definition of what the priorities should be is nonsense taught by high school civics teachers. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t foolish expenditures, there are. But it does mean that the final judgments about priorities are political, not intellectual.
First of all, to the individual that claimed I was responsible for turning this blog into a firestorm, let me point out that there are 20 some posts before this one, and this is the first time I am commenting…
That said, I would like to comment on Mr. Oberstar’s quote in the Oregonian:
Portland is a template for America — it’s an inspiration, a transportation innovator. This is the age of transportation enlightenment right here in Portland.
What is innovative about stealing capital funds from bus service – the mode of transit used by 2/3rds of Portland transit users, and serves far greater geographical reach – and apportioning them to the far more limited MAX and Streetcar service?
What is innovative about failing to invest in bus stop improvements that would improve the total transit experience (to steal a TriMet line), such as improved bus shelters, more benches, better lighting, safer crosswalks, schedules that are posted and updated with schedule changes, readerboards that announce the next bus arrival, traffic signal priortization, and bus stop pads that aren’t repeatedly damaged?
What is innovative about failing to maintain the bus fleet to FTA standards?
What is innovative about forcing bus riders to be jammed into a 40′ bus that is severely over-capacity?
What is innovative about failing to take any action to help improve schedule adherence/reliability of busses?
The ONLY thing TriMet and Metro HAVE been innovative in, is leveraging federal dollars for rail projects. Period. When the original MAX line was built, both the eastside and westside segments, TriMet had been doing a good job of improving bus services at the same time. Once voters voted down South/North and TriMet had the grand idea to build MAX to the airport, TriMet decided to self-fund those projects – using dollars that should have gone towards improving bus services.
Somehow, I doubt Mr. Oberstar rode a bus. Nor do I think Mr. DeFazio rode the bus either. And if these two individuals were accompanied by Mr. Hansen or any member of the Metro Council, somehow I doubt they would ride the bus, because the bus isn’t good enough for them. (And if some smart-ass wants to claim that they did ride the bus, was it a 2800 series bus, that read “V.I.P. Coach” on the headsign, and operate on a regular route – or was it a charter?)
I’d like to see these folks ride the 12 line sometime in the 6:00 PM hour – AFTER rush hour. And then tell me how innovative TriMet is in transit operations, and how innovative Metro is in funding quality public transit for the entire region. But I know they won’t, because God forbid politicians actually break away from their Lobbyist friends and actually sit down with normal, everyday folk.
The streetcar maybe liked by politicians whom are socialist thinkers and assume they are elected to exercise control over the people, and the streetcar may be liked by those who like spending massive amounts of taxpayer dollars so they can play with full sized trains and ring the bell, but the streetcar is really a fleecing of public dollars.
First there are the extreme costs of constructing the system and building the vehicles that will never be recovered. The fixed routes carry only a small fraction of the over all population of the region, but are ballyhooed as a development tool. In actuality, history along the current streetcar route demonstrates for new and increased development to occur, it required property tax abatements, other taxpayer subsidies and/or cheap taxpayer funded land supplied by PDC. The taxpayers are again fleeced and who’s to say the development would not have occurred anyway if the same dollar amount subsidies were offered without the streetcar. Additionally motorist taxpayers are fleeced because so much of the routing gums up and obstructs traffic adding to congestion and fuel consumption.
And then there are the fares – approximately one-half of what TriMet charges for bus and Max service – a fare structure that only pays for 21 percent of the true costs of operation. So again the taxpayers are fleeced along with TriMet fleeced since a streetcar fare is transferable to TriMet service and the tram. Furthermore, motorists are again fleeced in that parking meter revenue is used to subsidize streetcar money pit operations rather than for roads.
As a response to this fleecing of the taxpayers, streetcar supporters and activists continually point to the increasing ridership numbers. Michael Powell of Powell’s Books for example spoke of those numbers when giving testimony before the City Council in support of funding the Eastside streetcar loop. However, as previously mentioned in this thread, much of the streetcar patronage is also riding for free (and at total taxpayer expense). Fare evasion is commonplace. Now I liken that to if all the books at Powell’s were half the price compared to other book stores, and/or all books were a dollar or less, or better yet free compared to the true cost of providing the book, Powell’s would see a significant increase in patronage. Americans like bargains, but they should not be handed out like candy at taxpayer expense. The streetcar should be run in a manner to the extent the ridership pays for the costs of service and the routes are kept off high traffic volume arterials, similar to sound financial business practices that Michael Powell undoubtedly uses when running his business that also is undoubtedly void of obstructions in the isles that would create congestion in his store.
