TriMet board votes to fund construction of first stage of MLR, and authorize bonding of payroll tax revenues to finance project
Updates to come throughout the day… but the bottom line is that the TriMet board today approved a $127 million contract to start building the “Caruthers Crossing” bridge, a key component (and first step) of the Milwaukie MAX project.
Lots of heated testimony, as lots of people came to weigh in. Quite a few Milwaukie business owners testified in favor; and quite a few folks from OPAL, ATU757, and other community members opposed. Regular PT reader Cameron Johnson gave an impassioned speech against, which is here.
Also, the board voted in favor of one of the more controversial parts of the project, the proposal to commit future payroll tax revenues in order to back a $63 million bond. Neal McFarlane answered in the affirmative when asked (by a board member) if he is comfortable with the financials on this. (Ed: It would be nice if more data could be shared, so that we could be more comfortable with this–right now, the narrative that this is all pork-barrel politics seems to have a whole lot of traction).
Both votes were unanimous in favor.
In other news, the family of one of the victims of the April accident where a bus ran down five pedestrians, killing two, has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the agency. And the board also voted to ban electric cigarettes from TriMet vehicles, and limit the definition of “service animal”.
Thanks to Joseph Rose, Michael Anderson, and Cameron for covering the meeting on twitter this morning.
UPDATE: First press coverage, from Jim Reddin of the Portland Tribune, here. One obvious issue with the Tribune article is it paints MLR opposition as mainly coming from ATU 757 members who would rather have the funds spent on their compensation and benefits–when in fact, there were many other factions present in opposition.
UPDATE 2: Oregonian press coverage of the lawsuit. In addition to TriMet, other named defendents include former GM Fred Hansen, New Flyer (the manufacturer of the bus involved), and Hadley Products, who manufactured the mirror which it is claimed blocked driver Sandi Day’s view. The $20 million award requested by plaintiffs is well in excess of the liability cap for public agencies according to Oregon law ($100k for pain/suffering plus $100k for economic damages). Another lawsuit against TriMet, filed by a woman injured in an unrelated accident, seeks to lift the cap using the landmark 2007 ruling against OHSU as precedent.
UPDATE 3-5: Johnathan Maus’ coverage at bikeportland.org. And more from Michael Anderson, here. And Joseph Rose of The Oregonian here.
52 responses to “TriMet board approves start of Milwaukie MAX construction”
Yay! Go Trimet. Looking forward to watching the construction for the next few years and eventually riding the line from my home in Milwaukie.
Hey, Scotty, I forgot to edit my edited speech into my blog post. The real one should be up shortly. I meant to do it yesterday, but, alas, I was lured too strongly by the world of internet gaming communities. :P
Ohai JHB. Sorry to be the one who rained on your parade over the TriMet Board. :)
Well, there are far worse things for teenagers to be doing online. (When I was a teen, I was doing naughty things online even before there was an Internet that teenagers with a modem could easily reach…)
Hey Cameron,
Being 16 it’s difficult to understand a lot of how government works, but it’s great to see you getting involved. I was 15 when I started attending city and county council meetings and boy did I learn a lot.
A few have mentioned it already, but I must reiterate that the Portland to Milwaukie LRT line is just a small portion of a huge transit system.
The reason why we need LRT (light-rail transit) is because of the geography of where we live. The bus system is extremely fragmented, but that’s okay as long as a strong backbone exists (the LRT system).
Sure it’s a lot of money, but it will just even cost more in the future. The last time our area fought against transit, it was with our pocketbooks in the 1950s and the whole streetcar system was eliminated and most of the bus system. What did that get us? A huge urban-sprawl problem that we have to deal with now, and an over congested and broken roadway system. Luckily we did something about it in the 1980s and expanded the bus system and laid the groundwork for the existing light rail system.
Keep up the initiative and interest in government. Remember that they represent us!
Hey Chris.
