Most of Sam Adam’s speech at City Club on Friday was about the more dismal question of how to pay for maintenance, but the Oregonian coverage leads with the idea for a City-wide Streetcar plan. Sam hearkened back to the 1920’s when Portland had over 100 miles of Streetcar tracks.
You can download the full program (MP3, 48M) from the City Club web site for a few weeks.
38 responses to “Web of Streetcars”
The only difference between the streetcar systems in the 1920’s weren’t run by the incompetant government – they were PRIVATE enterprises. Streetcars in the past were profitable enterprises – today’s systems are inefficient and attract an undesirable element and fare evaders. If this system were “so great” then why can’t it go private?
is it possible to recover paved over tracks? When I ride around certain parts of told (most notably Old Town, but others too) I see alot of partially paved-over, partially exposed tracks. Can those be restored or are they completely dead?
“Is it possible to recover paved over tracks?”
Not really. You can pull the rails and recycle them, (and it is generally cost effective to do that when you are repaving, I’m surprised that so many of them are still there,) but they were built for lighter cars than we use now, so you can’t really reuse them directly, they aren’t strong enough. Likewise, the gauge, (distance between the rails,) is wrong for the new streetcars, so you’d have to re-lay at least one side of the rails anyways. But even if we still used the old cars, (with the old trucks on them,) the rails were set on wooden ties that are 100 years old… And yes, they treated the ties, but wood just doesn’t last 100 years sitting in the ground, no matter what you do to it… So right now the rails are just kind of just laying there, encased in asphalt, and if you ran a streetcar over them, they’d probably sink into the ground on the first day…
As civilization has evolved, communities discover the value of performing certain tasks together. Sewers for example, libraries for another and of course, public transit. The latter was rescued from private sector bankrupcy and plays a key role in helping to keep air and water clean and making Portland a city that attracts people and investment.
I wonder how much Streetcar contributed to the record sale price of the Brewery Blocks announced today. What a wise public investment Streetcar has been. The more Streetcars the better; the ride across the Burnside Bridge will be fab.
As much as I might favor Streetcars for high density or major routes, I am not sure I would favor them for some of the above mentioned streets. I do believe they are valuable in assisting TOD planning; my issue would be: should historic established neighborhoods be faced with those impacts and the relevant decisions–or should we look to other areas of the Metro area to be considered for TOD?
The present building boom in Portland, and the much talked about massive population increase may subside when interest rates climb back up. Now developers are rushing to jump on the bandwagon of affordable financing–but that trend has already collpased around the country and will eventually here, too.
Lenny writes; ” The latter ( public transit) was rescued from private sector bankrupcy and plays a key role in helping to keep air and water clean and making”.
Much of the problems with the private sector were because government regulations made it difficult to operate.
And to day public transit does little to improve air, or water quality. In fact public transit may be a big contributor to the problem for a couple of reasons. One being that public transit fails to operate as needed in poor neighborhoods thus leaving low income people without public transit. These people then make do the best they can often with poorly maintained vehicles that pollute more than the newer cars. Secondly public transit often uses diesel buses that get low mileage per gallon and thus send up more exhaust than cars that carry an equal number of passengers.
MW
Private streetcar companies struggled to make profit and meet operating expenses from the very start. Competition led to buyouts, mergers and consolidations. Municipal regulations were more supportive than restrictive.
Of course, the real culprit that finally brought down the streetcar lines was the popularity of automobiles, Jitneys and taxi’s. And, when Henry Ford made his famous claim that he wanted to pay his workers enough so they could buy a Model T, he was probably less interested in fair wages than eliminating transit as an employee choice for getting to work. It’s telling that the first electric rail lines to completely fail were the interurbans rather than inner-city streetcars.
It’s ridiculous to argue against electric streetcars as they continue to be well patronized and popular. On the streetcar today, a group of fabulous Italian student tourists appeared to thoroughly enjoy the ride, and I was reminded of the Italian meaning of life, “Lifa. Heeey! It eesa to liva, to liva! Heeeey! Mama mia!”
“I wonder how much Streetcar contributed to the record sale price of the Brewery Blocks announced today.”
>>>> ZILCH
“If this system were “so great” then why can’t it go private?”
>>>> Portland is not big enough for private transit operation. It doesn’t even need rail operations. Now, the new Metro in Athens, Greece was a public/private partnership and is operated by a private company. But Athens is a megalopolis; Portland is not.