Erik,
It’s communism, that’s what it is. They want to force everyone onto the cattle cars to commute and have everyone living in ghetto cramped housing and extort as much $$$ in taxes from you as possible! In Salem I noticed something profound – they actually have recessed instead of curb extensions so when the busses there pull over to pick up someone they don’t impede traffic. Why can’t Portland be as innovative? I also noticed there are lots of bike lanes in Salem, too – and Salem has a beautiful waterfront park too. Portland is over rated.
Now I liken that to if all the books at Powell’s were half the price compared to other book stores, and/or all books were a dollar or less, or better yet free compared to the true cost of providing the book, Powell’s would see a significant increase in patronage.
Wait till Amazon launches its unlimited view online all books service for a monthly subscription. Then we won’t NEED Powell’s any more. If more employers let their employees work from home offices we wouldn’t need transit. I think transit should only take people around who are destitute or disabled. Subsidize non-profits or the taxi companies. Everyone else needs to pony up and buy a car! Enough of this early 1900’s asinine train system that the whole STATE and now COUNTRY is subsidizing for the elect few who live in a 20 block radius.
And then there are the fares – approximately one-half of what TriMet charges for bus and Max service
You lost me on that one, Terry. If you buy a ticket on Streetcar, it’s exactly the same price as a TriMet 1/2 zone ticket, and has exactly the same transfer usage on the TriMet system as that TriMet ticket.
It IS valid all-day on Streetcar, but it’s only valid for 2 hours on TriMet vehicles, like the TriMet ticket. The rationale for the all-day validity on Streetcar is that the fare won’t take you much more than a half-mile or so (compared to many miles on TriMet).
I think transit should only take people around who are destitute or disabled. Subsidize non-profits or the taxi companies. Everyone else needs to pony up and buy a car!
Congratulations, Greg, you manage to be both classist and engage in social engineering at the same time. You’re going to REQUIRE me to make a multi-thousand-dollar capital investment in order to use the public roads? Thanks.
Greg, Greg, Greg… so much to address in one comment:
It’s communism, that’s what it is.
Yeah, all those businesses operating around town, and citizens voting, and people running for office — just another arm of the Politburo. Do you even know what Communism is/was?
They want to force everyone onto the cattle cars
Are you jumping from Communism to a Nazi reference?
Who, just who, is being forced onto cattle cars in Portland?
to commute
Oh, you were making a joke, I see… how tasteful.
and have everyone living in ghetto cramped housing
Is anyone being forced at gunpoint to live in condos that are still selling at a higher price per square ft. than conventional suburban housing? Anyone been shot yet because they wouldn’t sign on the dotted line? Hmmm?
and extort as much $$$ in taxes from you as possible!
As a small business owner, I pay TriMet taxes directly, and I know exactly what I pay. I think the price is fair, and I’ll continue to vote for officials who support transit.
In Salem I noticed something profound – they actually have recessed instead of curb extensions
Salem is chock full of curb extensions, you need to have more of a look around before jumping to conclusions. They even have a Salem transit mall (of sorts) and a Fareless Square zone.
Why can’t Portland be as innovative?
Portland and Salem are both innovators.
Thanks to walkability initiatives in Salem, my grandmother, who does not drive, was able to stay in her home until the age of 96. Now she divides her time between a senior apartment in Oak Grove and the house in Salem, but she’s still going strong. Without a walkable community, her independent lifestyle would have been impeded long ago. (And without the private automobile, the current arrangement wouldn’t work either — see, us socialistic transit supporters value cars, too.)
I also noticed there are lots of bike lanes in Salem, too
You’d better take that one up with Terry – I don’t think Salem has a bicycle tax either. Damn kamikaze freeloading bicyclers tearing down the fabric of our society again.
and Salem has a beautiful waterfront park
Yes, they sure do. Maintained with looted taxpayer dollars, but beautiful nonetheless. Kindof like Portland’s.
Portland is over rated.
Certainly not by you, I see. Well, I guess that’s balance of some kind.
– Bob R.
More Salem Curb Extensions:
Here
and here
and here
and over here
and on this busy street
and even over here.
