In a number of recent discussions, the idea of a Hawthorne Streetcar has come up. This was especially the case in Tuesday’s “Burnside-Couch Couplet” thread.
I think there is sufficient interest to get local interested parties together (transportation advocates, Hawthorne-area businesses, residents, taxpayers, bicycle and pedestrian activists, and even pure motorists (Hi, Terry)) to try and pitch a plan. This group could choose to push directly for a project, or simply to get this project studied, included, and prioritized in a regional transportation plan.
I’d offer to form such a group myself, as I am very interested in the idea of a Hawthorne Streetcar. However, I have a number of commitments already, and I do not live in the corridor (although I visit friends there and shop there a lot)… to have the best credibility, the group should organize from within the corridor.
What I can offer, however, is a bit of technical/IT support: For other companies and organizations I have created web sites with forums, membership management, email discussion lists, newsletter/article management, etc. I have taken the liberty of registering the domain “hawthornestreetcar.org” (nothing there just yet), and I can quickly set up a community web site like this one I did for the Rose City Park neighborhood: http://www.rcpna.org/
Will this be sufficient to entice potential organizers to come forward? Can our heroes coalesce into a force for good? Stay tuned… contact me at bob@peak.org if you want to help move this along.
– Bob R.
30 responses to “Can we get a Hawthorne Streetcar group going?”
Tell you what, Bob. Give us a HAND putting together a great web site like you did for Rose City Park Neighborhood (us being HAND, the Hosford-Abernethy Neighborhood Development neighborhood association)…and I’ll see what I can get going as our NA’s Land Use & Transportation Chair. I already know there’s a lot of interest in our community. I also suspect the impending #14 cut in service will provide fertile ground for looking at new alternatives. Maybe we can talk at our Portland Transport get together if that ever gets off the ground.
I still, however, reserve the right to whine about priorities…
Frank, a question…..
Since we have been talking about Screetcar routes as a means to bring about concentrated development–that is a major rationale in the Burnside SC proposal–is the Hawthorne district ready for that?
I’m not saying that it would be on the scale of anything on the westside, just that it would really change the character of this historic neighborhood, but it would be hard to justify such a large scale solution without including the development aspects, too.
I have been advocating a Streetcar through Sellwood,(which, I admit is even less of an urban neighborhood than Hawthorne) via Tacoma St. BUT this could connect to Milwaukie Transit Center and be a low cost alternative to the MAX proposal. And, it is conditional upon seeing a Westshore SC go at least as far as the Sellwood Bridge so that it would connect.
If the Milwaukie MAX turns out anything like the Interstate—hey, why not just send an airport type shuttle bus? However, our planners like the retired Mr. Howell, argue that spending a few hundred million more on another bridge will solve that economic shortcoming, as well…
Since we have been talking about Screetcar routes as a means to bring about concentrated development–that is a major rationale in the Burnside SC proposal–is the Hawthorne district ready for that?
I’d like to see us talking about the Streetcar as a means for moving people, not just as a tool for new development. Our line 14 carries, I believe, 8% of the transit riders into downtown. The operating costs for a streetcar are less than for buses and improved service will increase that percentage. (And Tri-Met should have less concerns about the operating costs of servicing “new” neighborhoods.)
At any rate, we’re already seeing re-development happening, with monster condo buildings replacing single family homes. I expect that trend to continue –for good or ill– as I agree with Commissioner Adams predictions about the character of Hawthorne’s retail changing. And Hawthorne, of course, passes through the Central Eastside Industrial District, so ripe for new development. If we could get ODOT to stop playing games with the large lots they’re holding onto in the CEID, we could see an amazing amount of new development there, which would be on the Hawthorne line.
That’s one of the questions we have to struggle with. So far, we have used Streetcar as a placemaking tool that functions as such by providing mobility.
If we want to use it more as a pure mobility tool, we’re going to need a different financing approach.
The Loop is still in the placemaking model. Lake Oswego would be a hybrid – it would be placemaking in LO and to some degree in John’s Landing, but in between it would be a mobility tool, and the financing will also probably have to be a hybrid.
On Hawthorne it would also be a hybrid, but I’m not sure what the mix would be. It would clearly have some development potential, but nothing like it does in the Pearl, RiverPlace or SoWa.
