TriMet promises fresh eye on crime/Fearing Milwaukie’s MAX


The Oregonian reports that TriMet is under fire from the state legislature to “address real and perceived safety problems” on and near the light rail line or possibly face resistance by the state when it comes to appropriating future funding for rail expansion projects. In February, Trimet must report back to the legislature about the status of any safety improvements and the effects thereof. There was no mention of expanding the scope of the inquiry into the safety of public transit facilities in general, only safety of the MAX line, stations, and adjacent areas.

On Tuesday…Hansen acknowledged that the way the first MAX line was designed in the 1980s might be partly to blame for crime near stations.

The Blue Line to Gresham opened with some stops built next to Interstate 84, separated from businesses and neighborhoods by bridges that block views of platforms, Hansen said. Riders may feel more vulnerable there than at stops next to high-traffic streets and sidewalks.

But stops by streets and sidewalks make it easier to board without buying tickets. Critics have said those who don’t buy tickets are more likely to cause problems.

Hansen contended that perceptions of widespread fare evading may not match reality.

Half of riders use monthly passes, so they don’t pay a fare at stations, Hansen said. And police report that drug dealers pay fares so officers looking for fare evaders don’t catch them.

Hansen said he is willing to restrict access to a MAX station in Gresham as an experiment to reduce crime, as Bemis requested.

Read the full article here

Additionally, the Clackamas Review reports that some residents of Milwaukie are suddenly up in arms about the proposed light-rail extension to their city as a result of recent violence near a Gresham MAX platform. The article provides insight into the minds of some of the opposition to the years old, revived MAX project.

“If I had an old-fashioned telephone switchboard, it would have been lit up like a Christmas tree today” with calls on the light rail crime, Zumwalt, vice chair of the Historic Milwaukie Neighborhood District Association, told the council. “Someone is going to have to step up” and protect the city.

“In 20 years we’ll be sitting in a slum, and it’s up to you folks to do something right now.”

Mayor James Bernard assured a packed council chambers that the board would not allow a project until it has been deemed safe and unlikely to increase crime.

“I told TriMet if our police chief isn’t satisfied, I’m not endorsing the plan … and until he’s satisfied, I’m not going to be satisfied.”

But Bernard said he would like to see light rail come, noting benefits like sustainability, reducing oil dependence, redevelopment of downtown and access to jobs in the region.

The combination of these two points is key, as from my own personal experience I can testify that there are “real and perceived” threats to public safety at Milwaukie’s own transit center – where there is no MAX stop. The “real and perceived” safety of the transit-using public should be analyzed and addressed not just in the locations of MAX trains, platforms, and adjacent blocks, but at transit centers and bus stops as well. Additionally, residents of Milwaukie should take note that criminal activity has been an issue at their transit center years before ground will be broken for their light rail line. Our focus is better squared on improving public safety in general than it would be to attempt to prevent transportation options from being provided to the public because of misguided blame.

Read Fearing Milwaukie’s MAX


105 responses to “TriMet promises fresh eye on crime/Fearing Milwaukie’s MAX”

  1. “The Blue Line to Gresham opened with some stops built next to Interstate 84, separated from businesses and neighborhoods by bridges that block views of platforms, Hansen said. Riders may feel more vulnerable there than at stops next to high-traffic streets and sidewalks.”

    >>>> And they are doing this again, with the Green Line in I205 through Lents, of all places!
    I swear, the stupidity never stops.

    Putting transit lines in freeways is one of the most anti-urbanist things one can do, for various reasons. It is just a cheap way out, instead of doing it properly.

    The only thing that is OK in a freeway ROW, in MHO, is a BRT ROW WITH NO STOPS.

  2. I should also add that the downside of designs which reduce reliance on stairs and elevators is overall increased walking distance for transfers, something I pointed out to the CAC.

    I also wonder if this “one way in and out” criticism from the Oregonian article is a true negative impact on safety. It may make passengers feel somehow “trapped” on the platform, but what about the criminals? Will they feel more or less comfortable operating in a location where their escape options are very limited?

    – Bob R.

  3. Nick, the new Green Line platforms were designed using the CPTED guidelines, so TriMet has taken that into consideration.

    Recently, the URAC and Neighborhood Association in Lents asked the PDC to check into transit security for the new MAX stations in Lents. This is the response we recieved from Leslie Hildula at TriMet:

    Subject: Safety & Security on TriMet

    Hi Amy,
    It was very good to talk with you today and hear the good news about Lents. And, in response to your question, we do have some written material about safety and security. I’ve attached it to this email.