There is really only one private urban transit system in the world today and that is in Hong Kong. Obviously every transit supporter would love to see private transit systems again that are self sufficent and able to fund their own expansion instead of now where every passenger is actually a financial burden on the system. Unfortunately private “quality” transit (with good headways, long hours, good coverage of an area, etc) don’t pencil out today hence why 99.9% of transit systems are now publicly owned. Transit is now seen as a public service worthy of public support. It was 1920s-1960s government policy that definately killed the private transit systems much more than GM did… electric utility companies were required to sell off the transit systems in the 1930s, street construction and new one way street grids many times required the transit companies to relay track at their own cost according to the new street grid if they wanted to retain rail transit (such as PDX-Oregon City Interurban over the Hawthorne Bridge in the mid 1950s), labor laws requiring two man operation on streetcars with only one for buses, streetcar systems had to pay for repaving the streets they operated on despite streetcars not even needing paved streets, private right of ways (which avoided traffic) were taxed to name a few. Plus it didnt help that streetcars were viewed as noisy, dirty and outdated while diesel buses were viewed as quiet and clean and progressive, which now is seen as truely absurd.
Perhaps if motorists covered more of their costs like paying per trip for roads, then transit could be self sufficent again (I realize there is a gas tax covering road costs although it covers about as much for road maintainance as a transit rider’s fare covers the transit operation).
Transit also has to be faster to carry more passengers in the same amount of time to get a more efficient use of labor and equipment. That bus or streetcar that is stuck in traffic and makes only one round trip per hour could make 4 round trips per hour for the same operating cost plus look at all the extra passengers it would have picked up in that same time period.
“If this system were “so great” then why can’t it go private?”
Sure … as soon as all the roads and highways “go private” and give up all the direct and hidden subsidies that make them possible, including their evasion of the true cost of pollution, oil (which includes a chunk of the military budget to secure MIddle Eastern oil supplies), taxpayer financed road and highway budgets, etc. etc.
I wonder what the developers of the Brewery Blocks, strong Streetcar supporters, think about its impact on property values along its alignment.
Most of the corridors noted as potential Streetcar routes are already zoned for more intense development. The idea was to bring more housing density to transit and commercial corridors…more riders and more customers. Seems to be working. Time to put housing on the vacant lots and parking lots of NE Broadway/Weidler, NE Sandy Blvd, N Williams/Vancouver, SE Hawthorne, maybe even SE Milwaukie Avenue.
Time to put housing on the vacant lots and parking lots of NE Broadway/Weidler, NE Sandy Blvd, N Williams/Vancouver, SE Hawthorne, maybe even SE Milwaukie Avenue.
Best thing to look for along a prospective streetcar line: vacant land within two blocks of a proposed station.
The challenge will be that the two key local funding sources for Streetcar…TIF and parking meters…will not be available along most of these corridors. And the allowed development density is much lower than along the Central City Streetcar, both east and west sides, so LIDs will produce less as well.
Maybe its time to go to the ballot with a bond issue for a portion of the local funding, with a 50/50 match with local funds…TIF, LID, meters or whatever. This would then leverage the federal piece. Districts/corridors could compete for the City bond funds, and the broader public would have a chance to discuss and decide on the Streetcar vision.
Wells:
Of course, the real culprit that finally brought down the streetcar lines was the popularity of automobiles, Jitneys and taxi’s.
Bob T:
You forgot the BUSES! The BUSES! Jitneys, by the way, were outlawed (criminalized) narly nationwide after only about five or six years of operation from about 1914 to 1920, so it’s highly doubtful they brought down the stretcar. In fact, the streetcar companies were the key to getting the jitneys criminalized.
Getting back to the buses (years ago it was spelled “busses”), the jitneys did reveal the advantage of rubber-wheeled transportation not limited to tracks, and buses started to thrive once manufacturers started making them in quantities. These then became more popular than streetcars because of the instant route changes they could make as well as how they can get around accidents etc, unlike streetcars/lightrail.
As for the infamous “GM” conspiracy (which you didn’t mention, fortunately), it should be noted that some bus companies bought streetcar lines not to dismantle them, but to capture more revenues as many riders used streetcars as a preference or because they served some areas better than buses did (not enough buses yet, I guess), much the way movie studios bought TV stations not to shut them down but to capture a larger overall audience of viewers in theaters and living rooms. Note that many streetcar systems still existed for some years after being bought by bus lines. They were money losers as time went on, and the bus companies tried but gave up.
Bob T
Buses will never beat streetcars for comfort, nor aside from trolleybuses, be zero-emission or as quiet. These advantages are a large part why streetcars are more popular than buses.
Between 1995-98, I opposed putting MAX on the transit mall and supported a proposal similar to Denver’s 16th Street Shuttle instead: low-emission, 4-door, low-floor buses that operate only on the transit mall at 2 minute intervals.
When plans for putting MAX on the mall revived, it occured to me that MAX would operate best with the least number of buses on the mall achieved with the Denver-style shuttle bus system.
Frequent interval service is one of those advantages the patrons appreciate most. It was a relief being able to maintain the integrity of the shuttle bus idea.