This is a learning process, and part of it is driven by the enthusiam Streetcar is now generating in the community. Since 1997 this has gone from “I’m concerned this might be a boondoggle” to “I want one in my neighborhood”. Presumably that change in attitude also opens up some different thoughts about funding.
Enthusiasm is a real key…buses, the simplest answer from a utilitarian view, probably don’t have the attraction that SC has. Still, I know of some quite plush commuter bus efforts in other areas.
The westside of Portland has been ripe for a vision like the Streetcar, due to conditions not quite so obvious in some other neighborhoods. How much distance would a Hawthorne SC travel? 2.5 miles. I suppose one could go under the Rev. Dr. Pamplin’s clerestory at 55th Ave with a tunnel…and pop out at 82nd Ave.
Actually, I’m about ready to engage in some other projects, so you guys can have the floor. Hey, look at that “patient” on Dr. 90210!!! Looking forward to Dec. 14…is ther a location?
I’m locking up the details and hope to announce the location tomorrow!
Regarding where a Hawthorne streetcar would/could go, how much it would cost, and how it would be funded are important questions, but I specifically did not include my views on that in this post because, if there is to be grassroots support for the project, those ideas have to come from the community.
That is not to say that I won’t give my opinions to a group if it is formed.. I most certainly will, probably to the annoyance of many.
But my main goal here is to see if interested parties can be assembled into some kind of organization.
Does anyone know if there is a published guide such as “so you want to start an advocacy group in Portland?”… sort of a turnkey for those silly bureaucratic things like rules of order, appointing board members, dealing with the city in a transparent and ethical fashion, etc?
– Bob R.
Give us a HAND putting together a great web site like you did for Rose City Park Neighborhood (us being HAND, the Hosford-Abernethy Neighborhood Development neighborhood association)…and I’ll see what I can get going as our NA’s Land Use & Transportation Chair.
If you are interested in the software, please contact me privately, I don’t want to turn this into a commercial… thanks!
…sort of a turnkey for those silly bureaucratic things like rules of order, appointing board members, dealing with the city in a transparent and ethical fashion, etc?
This is where Neighborhood Coalition groups come in handy. There’s already a Southeast Uplift Transportation Committee, that generally includes the transportation chairs from the effected neighborhoods. They could be a starting point for putting together an independent “advocacy” group that could grow to include folks beyond the usual suspects of neighborhood activists.
Just get Defazio and Blumenauer to slip you a few hundred mil in the next Transport Approps. Benefits of being in the new majority.
If DeFazio ever wants to be governor, he should start steering bushels of money to where most of the state’s voters actually live – the Portland metro area. Eugene is not enough of a power base to get elected statewide.
One suggestion for future streetcars with really high ridership projections:
Quadrouple articulation!
I think the best reason for having a streetcar line on Hawthorne would be to better serve those people now living in the area, many of whom already use mass transit and others who would use it if streetcars replaced buses.
But I don’t think we should underestimate the potential for more transit-oriented housing and development on Hawthorne. People tend to think of the Hawthorne area as a completely developed “historic district,” but if we’re talking about Hawthorne Boulevard specifically, that simple impression is at odds with the full reality of the situation. There are many underdeveloped lots along Hawthorne that are sites of little one-story strip malls, convenience stores, and other assorted cheap and nondescript buildings of no architectural interest or historic significance.
Denser redevelopment of some of these lots could help to meet some of the city’s housing goals and, assuming we managed to protect the truly handsome buildings along the street, improve the overall look and feel of the area. (Even the huge Safeway and its parking lot could be redeveloped to combine housing, retail and parking in a way that would be far more efficient and more in keeping with best aspects of the physical character of the neighborhood.)
Perhaps it would be appropriate, and maybe even more effective, for the Hawthorne streetcar group to not just advocate for the streetcar but to show that there are properties along the street that would be great candidates for dense redevelopmemt if only a streetcar were coming.
I totally agree that there is lots of room for redevelopment, especially on Hawthorne but also in the adjoining neighborhoods. There is much in place that is neither historic, nor attractive.
The Safeway, we’ve been told, plans to remodel their store soon, and it would be cool to move them toward a multi-function model
there are huge underused lots between 39th and 55th, (the eagles parking lot/lodge for example) that i imagine would look quite tasty to some condo developer..
I fully support this effort — but I don’t live in the Hawthorne district (though my parents are close, at 53rd & Belmont — is that within the sphere of influence?).