    In addition to distributing our fact sheet, when I’m talking to people about Green Line, I cover these points:

    * I describe how our new stations maintain open sightlines through the way the shelters are designed, with clear wind screens and tile decorated poles instead of walls.

    * We have moved the ticket vending machines off the platform so that only ticketed riders have the right to be on the platform. This makes it much easier for our security personnel to engage and enforce security policies.

    * Our landscaping is full of trees, bushes, flowers and decorative grasses, but all selected and placed to ensure that transit users have full visibility and our cameras can see into all the areas of the platform and the parking lots.

    * We have also improved the design of our camera systems to catch the details of people’s faces and license plates which has made a big difference in the district attorneys ability to get convictions when crimes do occur.

    * And our own experience, plus that of other cities, has taught us to remove grafitti quickly. So all our station platforms, retaining walls and artwork are designed for easy graffiti removal.

    * In short, we are embracing CPTED principles (Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design) in all our new projects and utilizing them in the refurbishment of our older station areas.

    As we mentioned in recent press releases we are continuing to work with local law enforcement to continue the improvements we’ve made in the safety and security of system. Please feel free to let people know that we would be happy to talk to any group about these issues.

  4. Its a bad position for Tri-Met to be in when the public perception of a rail expansion is equated with a decrease in quality of life. They really need to get on top and in front of this issue.

    I think I’ve even seen the negative thinking extend to current projects. I recently heard a neighbor of mine say, “What has the Yellow line done for Interstate, NOTHING! Just trouble and inconvenience!”

    His home value tripled, crime dropped on his street, 20 or so new businesses moved in around his home, etc. All of that he did not associate with the Yellow Line. Perceptions are very important.

  5. George,

    I agree, but I think that is less the fault of TriMet than irresponsible media coverage and the over-play of the ill informed opinions of a few very vocal curmudgeons.

    Honestly, I think we should have a big Light-Rail love event.

  6. “I agree, but I think that is less the fault of TriMet than irresponsible media coverage and the over-play of the ill informed opinions of a few very vocal curmudgeons.”

    Boy, with thinking like that Portlander’s are in real trouble!

  7. I think psymonetta is right. The “problem” is largely one of PR, rather than reality.

    “His home value tripled, crime dropped on his street, 20 or so new businesses moved in around his home, etc. All of that he did not associate with the Yellow Line. Perceptions are very important.”

    “I can testify that there are “real and perceived” threats to public safety at Milwaukie’s own transit center – where there is no MAX stop.”

    The reality is that the anti-lightrail curmudgeons are winning the PR battle. My favorite was the discussion here complaining about crime near the “MAX stop” in Beaverton. Ignoring the fact that the stop is also a transit center for buses. The fact is that light rail is no more the cause of crime than buses or automobiles are.

  8. “The reality is that the anti-lightrail curmudgeons are winning the PR battle. My favorite was the discussion here complaining about crime near the “MAX stop” in Beaverton.”

    I think Mr. Williams might have a good point here. Actually, the public at large is sick and tired of Max being shoved down our throat so finally many of us have something to shove down the throats of the pro light rail folks.

    -However, there is some factual data that cannot be ignored, such as: [from the tribune]

    “The decision was driven by statistics showing that a large percentage of all crimes in Gresham are committed within a quarter-mile of the MAX line”

    b-A lot of the hooliganism and thuggery that goes on in the back of a train is never actually reported to anybody, but it causes a great deal of angst to those people who have to endure it

    -Even Fred Hanson, the perpetual optimist says (once again from the Tribune):

    “According to Hansen, although the design worked well at first, it has fallen victim to the region’s growing population.”

    “And Fareless Square creates enforcement problems, Hansen said.”

    “In addition, Hansen told the committee that some of the east-side stations are poorly designed.”

    -So obviously there are indeed problems.

    The big question now is, can Trimet meet the challenge and change the public’s perception of the light rail system in this area? It’s obviously seriously damaged by recent events.

    I say it can be done, but Trimet as a company needs to change some of its priorities, and that is much harder to do than you might think.

    Some heads need to roll, which ones?

  9. “I think I’ve even seen the negative thinking extend to current projects. I recently heard a neighbor of mine say, “What has the Yellow line done for Interstate, NOTHING! Just trouble and inconvenience!”

    >>>> HE’S RIGHT! From having ridden the Yellow Line at various times, I can easily see how a lot of riders were inconvenienced by loss of their local bus stops, and additional transfers required because of MAX.