“Buses will never beat streetcars for comfort…”
>>>> And streetcars will never beat buses for flexibility. Just see how “comfortable” your streetcar is when it is stalled because for some reason it cannot maneuver around something or there is a problem with one of the streetcars in front of it. And you have a longer trip because there cannot be any express or limited service offered–just a pokey all-stop service. Or how you might have to transfer to a bus anyway, because the tracks were built only so far out.
Buses will never beat streetcars for comfort, nor aside from trolleybuses, be zero-emission or as quiet. These advantages are a large part why streetcars are more popular than buses.
Streetcars and MAX are not “zero-emission”.
Unless, of course, one can prove that Streetcar and MAX do not purchase power from PGE, and receive their power strictly through a direct connection to a power source that is zero-emissions. However both systems acquire power from PGE, whose Boardman Coal Plant is one of PGE’s largest power generation sources, and the contributing factor towards air pollution in the Columbia Gorge and throughout Eastern Oregon. Or that PGE is heavily reliant on coal and natural gas burning for power generation, and is being praised for removing a hydro dam (never mind that hydroelectric is the least pollution form of significant power generation, as solar and wind power with today’s technology still cannot generate large amounts of electricity nor can they consistently generate electricity (i.e. it’s not always windy/it’s not always sunny).
But I guess since the pollution doesn’t affect Portland, so what, those poor schmucks chose to live in the Gorge and Eastern Oregon, they can suck it up.
^ Erik, your comment is extremely misleading.
Electric trains have no emissions on the street, which have a huge impact on how much pollution people who live near and ride transit are directly exposed.
You sound like you’ve proven that buses have a lower impact on the environment than electric trains. I take it someone has ran a life-cycle analysis of streetcars vs buses vs lightrail? I’d be curious to see any report comparing the efficiencies of these transportation systems!
Note that it would be relatively easy for trimet to purchase green (or wind) power to meet the electrical needs of their entire organization, yet would need to buy carbon offsets – and a significant amount – to become carbon-neutral in regards to the amount of diesel fuel burned and CO2 generated. And even if they did so, the 2 million people of the metro area will still be exposed to significant point-source pollution emitted by the bus fleet.
Electricity can be generated by any source. In Oregon, for instance, the Portland area averages 4 Kilowatt-hours/sq meter of solar energy per day throughout the year. Small and large scale solar installations can provide sufficient electricity to power many different types of applications. Sure, trains take a lot of energy, but did you know that all of the energy in the world, excluding nuclear, tidal, and geothermal, comes from the sun?
I guess there is a lot of ignorance on this board. Check your facts before posting.
“I guess there is a lot of ignorance on this board. Check your facts before posting.”
Hey, not only do I vote with my car (everyday), I let my car do my thinking. Facts don’t mean nothin’ when they’re being rolled over by a sweet V-8.
Global warming is a hoax. Peak oil is a myth. Home price in Portland would drop to bargain basement prices if we only expanded the UGB. Buses are better than anything else. Metro has been infiltrated by members of the Red Guard. I am in the minority but I pretend to speak for the majority just for fun.
Facts, schmacts.
The only difference between the streetcar systems in the 1920’s weren’t run by the incompetant government – they were PRIVATE enterprises.
Yup, well said. Something that no one can really disagree with. People had VESTED interest in making the system work. Now it just needs to subsist, which is easy to do based on the unbalanced and subsidized in every direction method of funding that is in existence. I say privatize and put tolls on all the roads. Privatize those, and we’ll see Streetcar expansion under private means. :) yup.
is it possible to recover paved over tracks?
No, not under current law, standard behavior from the Feds/City Government, etc. Even if they where functionally usable it isn’t going to happen. I mean, why re-track to Lake Oswego, the tracks are already there. A STREETCAR RUNS ON THE TRACKS, the only thing it needs is Catenary. But I guarantee that they’ll rip those tracks up and spend the money on new ones. Not that this is an entirely bad idea, it’s just very costly. Especially with the rising cost of the pertinent materials.
Likewise, the gauge, (distance between the rails,) is wrong for the new streetcars, so you’d have to re-lay at least one side of the rails anyways.
No it isn’t. President Lincoln standardized the gauges over a hundred years ago!?!?!?! Also, are you sure the new streetcars are really heavier than those old pure steal and iron cast cars, like the one that runs to Lake Oswego? If so, that’s another mark against the Inekon cars in my book. Why have a streetcar that is comparable to an SUV when you can have one that is comparable to a Prius?
The more Streetcars the better
Except that under Government operation the city will NEVER be able to afford a 100+ mile system with a massive increase in cost to the public versus the percentage of the old system. Is the public truly prepared to pay THAT kind of money in addition to the costs they already bare for the city to do things it can’t do efficiently? The more the city takes in disposable income the less condos, houses, cars, product, and all the stuff that makes our economy enable our standard of living is going to dry up. Portland already has a severe issue with gaining and retaining high paying jobs downtown. Which are the ones that are needed to maintain the condo industry and create sustainable growth. What is occurring now is NOT sustainable, I love the streetcar, but it HAS to become more self sufficient if it is to truly expand. Otherwise the city is going to have to find some very odd, most likely insanely expensive, and troublesome methods to fund it.