Light rail is pretty cool. I always get kind of excited when it opens. I was one of the first to ride the WES at a preview. IT WAS AWESOME. Also remember going to the mall opening last May and seeing Fred Hansen speak. Probably the moment I decided I wanted to start some sort of Activism. Don’t get me wrong, light rail is awesome.
However, it’s costly, which is a big deterrent. I think we could do a lot more with bus right now then we could with Light Rail. Especially since the agency’s in a bunch of disrepair with union problems, service cuts and fare increases. That’s really my problem, because it makes the service cuts and all the stuff we lost for filling the budget seem like a bleepslap since more money is going to the MAX.
So, yeah, if the MAX is built, I would only grumble a little bit. But if it’s built right now with our problems, it just doesn’t seem right.
P.S. I use the Green Line a lot too. I live right by it. And you all probably thought I boycotted the thing with a sign and chant every day. ;)
Cameron Johnson is my hero, and your link for his video didn’t work for me so try this if it didn’t work for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjf5TBVuBKs
And regarding the snubbing of our union president by the board, the news media’s constant lies and distortions, let me put it this way:
YOU AINT SEEN NOTHING YET!
We wanted to play by the “rules”, but that is obviously gonna lead to our demise.
Thanks a lot for this report, Scotty. So much news today! Augh!
Al, what was the snubbing of Hunt that you perceived?
You’re welcome. Of course, I’m stuck here at work (sh!) rather than out actually attending these things…. :(
You didn’t hear? Jon Hunt’s speech was so epic that he was nearly nominated for an Academy Award, but was snubbed in favor of Adam Sandler’s moving performance in Grown-Ups…
You know maybe I should try being serious.
I think that meant the whole Lynn trying to do… That thing he did that made everyone applaud, I missed what he said, but No one seconded it. Lynn regardless is still the hero of the day. :)
You didn’t hear? Jon Hunt’s speech was so epic that he was nearly nominated for an Academy Award, but was snubbed in favor of Adam Sandler’s moving performance in Grown-Ups…
You know maybe I should try being serious.
I think that meant the whole Lynn trying to do… That thing he did that made everyone applaud, I missed what he said, but No one seconded it. Lynn regardless is still the hero of the day. :)
Huh, the boyfriend is suing in addition to her father. You can do that?
Development of South Waterfront and OMSI districts are also riding on the Milmax.
In other goings-on, a stop sign is needed at the corner of westbound Lovejoy and SW 10th. Yes, there’s the new traffic light, but pedestrians crossing 10th get the “walk” signal at the same time motorists get the green light to make a right turn into the crosswalk and consistently do so at top speed. It’s a death trap. I like to complain about death traps. Death traps bother me more than evil gubmint tax collector pork chops.
Ooops. Make that Lovejoy and “NW” 10th.
Stopsigns. So retro. So Low-tech.
“Development of South Waterfront and OMSI districts are also riding on the Milmax.”
You betcha. Just like the Tram?
Just like the Round?
Just like Cascade Station?
What nonsense. Except the spending has soared so it’a almost criminal in misappropriation.
It’ll devour countless millions that could help many neighbors while triggering millions more to be wasted attempting to subsidize TOD.
It’s rather telling here that the earlier oppostion to TriMet’s $40 million in bonding has vanished almost as fast as the $40 million grew to $63 million.
Rode the tram the other day, it was packed; some of the best money we ever spent…and it wasn’t much. OHSU is the only research intitution we have as we have no major research university; that lack combined with 20 years of dis-investment in higher education has doomed the region to less that stellar job growth compared to Seattle, Denver, Bay Are, Twin Cities. Innovation & education drive modern economies.
Building out the MAX system is about as close to a no brainer as you can get…a better quality service for riders at lower cost with real, though difficult, development opportunities all along the line. The new bridge will also improve bus transit service as lines now on the Ross Island Bridge will use the new one…a little bit of BRT for its fans out there and more room for cars and trucks on the RI.