Let me know if you’d like to check out any others — there’s plenty to choose from.
– Bob R.
And since you brought up Amazon.com, you might want to use them as a resource for books about communism — you might wish to do some reading up. Or, if you don’t mind supporting a successful local independent business that also supports the streetcar, check out the selection of books on communism from Powell’s (who partners with Amazon to deliver some titles — very capitalistic of them.)
– Bob R.
Bob and Chris,
Despite my intransigence I still do LOVE the site! Keep up the good work.
I have a very important question: If there is a curb extension that causes the bike lane to end and forces bicycles to take the main lane before an intersection, is that social engineering? And if it is, what kind? (FYI: There isn’t a bus on this street.)
What I meant was curb extensions for buses. In many of your pictures there are curb extensions at the intersections. What I found on Wallace Road and down Liberty and Commercial are pullouts so the buses don’t impede traffic.
And there aren’t any curb extensions here where I live either :) In fact, there aren’t even CURBS, streets or sidewalks here.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=salem,+or&ie=UTF8&ll=44.94033,-123.035159&spn=0.001304,0.001827&t=h&z=19&om=1
What I meant was curb extensions for buses. In many of your pictures there are curb extensions at the intersections. What I found on Wallace Road and down Liberty and Commercial are pullouts so the buses don’t impede traffic.
And there aren’t any curb extensions here where I live either :) In fact, there aren’t even CURBS, streets or sidewalks here yet I still haven’t escaped the Portland MSA. Wow I just realized I am almost right at 123 Long. and 45 Lat. exactly. Once Keizer jumps the river we’ll have new subdivisions all the way from there to McMinnville. In no time we’ll look like Bethany out here too except I’ll be laughing all the way to the bank right before I move to Alaska!
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.957536,72.685547&ie=UTF8&ll=45.108484,-123.067217&spn=0.040223,0.070982&t=h&z=14&om=1
Greg –
I do see a lot of bus pullouts around Salem, and they are a good idea where there is room for them and traffic volumes are light enough for buses to pull out without eroding schedule performance.
The paradox, though, is that as congestion increases, bus pullouts become less and less effective, but curb extension stops become more and more effective, but may result (depending on the circumstances) in more congestion.
The dividing line for me is this: At peak times, on average, are there more people riding on the bus than there are people driving behind it. If so, it is to the benefit of the majority of travelers to have curb extensions rather than pullouts. At non-peak times, the issue is usually moot except on streets with a single lane of travel in each direction.
– Bob R.
hey folks, check this out:
http://maxredline.typepad.com/maxredline/2007/09/saving-the-plan.html
I find Mr. Halsteads comments pretty insightful actually. How are his comments deserving of the words “firestorm?” I sure as hell don’t see that.
Unfortunately, the rider ship numbers are misleading, basically because they include the fare less square riders. Most of those people would not pay if they had to so including them in the rider ship statistics is pretty misleading.
The pearl wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the streetcar. That’s a fact. As I said earlier, people who ride the streetcar wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus, riding with “those” people.
Hey its America, the farthest thing from “commie” on the planet, not matter what the anti tax folks say!
Re: Firestorm
Actually, according to Google and my RSS reader, the word “firestorm” never ever appeared on this site until Erik just mentioned it himself.
– Bob R.
hehe, erik must be day dreaming!
speaking of the street car, here is another article:
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=418003&category=22101
books about communism
Hey Bob,
I went to CCRLS and checked out the book you mentioned. It looks very interesting.
Thanks
I just can’t agree with all the people who complain about the streetcar and MAX. They must hate America and Jesus and their moms. They’re probably conspiring with Osama bin Laden and his extra super secret right hand man, Saddam Hussein, (a lookalike was hanged), because they hate freedom and liberty and the troops. They must want to make the good old US of A an Islamist state, these electric train haters.
You guys are getting too funny! Greg, cut it out. I think we need a break from this…
Al – that paragraph was a reference to another thread, in which I was away for a week and came back – and someone was kind enough to point out that the tone of the thread after my lone post changed.
Bob – whether or not “firestorm” was the word originally used or not, is besides the point. If it was the word I choosed, so be it. Is this a discussion forum about semantics or about transportation?