Much of the problems with the private sector were because government regulations made it difficult to operate.
Yup, that is true, like the FACT that the city ran one company out of business because it FORCED price regulations at 5 cents. It is entirely unacceptable for a city to do this, but it did, and it ruined a profitable and very acceptable business that didn’t require subversive, misleading, and subterfuge to have funding for operations AND capitol expenditures. Yeah, that meant people didn’t have to pay parking and taxes to have a streetcar, but we do now, wether we use it or not. That is NOT honest, that is nothing short of theft. But I guess sometimes, theft is ok. (or is it?)
Private streetcar companies struggled to make profit and meet operating expenses from the very start. Competition led to buyouts, mergers and consolidations. Municipal regulations were more supportive than restrictive.
Yeah, regulations always help businesses. The Government has never ran any companies out of business. We should all turn to the Government for the answers because they know better than us. Come on, that is total bull#&$%. Every streetcar line in this country pretty much maintained itself until the GOVERNMENT of cities, feds, states, etc decided they wanted to be involved in transit, etc. To hand the competition a huge chunk of change, force repossesion of the roads, to regulate price controls, is NOT SUPPORTIVE OF STREETCAR service. That is the primary reason many of the major systems went under. The Key System was profitable, the New ORleans System was profitable, the freaking Montgomery Alabama System was profitable, the Gulfport Mississippi system, the Tacoma Washington System… do I need to go on? Sure some of them went under, sure consolidation occurred, sure mergers happened. You don’t call for a company or business or industry to be taken over by the feds, state, or city if it merges, consolidates, or goes under. But the city, state, and feds freaked so bad in so many cities, unsure what happened (it’s obvious if you just look at the financial and economic situation transportation providers where in at the time, and often continue to be in) they just frantically forced posession or allowed companies to cede control (usually after they gave up in competition since other competitors generally had a steady feed of Governmental hand outs).
“I wonder how much Streetcar contributed to the record sale price of the Brewery Blocks announced today.”
>>>> ZILCH
Ya got that right. If the streetcar was ripped up tomorrow does anyone think there would be a mass exodus of the Pearl? It might be missed, but until it truly becomes useful then it’s mere candy. Rip up the MAX and you’ll see immediate and horrid impacts. People WILL move away if that happened. ( I would )
“If this system were “so great” then why can’t it go private?”
If I took over the system as is today, with a debt payment of a reasonable amount ongoing (because I wouldn’t accept anything for free), I could expand the system, increase frequency, and probably cut travel time from the current end points by 5-8 minutes at a mere $3.00 for a one way ticket. I wouldn’t however buy a single additional Inekon Car, every single new car would be single unit modern skinned Barney Car. With that price and a few loans I could expand the system at 2-3 miles per year until I had far more of an expansive system than existed before with great arrival times. With the Barney Cars I’d be able to implement dedicated ROW and in road system usage that would absolutely beat bus service…
…but I digress. Point it, I “could” run a profitable system if the economic market was to play its part again.
But then of course, Portlanders are so cheap these days, and with so much subsidies going to auto based and MAX/Bus transit it probably would fail.
J Says:
Everything you said is right on the money. You truly have a clear and elaborate grasp of the situation.
Sure … as soon as all the roads and highways “go private” and give up all the direct and hidden subsidies that make them possible, including their evasion of the true cost of pollution, oil (which includes a chunk of the military budget to secure MIddle Eastern oil supplies), taxpayer financed road and highway budgets, etc. etc.
OMG, OMG, OMG, I would so love for them to be privatized. I’d love to be able to pay $5-10 bucks and drive without delay straight to Vancouver Washington anytime I wanted to. I’d love for the moocher who travels 1000 miles for a whimsical road trip to truly pay the $1000 plus bucks it should cost em’. Even $500. Then we’ll see how well auto transit holds up to passenger rail again! It held its ground for so long even under one being heavily subsidized and the other PAYING heavy taxes!
Blagh, dreams. Fairness, market driven, consumer choices, bah! Who wants that?!
…ok, I’ve had enough fun with this post. I’m off to sleep.
“President Lincoln standardized the gauges over a hundred years ago!?!?!?!”
For mainline railroads.
Most of the old streetcar lines, (all of which were built after Lincoln died,) in our city are 3’6″ gauge. Yes, there were some exceptions, and the Hawthorne and Interstate bridges were dual gauge to handle both, but most of the lines were narrow gauge…
http://www.trainweb.org/oerhs/roster/portlandtraction_813.htm
“The only difference between the streetcar systems in the 1920’s weren’t run by the incompetant government – they were PRIVATE enterprises.”
Yup, well said. Something that no one can really disagree with.