Still, I’m with Bob: I’ll gladly give my views on what should happen, but this really should be a grassroots project.
Perhaps Hawthorne can finally break the mentality that parcel assembly and large-scale is the only way to do redevelopment? Maybe the Streetcar can bring with it more examples of a new model, one that allows individual small parcels to replace the older, single-story 1950s building stock with some new, 21st-century multi-story green construction that really fits in with the ethos of the Hawthorne neighborhood!
Safeway, Freddy’s & the Daily Grind are just some of the larger parcels, but yeah, why not also Plaid Pantry & some of the smaller places that are just a single-story building with some parking spaces in front? Those lots would also seem to be ripe for redevelopment if the Streetcar comes through.
though my parents are close, at 53rd & Belmont — is that within the sphere of influence
I would think they would be within the sphere of influence… certainly anyone living/working/commuting within walking distance of the current #14 bus would be impacted in some way.
– Bob R.
Funny that streetcars are conceived as something that will compromise/threaten the historic character of the neighborhood, when it was the establishment of streetcar service that brought these neighborhoods into being a century ago. It’s historical restoration. Belmont needs its SC restored too, and Stark, so nobody need walk more than a few hundred yards to get on board. That’s the way the east side was designed, in the golden age of bicycles and rail and no cars.
Ron brought up a good point: how far out will
the streetcar extend? 2.5 miles? More transfers
generated, thus driving some people away from
transit? So, areas further east would get the
shaft.
Also, with a streetcar, you can’t have limiteds
and expresses, like the few that Trimet operates
on Hawthorne now.
How about all the way to the Lents town center?
Hey…
I like the streetcar, and I’m all for expanding it, but as a user I find the current streetcar unbearably slow compared to a bus.
For a route like Hawethorn, is there any way a streetcar can acually move at the same or higher speed than a tri-met bus?
Todd, the Streetcars in those days where what built the “streetcar burbs” but they supported themselves and didn’t need hand outs for operations and such. Now though Streetcars are looked at as a subsidized entity that prevents auto dependancy and many other things, so thus the city pushes for density and zones that will, at some point, post abatements, create a huge tax windfall.
The inherent issue here is the obvious change in usage. Before they where a primary medium for transit to and from work, activities, etc. At least 30-40% of the populace used them and paid operational + infrastructure costs at fare price. Today that would be, with an efficiency increase, about 2.50 per mile. So Hawthorne from the end to downtown would be about 5-7.50. Thus the issue with them being used in the historical context, and thus the worry that they might destroy or damage the historical character of the area.
…oh, and on a completely different note.
Pending some different products (Streetcars) that are cost effective, and trackage that is built more similar to the frequency of Tacoma’s Streetcar with some dedicated right of way (maybe not the entire length, but some) I’m all about getting a group together to discuss a Hawthorne Streetcar. Of all lines and bases of income this is the most obvious location to “rebuild” a line again. But this time it should be better, faster, more efficient (people MOSTLY come from Hawthorne to downtown and back for commutes, which the Streetcar could be VERY good at shortening).
So if anyone wants to get together to discuss hit me up sometime here New Streetcars.
For a route like Hawethorn, is there any way a streetcar can acually move at the same or higher speed than a tri-met bus?
The biggest factors in Streetcar’s speed are:
1) Passenger loading/unloading (not much we can do about this).
2) Spacing between stops.
3) Traffic congestion.
Some would argue that downtown the stops are too close together. It’s a tradeoff between speed and convenience of access, and I think we could legitimately try different approaches on different lines.
If we could find somewhere to put sidings at stops (difficult or possibly impossible on Hawthorne) you could have expresses.
Traffic congestion is a harder nut to crack. The Burnside/Couch couplet is going to help Streetcar at lot in the Pearl as it signalized the intersection of 11th and Couch and other specific local solutions can sometimes help, including signal pre-emption.
Nick wrote: Ron brought up a good point: how far out will the streetcar extend? 2.5 miles? More transfers generated, thus driving some people away from transit? So, areas further east would get the shaft.
There is no reason the streetcar proposal must be limited to a shortened route or a forced transfer situation. As I have already stated, the point is to get a group going to review these issues, and that includes anyone currently served by the #14.