Wells – what does being against Streetcar have to do with Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or anything else? I believe I have made my arguments against further Streetcar/Light Rail development based upon facts with regards to transportation needs in the Portland metropolitan area as well as the state of the current bus system, which have been developed not only from first-hand experience using the current transit system in Portland bus also a slew of public (and quasi-public) documents available on the Internet which show transportation patterns in our region.
Clearly, your rant shows that the argument FOR further development of Streetcar/Light Rail, or as you say “electric train”, cannot be met on its own merits, so you have to resort to name-calling and other childish arguments that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the serious discussion.
Well Erik, as long rail opponents continue to argue that rail has no benefits and advantages over buses, who can take their argument seriously? Answer: only the small demographic of anti-rail, anti-gubmint, anti-sowshulist Armageddon chearleaders.
I have to admit, I’m a streetcar fan. Even if I usually hop on the 15 to get to it. It works for what I need, and serves areas I want to get to. Yeah, I could stay on a bus and cross it farther down, but that ends up being south of my destination.
My only real complaint is that on Friday and Saturday nights it ends too early. It would be a decent way to get some potential DUI’s to not drive if it ran until 2:30 or so.
Once again you have resorted to name calling – “anti-rail, anti-gubmit, anti-sowshulist Arageddon chearleaders”, and also have completely discounted my argument for bus service.
First of all, I am not “anti-rail”, and my arguments against more MAX and Streetcar expansions have nothing to do with whether I like trains or busses. In fact, I do like MAX – I supported the original two lines.
And I’d be happy to support more MAX, so long as TriMet didn’t neglect the bus system in the process, and so long as Metro completely discounted bus service as a serious mode of public transit. I also understand that MAX/Streetcar – any type of rail infrastructure – is extremely capital intensive, and therefore can’t be rolled out nearly as fast as bus service can. So until we have the money to build a railline everywhere, do we simply not provide any form of transit, or do we provide bus service – especially in areas where rail service does not make sense (i.e. hilly terrain, of which there is a LOT of in the Portland area), developing areas (i.e. Bethany, Happy Valley, Wilsonville, Sherwood), lesser-populated areas, or detached areas?
If I go to TriMet and Metro’s website, it would sound as though the “no service” option is the one to choose. Yet TriMet will provide some sort of bastardized service in order to collect the property and income taxes from those areas, without providing decent service. And Metro…well…it’s quite clear that Metro is simply in bed with the developers.
I do ride the 12-Barbur Blvd. bus every day and I see the impact on the bus service – late or MIA busses, mechanical breakdowns, busses in need of replacement. I read TriMet’s financial reports (what I can obtain) and have found other reports that show the state of the bus system. I’ve spoken with TriMet employees (both in official and unofficial capacities) who all have agreed on TriMet’s financial status – resulting from the financial depression post-9/11, combined with TriMet’s use of internal funding to build the Red and Yellow Lines, which depleted reserve and capital funds used for overall system improvements.
Why, just why, would I want to support more of the same? I have a job to go to tomorrow morning; I can’t wait 15 years for a MAX train to arrive at my home. I’d like to see QUALITY PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION throughout the region, not just in the narrow rail corridors.
On the other hand, if I were truly “anti-gubmint”, I might actually support reducing TriMet down to a MAX-only operation, because my home would be outside the 2.5 mile range for which TriMet could legally collect taxes. It’s clear that your mere argument rests solely on assinine assumptions and name-calling, rather than a thoughtful discussion over the state of current affairs – and how to improve the system.
Erik, why do you even bother to respond to this guy’s posts?
Whether to build modern rail lines or more ‘failing’ bus systems is extremely political, OLD Urbanist. The proponents of diesel-spewing buses are aligned with the world’s most powerful corporate interests and their priority of profit first, damn the public health and nature’s disintegrating ecosystem. During the Bush II era, fundamentalist christians have made that religion disastrously hypocritical.
Downtown Portland is a major regional attraction bringing in way too much traffic. The expense of premium rail transit is there justified. Running MAX lines outward into Portland’s suburbs will ultimate improve these bedroom community economies to where the market demand that’s driving various costs of living up in central city will be lessened throughout the region. I resent having these ideas called ‘assinine’ though they consider the interests of the majority and the greater good. I think that it is you two (Erik and Old fart) being argumentative and dismissive of other viewpoint.
Let’s all try to keep this civil. The name calling is not necessary.
Old fart, old fart, nyah nyah nyou nyou.
Sometimes, the only sane answer is irreverance.