I don’t really know or care why streetcar operations failed in the 1920’s. Obviously those PRIVATE companies failed. The question is would they be successful today and frankly I don’t see s successful private business model. And virtually all the ones that are suggested are really governement enforced private monopolies. I don’t see many examples of those working well.
“The only difference between the streetcar systems in the 1920’s weren’t run by the incompetant government – they were PRIVATE enterprises.”
Yup, well said. Something that no one can really disagree with.
I don’t really know or care why streetcar operations failed in the 1920’s. Obviously those PRIVATE companies failed. The question is would they be successful today and frankly I don’t see a successful private business model. And virtually all the ones that are suggested are really government enforced private monopolies. I don’t see many examples of those working well.
I asked Jesus this morning which is better, streetcars or buses? Jesus answered, “Can’t you people make reasonable judgments without getting into a fight?”
“Apparently not,” I said and repeated the question. “Well”, Jesus perused, “My wounds can become painful if I have to stand, much moreso on buses than on streetcars. Bumpy suckers, most buses.” Jesus went on, “Czechs are great engineers. Why US engineers never incorporate the concept of shock absorbers on their buses is unbelievable.”
“I don’t believe it, either,” I said. “The most expensive bus I know of is the double-articulated express buses in Los Angeles. They ride like the back of an unloaded pick-up truck. Those with bad backs beware!”
Jesus bolted out, “Are you tellin me that Los Angelenos pay a premium for a supposedly faster bus that reminds the majority of its riders, Latinos, of life as a migrant farm worker?”
“I figure you already know this,” I answered.
“I can’t be everywhere at once, as much as you’d like to believe”, Jesus ended the conversation with.
Boy oh boy! I hate to start my day getting Jesus upset. Still, from the direction the conversation took, I suppose his answer to the original question is that Jesus likes streetcars better.
I asked Jesus this morning which is better, streetcars or buses? Jesus answered, “Can’t you people make reasonable judgments without getting into a fight?”
“Apparently not,” I said and repeated the question. “Well”, Jesus perused, “My wounds can become painful if I have to stand, much moreso on buses than on streetcars. Bumpy suckers, most buses.” Jesus went on, “Czechs are great engineers. Why US engineers never incorporate the concept of shock absorbers on their buses is unbelievable.”
“I don’t believe it, either,” I said. “The most expensive bus I know of is the double-articulated express buses in Los Angeles. They ride like the back of an unloaded pick-up truck. Those with bad backs beware!”
Jesus bolted out, “Are you tellin me that Los Angelenos pay a premium for a supposedly faster bus that reminds the majority of its riders, Latinos, of life as a migrant farm worker?”
“I figure you already know this,” I answered.
“I can’t be everywhere at once, as much as you’d like to believe”, Jesus ended the conversation with.
Boy oh boy! I hate to start my day getting Jesus upset. Still, from the direction the conversation took, I suppose his answer to the original question is that Jesus likes streetcars better.
Obviously those PRIVATE companies failed.
Yeah well a lot of companies have failed. Does that mean the government should step in and save them too? They did it with national passenger railroad, too. In the 1970’s they established Amtrak. What a stupid move. It’s been losing a billion year after year! I’m surprised the government isn’t in the airline industry, too. It’s not hard to see that we’re getting more and more like socialist Europe every day. Now I see they are going to bail out the bad mortgages, too.
Yeah well a lot of companies have failed. Does that mean the government should step in and save them too?
There are a lot of services which are valuable that do not have a profitable business model. I think we need public transit systems and so do most other people. That’s why we have a public system of taxes to pay for them. It seems to me the question of streetcar or bus is primarily a question of whether a route has sufficient ridership.
The challenge is to make all transit user paid rather than saddling Portlanders and future generations of Portlanders with reoccurring and unsustainable public debt. For example, a 5.6 million dollar annual subsidy will be required just to keep the flanged wheels on the Eastside Streetcar turning. And that is for only one snail rail line and does not include paying off the bonds for construction.
With web of trolleys requiring more tax dollars, the city wanting to increase garbage rates and metro wanting to place a tax on garbage pickup, the city increasing sewer rates faster rate than inflation, electricity rates going up, The Adams plan may just be the straw on the camels back that accelerates families, including middle and working class families fleeing the city for the suburbs and Clark County. If anyone read today’s O, it appears the Portland City Council is already poised to start paying low income people to stay in Portland and attend school in the Portland Public School District. The reality is the district has lost 11, 000 students in the last decade while outlying districts are bursting at the seams proving social engineering in Portland dose not work.
This web of snail rail is definitely a folly of a trolley plan!
I really like the idea of reviving streetcar service to the Woodstock neighborhood. The old Woodstock Super Center site exists because that land originally housed a streetcard yard, and the original line that terminated there is what the Woodstock neighborhood was built around.