Glad TriMet showed some guts on this…when times are tough and the private sector is spooked, the public sector needs to pick up the slack. And bids should be coming in on the low side for the whole thing.
PS just sent off a big check for our family’s health insurance; surely our TriMet Ops can manage $100 or so on that front.
Generally, I’m in favor of transit expansion, but I’ve been having a bad case of sticker shock over the Milwaukie MAX project even since the budget was first announced. I’m still not clear on how and why it costs that much money, given the much lower per-mile costs of every other line Tri-Met has built.
As I’ve said before, I think this new MAX line might prove to be a worthwhile investment if it eventually is extended to Oregon City. But if we aren’t looking seriously at a “phase 2” of this project, I’m skeptical if there’s any value in going ahead with the current plan.
But I guess that’s academic at this point, since Tri-Met clearly is going ahead anyway.
And Cameron — good presentation.
The rail will be built, our taxes will rise, our health insurance will leave or cost so much we can’t afford it, the stock market go up, more people than we’ve seen in our lifetimes will be out of work,and then the whole damn system will crumble before our eyes!
That’s my bet anyway.
Oh yea, they even got me on the run again.
(shut him up will ya!)
Regarding NW 10th & Lovejoy, I think you’re supposed to cross the West-to-North turn lane using the north-south (paralell to 10th Ave) crossing signal. The downside is that you have to wait on the island for them to change.
Lenny,
[Moderator: Personally-directed remarks removed — ES]
The Tram is a parking shuttle and leveraged nothing but massive Urban Renewal/TIF misappropriation.
The con job continues and now MLR is being called the linchpin for OHSU’s SoWa campus.
If it all wasn’t so sick it would be funny.
OHSU gives land to TriMet, they claim $15 million in-kind for the local match, TriMet commits $10 million they don’t have to the Life Sciences Complex.
“some of the best money we ever spent…and it wasn’t much”
Yeah right and the millions OHSU is still paying for it wasn’t needed to invest in higher education?
How about the 100s of millions burned up with UR/TIF?
Talk about disinvestment.
Where’s those 10,000 biotech research jobs the Tram was the linchpin for?
How about the research in the first build the taxpayers paid $5 million toward for potential wet labs?
The lack of research expansion is directly attributed to the massive misappropriations you call successes.
The liquidation of the OGI and other blunders have pilfered the area of potential.
Yet you want more light rail expansion as if that spurs anything.
Is light rail and TOD the “Innovation & education that drives modern economies”? Not hardy. It’s the foolishness that hobbles the ability to fund worthwhile innovation.
Building more MAX in the face of fatal fiscal shortages is entirely brainless.
All your red herrings don’t change a thing or produce one dime towards solvency.
The benefits you list will appear only in the imaginary world of brochures while TriMet collapses.
[Moderator: Excessive rudeness removed–there are more polite ways to express disagreement — ES]
Having on less bus every so often is more room for cars and trucks?
TriMet showed incredible malfeasance on this.
The crisis at TriMet has little to do with the “times”. So they are not picking up the slack for anything. They are causing worse times for all that is being raided for the funding.
Including their own operations.
PS You think TriMet’s fiscal crisis can be fixed with employees picking up another $100 of their health care?
[Moderator: Personally-directed remark removed — ES]
Question for the moderators: Are Rule 2 and Rule 4 still in effect?
If not, I might change the tenor of some of my posts.
Yes, you still have to be nice, Doug. Personally directed remarks towards other commenters will be removed.
I think readers and moderators should avoid filling in their own version of demeanor or tenor that they cannot be certain is accurate.
Blogging is a great means to many discusssions but it has it’s limits.
But because of it’s obvious limitations the posture and emotional expression is often misread.
It’s way to easy for people to make false assumptions because they mistakenly perceive one’s comments to have ill will that does not exist.
And there are those who find it a little too convenient to cast someone’s comments as inappropriate with an assumption of tenor when they really just don’t like the opinion.