Also, with a streetcar, you can’t have limiteds and expresses, like the few that Trimet operates on Hawthorne now.
There is no physical reason that an occasional express bus can’t operate in addition to streetcar service… buses operate on the current streetcar line today.
However, in general, I believe that streetcars will improve the travel conditions on Hawthorne for transit riders, pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorists alike because streetcars are slightly narrower than buses (but longer) and don’t accidentally cross over into other lanes, as often happens today on Hawthorne.
– Bob R.
“Chris Smith Says:
“How about all the way to the Lents town center?”
and
“Bob R. Says:
“There is no reason the streetcar proposal must be limited to a shortened route or a forced transfer situation. As I have already stated, the point is to get a group going to review these issues, and that includes anyone currently served by the #14.”
I wouldn’t be opposed to this concept.
However, I think it’s important not to mash down too hard on the toes of Tri-Met. And I have heard some good rumors (actually, on Portland Transport!) that Tri-Met is considering running a light rail line out Powell and Foster. This would presumably have a stop only about every half-mile or so, and would be a pretty powerful development tool around the stations on Foster and in Lents.
So, once again we run up against the need for a master rail plan for the Portland region. This really is an issue that needs to be resolved: What is the best way to provide transit support for Foster/Lents redevelopment?
I would think that, until this issue gets resolved, the best Phase 1 solution would be this:
* Streetcar gets constructed from downtown, across the Hawthorne Bridge and up Hawthorne to 50th.
* The #14 bus continues to run. Except that the 14 runs limited-stop service ONLY while on Hawthorne Blvd, and resumes regular service when it hits 50th and out the Foster corridor.
That way, passengers of the 14 who live near 50th or near Foster continue to have a fast trip downtown, while the Hawthorne district gets their streetcar and expanded transit capacity overall.
Then, at some future date, the question of streetcar vs. light rail for the Foster corridor can be resolved within the context of a larger metro area rail plan.
How’s that sound?
cheers,
~Garlynn
I absolutely agree that we need a city- and region-wide rail plan to do all this rationally.
Garlynn –
I really don’t want to get too much into specific plans in this thread, but since people keep bringing it up…
My own personal opinion is that a Hawthorne streetcar could go out Hawthorne to 50th and then over toward Powell/Foster (just like the #14 does today). Terminate the initial line there until we know for sure what will happen with the possibility of light rail on Powell/Foster.
In the meantime, increase bus service on Foster so that people seeking to go from downtown out that way can bypass Hawthorne entirely. Thus, the only people who would be forced to transfer are people with both trip endpoints on Hawthorne-Foster.
On the downtown Side, the Hawthorne streetcar would follow the Main/Madison couplet with major stations between 5th/6th (for easy connections with the Transit Mall) and continue up Main (for inbound) to merge with the current Streetcar line on 11th, head South to Columbia, east to the Park Blocks and jog back up to Madison… there should also be a storage siding somewhere in there.
(You can’t just make a straight shot down Madison because it does not go through all the way to 10th/11th).
– Bob R.
Stops should ideally be no closer than 1/4 mile, as that is the distance the average American can walk in 5 minutes. Any closer than that, and you get what we have in downtown: peds walking faster than teh streetcar for part of the line.
Justin –
While I wouldn’t go so far as requiring a 1/4 mile minimum, I would prefer at least 4-5 blocks of spacing (800ft-1000ft) compared to the current two blocks (400ft).
(And to point out the obvious, because I’ve found this isn’t already immediately apparent to some folks, having 5-block spacing does not mean a 5-block walk to your stop. If you are standing on Hawthorne, you’d be no more than 2.5 blocks from the nearest stop.)
– Bob R.
Bob-
I agree with you that too much detail, too early, is probably just conjecture.
However, I also agree with you that running the streetcar to 50th/Powell, thus allowing the Foster buses to jump on Powell to get downtown until something further can be worked out, makes a lot more sense for the Foster folks. Unless, of course, there are actually a lot of trips with one end on Foster and the other on Hawthorne… but I suspect that this is not really the case, and that a timed transfer or frequent service would do the trick anyways.
50th & Powell/Foster would also seem to present the greatest real estate opportunity for siting a storage yard…. lots of parking lots right around there. Maybe a mixed-use building, with a storage yard beneath, shops along the street and something above it? Maybe a park?
cheers,
~Garlynn