Now, it would be wonderful for a new streetcar line to terminate there again, allowing the Woodstock Super Center (Safeway, Bi-Mart, etc.) to be redeveloped into a medium-rise (4-6 story) development of grocery stores, other retail, offices and residential. Would be nice to break up those big lots with some interior streets, alleys & pedestrian paths, too. This would be a great way to make Woodstock into a real neighborhood center for that part of SE Portland, which currently comes up a bit lacking with regards to neighborhood amenities, in comparison to other more central parts of SE.
Hey, we can dream, right?
Ever hear of the concept, “less is more”. Well, it has a correlative, “slower is faster.” One may think they can get somewhere sooner by travelling faster, but this leaves one in the expectant position of never arriving (like waiting for a teapot to boil). And having finally arrived in such a hurry, the time and everything between has been lost, as if there is nothing between travel point A and B but a heartless vacuum filled with tax worries and odors.
I guess there is a lot of ignorance on this board. Check your facts before posting.
I have checked my facts. You (zilfondel) made the following claims:
**Electric trains have no emissions on the street, which have a huge impact on how much pollution people who live near and ride transit are directly exposed.
So now we’re only counting emissions that occur when operating a motor vehicle on a street? So power plant emissions don’t matter, industrial air pollution doesn’t matter? That’s pretty narrow thinking; I guess I better crank up my central A/C system and my heater at the same time, turn on my ten computers and make my kilowatt meter blow up – after all they don’t have any impact on the environment.
You conveniently overlook the fact that many MAX riders, especially on the westside, use a single occupant motor vehicle to drive to a park & ride lot – since most pollution from a motor vehicle occurs during the crank-up process and in short distances, there is a contributing factor towards air pollution right there. Me – I walk to my bus stop; no impact there. But to completely discount the fact that a large percentage of electricity used in Portland (including by our MAX and Streetcar systems) is a contributing factor towards air quality concerns in the Columbia Gorge, and to implicitly state, as I suggested, “it’s not in my neighborhood, why should I care?” – then why should we be concerned about, say, retreating glaciers? Glaciers don’t exist in my back yard, and never did since the Ice Age.
** You sound like you’ve proven that buses have a lower impact on the environment than electric trains. I take it someone has ran a life-cycle analysis of streetcars vs buses vs lightrail? I’d be curious to see any report comparing the efficiencies of these transportation systems!
No, I never once said that.
However as you may easily recall, I do cite the fact that TriMet refuses to invest in less polluting busses, such as articulated busses (or double-decker busses as others have suggested) which carry more passengers while burning the same fuel/putting out the same emissions; or hybrid-electric busses which put out far fewer emissions; or trolleybusses.
You’re right, compared with TriMet’s current fleet of diesel busses, MAX and Streetcar probably is cleaner. But to say “zero emissions” is false, just travel to Boardman to see where Portland’s power is generated. Once again, TriMet and Metro refuse to allow Portland residents to see all alternatives, just the alternatives they want to propose, and completely ignore alternatives such as hybrid-electric or CNG busses, or trolleybusses – which are successfully used and in high demand in the Seattle-Tacoma-Everett and Vancouver, BC area. And, are generally mandated by law in California.
And, by the way: a recent study showed that in long-distance transportation, busses are more efficient and cleaner than rail transport (i.e. Amtrak). Of course, Amtrak’s poor ridership and low load factors are primarily to blame there.
Note that it would be relatively easy for trimet to purchase green (or wind) power to meet the electrical needs of their entire organization, yet would need to buy carbon offsets – and a significant amount – to become carbon-neutral in regards to the amount of diesel fuel burned and CO2 generated
Carbon Offsets are an easy way to say “I’ll pollute as much as I want, but I’ll pay for someone else to use less”. How about this – how about creating less pollution in the first place??
Once again, you ignore the fact that there are alternatives to diesel-fueled busses, but you would never want a bus to actually be superior to light rail so it’s just easier to pretend they don’t exist (since, after all, TriMet doesn’t use them, and Metro refuses to put federal flex dollars into buying them.)
And even if TriMet purchased carbon offsets, where would it be paid from? Would TriMet increase all MAX fares to cover the cost of that? Would Streetcar start charging a fare for all riders? Or, like history has shown, would TriMet force another round of service cuts to the bus service, delay new bus purchases, and other forms of disinvestment in the bus fleet to pay for it – thereby denying access to quality transit, and forcing more area residents to use a car? (Under your philosophy, a SOV car is better than a bus. That’s odd.)
Electricity can be generated by any source. In Oregon, for instance, the Portland area averages 4 Kilowatt-hours/sq meter of solar energy per day throughout the year. Small and large scale solar installations can provide sufficient electricity to power many different types of applications. Sure, trains take a lot of energy, but did you know that all of the energy in the world, excluding nuclear, tidal, and geothermal, comes from the sun?