I think readers and moderators should avoid filling in their own version of demeanor or tenor that they cannot be certain is accurate.
As a moderator in these parts, I agree.
Readers here should by all means avoid ascribing intentions to each others’ posts without good reason.
Your last post to Lenny, though, wasn’t a particularly good example of that principle in action, unfortunately. Please tone it down.
Hey, rave on!, but do give us a strategy for providing better transit service to more riders and for economic survival when knowledge counts more than anything else.
Here’s mine: dump the CRC, invest $1B in each of the following: OHSU, PSU, Portland Public Schools and Portland Community College. Oh, and extend the Yellow Line to its logical end station in Vancouver, WA. Then we can start de-constructing the freeway network thru Portland and return that land to productive use.
“Building out the MAX system is about as close to a no brainer as you can get…”
>>>> Lenny, the real no brainer would be converting the MAX lines to busways. Except if one is a railfan, of course.
“The new bridge will also improve bus transit service as lines now on the Ross Island Bridge will use the new one…a little bit of BRT for its fans out there…”
>>>> That’s why I’m in favor of the bridge, but not MLR as a rail line.
I confess, I am a rail fan, but ride a bus almost every day. And I have been helping folks get to Swan Island via transit for years…even had a hand in creating three bus lines: TriMet 85, C-Tran 191 and the Swan Island Evening Shuttle. (Probably more bus lines that others on this blog have had a hand in starting.) But the simple truth is there are a ton of folks out there who will not go near a bus! Clark county people have been asking me for years “when will MAX get to Vancouver?” And not without reason…
Before the Green Line when someone told me they were coming from outer SE or N. Clacakamas, I sometimes suggested they get on a 72 bus all the way to Swan Island…no transfers, but really that was a non-starter, just too long a trip on a bus. Now its 30 minutes from CTC to the RQTC on the Green Line, plus 10-15 on the 85. That I can sell. You need both, but in heavily traveled corridors all over the world communities invest in rail which like here move more people, more reliably at lower cost.
except if one is a railfan, of course.
Knock it off, Nick. If you can’t make an argument on the merits without casting those who have a different point of view as being somehow part of some group blinded by fandom, then don’t comment at all.
Yes, I’m harping on you about this, because you haven’t changed your snide behavior in years.
Incidentally, after all these years, I still await your proposal as to what it would cost to convert MAX rails to paved busways and what it would cost to operate enough buses to maintain current ridership.
Dear Bob,
I don’t consider my remarks as being ‘snide’ – I’m merely stating what seems quite obvious to me: that a lot of people are in the advocacy process because of “hobbyist” inclinations. Are you now against transparency?
Just look at David Bragdon and Ray Polani. They are two of the major reasons we are stuck with MAX instead of busways. The articles by the Tribune revealed their transit preferences quite clearly.
And yes, I’ve made a lot a arguments before based on strictly on their merits. Now you seen to be conveniently ignoring that fact.
Nick
No, Nick, your phrasing was quite clear. If someone is a “railfan” they are therefore so biased/predisposed as to incapable of making what (you believe) is the correct decision. This has been a theme of yours for years.
This is the last I have to say about it. Drop the snide remarks.
“Incidentally, after all these years, I still await your proposal as to what it would cost to convert MAX rails to paved busways and what it would cost to operate enough buses to maintain current ridership.”
>>>> That statement was made in jest. I realize that it really too late to do anything like this today. Anyway, it’s a moot question, because Trimet is too broke to even build MLR without eventually bankrupting itself.
Besides, could you tell me how many MORE riders a high-end bus system could attract than the inflexible MAX?
Besides, could you tell me how many MORE riders a high-end bus system could attract than the inflexible MAX?
You’re the one who’s always advocating for one, why don’t you tell us?
This notion of “inflexible” isn’t particularly useful, either. Most buses run on the same routes they’ve always run, and whenever a bus route is adjusted even slightly, complaints (right or wrong) come quickly. I recall that you are one of the critics of the realignment of the downtown portion of the #15. I guess “flexibility” isn’t always such a great thing.
“The reason why we need LRT (light-rail transit) is because of the geography of where we live.”
>>>> Chris, that’s the reason that we don’t need light rail. The Portland area will probably never have the density for rail operations.
“The bus system is extremely fragmented, but that’s okay as long as a strong backbone exists (the LRT system).”
>>>> It’s the MAX that fragmented much of the bus system (I’ve stated that clearly before), not the other way around.
Nick,
Many of us think that rail has merits over bus in certain applications for good, sound technical reasons–I’m not “in love with choo-choos” or any such nonsense. We don’t call you a “busfan”, after all. Which is ironic–nobody here ever argues (that I can recall) that we should abandon the bus and put trains everywhere, but you seem to suggest that a bus-only system would be beneficial.
Besides, could you tell me how many MORE riders a high-end bus system could attract than the inflexible MAX?
Depends on where it goes. Were a hypothetical bus system to provide everyone door-to-door service w/o transfers, whereas the trains were limited to the tracks, then bus would enjoy an advantage. I think that it ought to be manifest that we’re not going to build (and cannot afford to operate) such a system anytime soon.
There do seem to be a large cohort of people who, for whatever reason, won’t ride the bus but will ride the train. The number of people who hold the reverse view is far smaller. For many, though, other service parameters besides the presence (or absence) of rubber tires seem to influence the decision as to whether to use transit or not.
But all else being equal, a high-end-bus system is probably going to attract fewer riders than a rail system running at similar frequencies.
It’s the MAX that fragmented much of the bus system (I’ve stated that clearly before), not the other way around.
You’ve stated it but you haven’t ever provided any proof.
Since MAX opened ridership has increased faster than population growth, while boardings per originating ride have remained stable, meaning that the system is not more “fragmented” at all. On average, people are making the same number of transfers per complete trip as they did before MAX.
Passenger-miles per originating ride have also remained steady, meaning the average transit journey including transfers is no longer today than it was 20 years ago, so there’s no additional “fragmentation” in terms of out-of-direction travel than there was with an all-bus system either.
Of course, the last time I mentioned these facts, you accused me of being too focused on numbers, but you failed to offer up any other scheme by which we can evaluate “fragmentation”, suitability of bus or rail, or otherwise.
Moderators,
I am deeply offended at Lenny’s caustic use of “rave” to describe my posts.
Am also insulted at his reference to my many suggestions for better transit service as being absent “knowledge”.
On behalf of my 100s of friends in Vancouver I am additionally hurt by his false claim that Clark County wants MAX. They do not. Not MAX or any of the Keep Portland Weird baggage that burns through millions more with it.
His few contacts with Swan Island employees living in Vancouver is not a measurement of Clark County. I’ll even wager Lenny has talked to no more than 2 or 3 people to make his claim.
Lenny’s advocacy for de-constructing the freeway network thru Portland insults the intelligence of anyone trying to have an intelligent conversation.
The Green Line was a political project that was not wanted by Clackamas County residents. It was a horrible project and now Metro says it was built in the wrong place. Oops a 300 million mistake? Yet CC continues using school and public safety funds to pay it off.
Lenny can’t sell anything to the voters so I don’t know what how he is talking about selling anything.
Is that what happened this week. TriMet sold the MLR project?
While Lenny makes up things a November 22nd poll of Clackamas County showed 71% do not want Milwaukie Light Rail.
TriMet is in fiscal collapse and can’t even afford their own share.
$63 million in bonds and $100 million from operations to pay them off.
It doesn’t matter if one “considers” it a worthy investment. There is no savings or service gains imaginable that offsets the enormous cost and lack of affordability.
So what’s your vision, Steve S., whoever your are?
The biggest mistake this region ever made was constructing freeways thru the middle of the city.