So what – are MAX and Streetcar trains powered by solar electricity? NO! Check YOUR facts, the primary generator of electricity in Portland is through burning coal and natural gas.
And so what if the sun is the ultimate source of all energy in the world? What point are you trying to make there, that the source of electricity is insignificant, but burning diesel is bad? Obiviously you don’t know your facts about trains, because virtually every diesel locomotive in the United States is properly called a “Diesel-Electric” – the diesel engine turns a generator (or alternator) which provides electric current to power traction motors which propel the locomotive.
So, is your argument that as long as electric drive is involved it’s OK, but a direct drive is bad – then shouldn’t you be supporing hybrid electric busses to replace TriMet’s fleet of diesel busses? Or, are you still against them because it would require TriMet to invest in the bus service and improve bus service for the 2/3rds of area transit users that ride the bus?
There was one case in Washington where the government did drive a private streetcar operation to go to buses. It was the last streetcar operation in Washington state. I am not talking about Seattle, our’s last ran April 13, 1941(If Only they had waited another 8 months). The Counterbalance and the Cable Cars were out by the end of summer 1940, but the former was on standby for the winter of 1941. The city and county that decided the streetcar had to go? Yakima, 1947. It was franchise renewal time, the traction company wanted to upgrade, replace the 1930 Brill Master Units with PCCs. Instead, they were told buy buses, lose the streetcars, or lose the franchise. The Master Units ended up in Portland because of that decision, 2 of them are back in Yakima, the other one is in the museum in Snoqualmie, but inmomvable, a tree grew threw it!
Now I have noticed the South Lake Union Streetcar continues to be built, and it is being built much faster than LINK Light Rail. The Streetcar could eventually circle Lake Union. Another Lake we have here, the big one, Lake Washington, is an example of the people acting quickly to prevent wholesale destruction on parks and beaches along the lake. The first wave of unregulated mass-suburbanization of the Eastside over-ran most of the few sewer utilities on the Eastside, and untreated sewage was flowing right into the lake, making it unsafe to swim. Seattle and the First Suburbs complained to Olympia, and after much trying, they formed the Municipality of Metropolitan Seattle. Within a little over a decade, they cleaned up the lake for the most part. Now on the recent heat wave, I have seen people enjoying the lake, swimming and doing other activities that had the Libertarians and others who felt the government should not be involved in things like utilities had had there way, would not be happening.
As for had the voters, the Seattle Transit Commission, Highway Department, and Metro been able to get a rail system built in the 1950s, let alone get Forward Thrust passed in 1968, who knows, we might have had a balanced transportation system. We still cannot even agree on how to do that today!
The City has a proposal for an Center City Streetcar Network, serving the U-District, South Lake Union. First Hill/Capitol Hill, and the Central District. Streetcars. Enhanced Buses, Light Rail all can work together in a regional context, combined with Amtrak Cascades. Now I wonder what is the potential for Windpower in areas of the Columbia River Gorge where it is allowed? Is it possible to uprate BOnneville Dam to get some more Megawatts out of it? Now for the concerns of visual impacts of wind turbines on rural areas. I have suggested that King County Metro get a few wind turbines to provide some of the power for the trolleybuses, and would be willing to site 2 or 3 at Atlantic Base just for some fairness.
Now I wonder what is the potential for Windpower in areas of the Columbia River Gorge where it is allowed? Is it possible to uprate BOnneville Dam to get some more Megawatts out of it? Now for the concerns of visual impacts of wind turbines on rural areas. I have suggested that King County Metro get a few wind turbines to provide some of the power for the trolleybuses, and would be willing to site 2 or 3 at Atlantic Base just for some fairness.
As for “upgrading” Bonneville Dam, forget it. The environmentalists have decreed hydropower no longer environmentally friendly (because it restricts fish migration), and besides there’d be claims of uprooting sediment, destroying more of the Columbia Gorge Natural Scenic Area, blah blah blah.
Besides, two dams owned by PacifiCorp in the Columbia Gorge (one on the Hood River and one on the White Samon River) are scheduled for demolition. However both dams provide for only a fraction of the power that Bonneville does. And PGE is dismantling its Sandy River project.
As for wind mills, you can forget that too in the Columbia Gorge scenic area, because, well, it’s a scenic area. A single, or even a handful, of wind turbines provides very little power comparatively, it takes a farm of at least 50-75 turbines to make any significant amount of power – and the Gorge Commission would balk at building such a facility in a protected scenic area. That’s why they are all being built out east.
Now, Seattle. Seattle is doing a pretty good job meeting their energy needs; City Light apparently pulls over 90% of their own power from their own plants or the BPA (i.e. Bonneville Dam). Wind power would merely be a candle atop the frosting on the cake; but at least Seattle has significant wind to make it possible. A few wind turbines probably wouldn’t power the trolleybus system but would serve a few buildings or residential neighborhoods. However while that is good for Seattle, building wind turbines in the heart of Portland wouldn’t be feasible, there isn’t enough wind, except maybe out by the airport – and for obivious reasons the FAA would nix that.