We started to correct that in the 70’s with the removal of Harbor Drive, then lost nerve (Ernie Bonner where are you now that we really need you!)
And let’s wait and see what happens with the light rail vote coming in 2012 in Vancouver. It will be a nice Heads I win/Tails you lose kind of thing. We either get LRT (and the CRC) or we finally kill them both.
Now I could say we really don’t need any bridge at all for all those WA tax dodgers, but I’ll behave.
re “Raves” sorry, but that’s how some posts here sound to me.
So what’s your vision, Steve S., whoever your are?
I can confirm that Steve S. is really Steve S. Anything else, Steve will have to reveal.
Regarding the issue of whether “Vancouver wants MAX”–dueling anecdotes of “my friends think X” are not helpful. People have a tendency to hang around with peers with similar outlooks; so noting that your friends and neighbors all seem to have a particular opinion is seldom evidence of anything. And where infrastructure projects are considered, the price tag often matters a great deal–the CRC is an example; much objection to it is not based on it having too many (or not enough) support for a particular mode–a lot is based on the cost.
Steve–could you point us to the Clack Co. poll you site concerning MLR? Scientifically valid surveys are far more interesting than anecdotes.
Whoa, Chill dudes. O_o I’m a tad inclined to ask why every subject turns to a fight, mostly a MAX/bus fight. Mebbe that sounds a tad hypocritical coming from someone known for attacking MAX but we already covered my relationship with rail.
I think there’s a fine line between passionate and attacking, and we seem to pass that a lot. :/ Surely we can get our points across without being like this.
Yeah, OK. I’m gonna get off my pedestal now. :) thanks.
Lenny Anderson Says: The biggest mistake this region ever made was constructing freeways thru the middle of the city.
JK: Actually the biggest transportation mistake was building light rail.
Lenny Anderson Says: We started to correct that in the 70’s with the removal of Harbor Drive, then lost nerve (Ernie Bonner where are you now that we really need you!)
Lenny Anderson Says: Don’t forget to mention that we built two freeways making Harbor Drive largely redundant since it was NOT a freeway.
Lenny Anderson Says: And let’s wait and see what happens with the light rail vote coming in 2012 in Vancouver. It will be a nice Heads I win/Tails you lose kind of thing.
JK: Wait till the election. It might turn out to be un-needed.
Lenny Anderson Says: We either get LRT (and the CRC) or we finally kill them both.
JK: Then we can get to solving the real problem by building a road only bridge and keep transit in free flowing general purpose lanes.
Lenny Anderson Says: Now I could say we really don’t need any bridge at all for all those WA tax dodgers, but I’ll behave.
JK: Actually that is happening by itself as most new jobs in the region are in Clark county because they haven’t screwed up their land use laws as bad as Oregon. There is actually still buildable land there at reasonable cost.
Vancouver should get ready to become the regional center as the Oregon side self destructs with Metro’s virtual Berlin Wall. Maybe it will be like East & West Germany – all the vitality and innovation occurring in free Clark county and Multnomah county strangled by Metro’s wall.
Thanks
JK
Maybe it will be like East & West Germany
Nope, no hyperbole there.
JK’s first comment in this thread and already we have Godwin’s Law.(*)
And you’ve credited words to Lenny that he did not write.
Actually the biggest transportation mistake was building light rail.
Light rail hasn’t literally leveled entire neighborhoods like I-5 did. (So much for letting the market decide. In JK’s stated world view, land-use laws and boundaries = bad, but wiping out hundreds and hundreds of existing homes so people can drive faster is perhaps not so bad.)
building a road only bridge and keep transit in free flowing general purpose lanes.
Those lanes won’t be so free-flowing once they hit the bottleneck in North Portland. You’ve previously advocated building a double-deck I-5 but have never provided the costs. Why don’t we tack those costs (including all the interchanges, viaducts, and overpasses) on to the CRC proposal now so people really know what some freeway proponents are aiming for?
(When do we get to vote on a stand-alone CRC proposal, anyway?)
There is actually still buildable land there at reasonable cost.
Yes, the market values the land less than it does closer in to Portland. Not a slam on Clark County, just the way things currently are.
(* Yes, the Berlin Wall came after the defeat of the Nazi’s, but it’s close enough that I’m giving it Godwin Status. So there.)
Bob R. Says:: (quoting JK) Maybe it will be like East & West Germany
JK’s first comment in this thread and already we have Godwin’s Law.(*)
JK: Sorry, Berlin wall was starting on 13 August 1961. (wikipedia) Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945 that is 16 years. So, NO it is not close enough in dates. Further there is no conceptual link between Nazis and the East German’s Berlin wall (except they were both socialists.)
Bob R. Says:: And you’ve credited words to Lenny that he did not write.
JK: which words might those be? (I cut and pasted.)
Bob R. Says:: Light rail hasn’t literally leveled entire neighborhoods like I-5 did. (So much for letting the market decide.
JK: It’s called public use. Public road building is even in the constitution! At least those people were paid for their land, unlike Metro’s theft by regulation.
Bob R. Says:: In JK’s stated world view, land-use laws and boundaries = bad, but wiping out hundreds and hundreds of existing homes so people can drive faster is perhaps not so bad.)
JK: Fast transportation is an important component of a high standard of living. But you know that.
Bob R. Says: Those lanes won’t be so free-flowing once they hit the bottleneck in North Portland. You’ve previously advocated building a double-deck I-5 but have never provided the costs.
JK: See our earlier discussion on the Tampa Elevated and the DVD I gave you.
Bob R. Says: Why don’t we tack those costs (including all the interchanges, viaducts, and overpasses) on to the CRC proposal now so people really know what some freeway proponents are aiming for?
JK: What interchanges? Make the elevated an express. Bridge to Fremont bridge, maybe Marqum bridge. A lot less than the “costs too much, does too little” light rail would cost in the CRC mega dream.
We could also double deck (per Vera’s concept) I405 from the Fremont Br. to the tunnel. I’ll bet a new second tunnel would cost less than the defunct Milwaulkie LRT line. And it would be more deserving of “economic development” dollars from the lottery. Then we could double deck clear through the canyon. Express of course.
Bob R. Says: (When do we get to vote on a stand-alone CRC proposal, anyway?)
JK: No need to, the LRT is dead and they will eventually be forced to build a road only bridge with road money, instead of a LRT bridge with road money laundered through tolls.
Bob R. Says: Yes, the market values the land less than it does closer in to Portland. Not a slam on Clark County, just the way things currently are.
JK: Wait a few years as our decline continues. See the recent business assoc study. We are chronically unemployed and lowered income. Obvious result of Metro’s land use policies.
Thanks
JK
We are chronically unemployed and lowered income. Obvious result of Metro’s land use policies.
cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Clark County’s economy has been struggling every bit as much as Portland’s has recently, despite a lack of land-use controls.
Oh, and at the risk of offending Godwin… those who are knowledgeable about political science know and understand that there numerous differences between “national socialism”, as the socioeconomic doctrine of Hilter’s party was called, and any of the variants of Marxism to be found on the political left. While undemocratic ideologies of all stripes tend to get co-opted by the powerful who justify their rule based on the good of whoever (quick: just how communist is modern-day China?), lumping them all together is incorrect–and silly when the actual topic of discussion are political debates entirely within a democratic framework.
which words might those be? (I cut and pasted.)
You credited, with big boldface letters no less, the following words to Lenny:
Moving on…
What interchanges? Make the elevated an express. Bridge to Fremont bridge
That’s not where more capacity is needed. The capacity is needed in the central eastside, where all the interchanges and viaducts are. Even an elevated bypass would have to weave through these vertically somehow, or be so tall as to ruin the skyline for generations.
maybe Marqum bridge.