Then again, if the Streetcar/Light Rail supporters were true environmentalists, they would see that the airport is one of the worst polluters possible, and would argue to eliminate it, and would vow to take Amtrak everywhere. Then the Red Line, which is becoming a glorified shopping center shuttle, would no longer be necessary (because it promotes sprawl and big box shopping centers, which is everything Portland is against.) Then because those shopping centers aren’t needed, Streetcars wouldn’t be needed that far east, because everyone would magically live in downtown Portland in high rise condo buildings in 400 square foot apartments.
King County has always been in the airport business, but commercial passenger traffic out of Boeing Field is limited to a few Cesnas serving Port Angeles and the San Juan Islands. What a waste for such a long runway, but a lot of private planes use it, and the only thing keeping the County from bulldozing Orange Xs into the Runway is that Boeing still uses a good portion of the NW corner of the airport for airplane testing and fititng out. ALthough I would not be surprised if they moved those functions to Moses Lake, as it has a huge Runway. There is a case where rail transit might be making an airport into a new residential center. That is what is planned for Stapleton in Denver.
As for hydropower, the environmentalists should not have killed the Third Powerhouse at Grand Coulee. Fish Passage is not a concern, as there is no Fish Ladder at Grand Coulee.I saw the dam from the air earlier this month. Still impressive looking after all these years.(On the flight from Minneapolis/St. Paul, it was the first landmark I actually was able to make out from the window seat). Some of our utilities up here are considering tapping Puget Sound for Tidal Power, but that will meet oppostition. It already fell on deaf ears a few years ago in the Tacoma Narrows. One promoter wanted to include wave energy generators in the bridge foundations, to generate power, and said the power sales would pay for the new bridge without tolls and taxes. Although they must have forgotten the disaster on the Narrows Floor, called Galloping Gertie. The remnants are at the bottom. Of course they are going to meet resistance from environmentalists and the Fishing Industry.
An interesting not on Light Rail. While transfering planes at the Lindbergh Terminal at MSP, they mentioned for people transfering to the Humphrey Terminal, to catch a Shuttle Bus. The current connector’s station was affected by construction. The connector? Not an Automated People Mover like Sea-Tac, but Metro Transit Line 55, the Hiawatha Light Rail Line. When they can use the Humphrey Terminal Station again this year, the old schedule will be back. They run a shuttle between those two stations in the hours when Line 55 is not running.
A lot of anti government rhetoric going on here! Of course these people think that anything that the government does is bad, which of course makes them basically “crackpot” free marketers. Certain endeavors have to be run for the public good, not for profit. Things such as fire, police, road maintenance, and yes, transit! Sure the government operates inefficiently, but private enterprise is not such a great thing in all cases either. (I give you Enron)
I support that street car expansion idea. In 100 years the only private cars you will see will be in museums. Get the rails back now while we can. Don’t forget, in their zeal to make sure they would maximize profit, the oil and rubber industry spearheaded the drive to destroy America’s transit services. (thank god for free markets)
Have we found a way to grow natural rubber here? With all this talk about being able to grow our way to self-sufficiency with biofuels, have they found a replacement for petrochemicals used in making tires yet? Cars can’t run without fuel, but they need rubber tires to move.
As for the streetcar, there are suggestions to add more lines in Seattle, but the most promising would be extending the South Lake Union Line to the University District, and the Waterfront Line up Jackson Street as far as 12th Ave, and maybe 23rd. Although it is a steep route of peaks and valleys, in the old era, it was a streetcar route(not a cable car route). THe Jackson line would also have a branch to First Hill and Capitol Hill, to replace a station dropped from LINK LIght Rail because of Federal Rules. They claimed the bus routes were more than enough. The FTA person making that decision never noticed the big traffic jam on Madison Street during Rush Hour. It is all the doctors and hospital employees headed for the Freeway. It is faster to walk as far west as 6th avenue than take the #12 Bus, but a pedestrian cannot cross 6th Ave because even when it is red, the traffic headed for the on-ramp at Seneca Street can still take their Free Right Turn.
“Have we found a way to grow natural rubber here? With all this talk about being able to grow our way to self-sufficiency with biofuels, have they found a replacement for petrochemicals used in making tires yet? Cars can’t run without fuel, but they need rubber tires to move.”
The rubber tree is native to South America, but they have grown it commercially successfully in Europe, so I’m fairly sure they could in the US as well. But I imagine that you could make a “synthetic” rubber from any hydrocarbon, [plant material] with the right “refinery” process…
(The only reason we don’t make more things out of natural rubber now is because historically oil has been so cheap that it is just easier to use that instead. There isn’t even much of a market for recycled rubber, even though it is a relatively easy thing to recycle…)