“Marquam”
Then you’re just dumping a lot of new cars onto a bridge which is already full.
We could also double deck (per Vera’s concept)
You’re grossly misstating Vera’s concept for capping I-405. The concept for the top deck is parks and developed buildings, not additional surface freeway lanes.
I’d really like to see serious alternative proposals for our region, but all we get is accusations of totalitarianism (“Berlin wall”) and random demands for massive freeway expansion with no details or costs attached.
But please, by all means, put the double-decking of I-405 through the west side of downtown on the ballot, with a budget and everything. We’ll see how it does.
Bob R. Says: You credited, with big boldface letters no less, the following words to Lenny:
JK: That is a pretty obvious error in placement of the attribution. I do hope you noticed the pattern I usually use:
Other person
me
blank line
But you knew that.
Bob R. Says: “Marquam”
JK: My, my, aren’t we being pickey today.
Bob R. Says: You’re grossly misstating Vera’s concept for capping I-405. The concept for the top deck is parks and developed buildings, not additional surface freeway lanes.
JK: Of course I was making fun of our favorite newyorker and her haterid of other people’s mobility as she sits in the back of her chauffeur driven car. BTW, does still have a chauffeur, or did she finally learn how to drive?
Bob R. Says: I’d really like to see serious alternative proposals for our region,
JK: We already have all of our transportation plan done for the next 100 years: rail
Bob R. Says: but all we get is accusations of totalitarianism (“Berlin wall”)
JK: That’s Metro’s virtial Berlin Wall, not just any wall.
Bob R. Says: and random demands for massive freeway expansion
JK: Has anyone ever found a different solution to congestion that actually works?
Bob R. Says: with no details or costs attached.
JK: Just like the typical new urbanist proposal. North Macadam, tram, Westside Lrt.
Bob R. Says: But please, by all means, put the double-decking of I-405 through the west side of downtown on the ballot, with a budget and everything. We’ll see how it does.
JK: Lets do that with LRT first. And do with honest description of LRTs real cost and real lack of effect on congestion.
Thanks
JK
I do hope you noticed the pattern I usually use
Yes, it’s one that we’ve repeatedly asked you to change. The preferred quoting guidelines have been stated to you multiple times.
My, my, aren’t we being pickey today.
“Picky”.
That’s Metro’s virtial Berlin Wall, not just any wall.
“Virtual”.
But don’t feel singled out — I’ve also chastised pro-transit people from time-to-time about the spelling of “Milwaukie”.
Of course I was making fun of our favorite newyorker and her haterid of other people’s mobility
“Hatred”.
Knock off the questioning of the motivations of others, and the jingoism too for that matter. Vera’s been an Oregonian since 1962.
Get in line with the comment policy that’s been explained to you hundreds of time, or take a comment vacation until 2011.
“Thanks.”
When Vera Katz was mayor, she commuted to work on TriMet, JK. I regularly ran into her on the 17 when our schedules coincided.
Do people with chauffeurs hate cars? Wouldn’t that mean they had to ride in a buggy?
“Has anyone ever found a different solution to congestion that actually works?”
Road pricing. This region could solve most of our peak-congestion issues and make money doing it.
(Eh, Moderators? Could one of you fix the tag in my last post? Thx.) [Moderator: Done. — ES]
You’re grossly misstating Vera’s concept for capping I-405. The concept for the top deck is parks and developed buildings, not additional surface freeway lanes.
Wow, that’s pretty cool. I’ve wondered if Portland has ever seriously looked at capping I-405, but didn’t know they had identified it so well. Selling air leases to the freeway might be a decent way to finance some other ODOT projects.
And “speak of the devil”, there are now details available on suggested plans to widen I-5 through the central eastside, via a consultants report for ODOT and the City of Portland. BikePortland has the details:
http://bikeportland.org/2010/12/14/odot-eyes-major-changes-to-i-5-near-rose-quarter-44469