    All so that SOME riders could save up to 5 minutes(!) in travel time–something that could have been achieved by adding limited stop buses with signal preemption.

    And don’t forget about two traffic lanes being removed from Interstate–even a non-driver like me can see that that is a BIG inconvenience!

  10. “HE’S RIGHT! From having ridden the Yellow Line at various times, I can easily see how a lot of riders were inconvenienced by loss of their local bus stops,”

    I can vouch for that, its absolutely the truth.

    People that were riding transit MUCH preferred the bus to the train, more frequent stops, special stops,
    personal service etc.

    Max is great if your traveling a long way over an area where there are no frequent stops. Gresham to Hollywood for example, you get there quick and painless.

    Max is completely ridiculous in a city like Portland for local service.

  11. Nick, I assume the 5-minute figure you use comes from the article about the Yellow Line I posted here in May.

    Please note that the 5-minute figure is for rides that go into the heart of downtown, which includes all the downtown slowness experienced by both buses and MAX. Travel times along Interstate avenue itself, for people not going downtown, are better as well.

    Nick, Al, you seem convinced that riders hate the Yellow Line, yet ridership has more than doubled since the line opened, and that can’t be explained to any great measure by transfers, adjusted routes, etc.

    – Bob R.

  12. I don’t say they “hate” the yellow line, I just say they “preferred” the bus.

    How does that “doubled” figure compare with the old route 5 ridership? Do you have any of those fact Bob R?

  13. Are you saying then that the Yellow line has doubled the ridership over the previous bus service?

    Thats not possible because the old bus service also went to Jantzen Beach and Vancouver so that line had to carry more than the yellow line does!

  14. Thats not possible because the old bus service also went to Jantzen Beach and Vancouver so that line had to carry more than the yellow line does!

    This is exactly the point. Even though the Janzten Beach/Vancouver service was transferred to the #6, ridership on the Interstate Avenue segment of the corridor doubled. In other words, more people rode transit. People who never got on the bus started taking light rail. Why? Because “the people” prefer light rail to bus. For whatever reason.

    “The decision was driven by statistics showing that a large percentage of all crimes in Gresham are committed within a quarter-mile of the MAX line”

    The thing is, the Gresham crime statistics in the Tribune don’t actually show that the crime is related to light rail in any way. Yes, they show crime within 1/4 mile of the light rail station. 27.39% of vandalism reports, 32.25% of assaults, 30.56% of business burglaries, 23.24% of residential burglaries, 44.94% of robberies, and so forth.

    Now, the alarmists who are trying to scare us into thinking light rail is the problem just assume cause and effect here. “Bad guys ride into town on light rail, commit vandalism or burglary or assault or whatever, and then leave the same way. LIGHT RAIL IS A CRIMINAL DELIVERY SYSTEM!!!! BOOGA BOOGA!!!”

    Take another look at the statistics, though. 31.09% of family disturbances occur within 1/4 mile of light rail. How does that tie in to MAX? Are transit-riding families fighting over who gets the monthly pass?

    44.22% of DUIIs occur within 1/4 mile of light rail. I can’t think of even a facetious way to tie that statistic into the “light rail causes crime” hysteria.

    Just to make everything look scarier, the Tribune lists Gresham’s land area for comparison. 9.76 of Gresham’s acreage is within 1/4 mile of the light rail tracks. Well, that’s completely meaningless, since “acreage” doesn’t commit crimes. What would be more relevant is the percentage of Gresham’s population that lives on that acreage, and the percentage of Gresham businesses that do business on that acreage.

    If those numbers are around 30%-40% of the total, it would suggest that light rail has pretty squarely nothing to do with the crime in that area.

  15. Thanks, DJK, for that bit of level-headedness.

    But will our much-ballyhooed press do the kind of investigation necessary to answer those kinds of relevant statistical questions? Maybe we’ll get our answer at 11.

    – Bob R.

  16. “This is exactly the point. Even though the Janzten Beach/Vancouver service was transferred to the #6, ridership on the Interstate Avenue segment of the corridor doubled.”

    *If that is in fact true then I am indeed surprised. Post the link for the statistics to back that up please.

    “Obviously not. It would kill the story.”

    When discussing this issue on this blog I get the feeling I am on a merry go round and it’s going round to fast and making me sick!

    How many times do I have to say this?
    MAX IS NOT FUN TO RIDE, especially at night.

    You can quote whatever you guys want, but the public disagrees with you and your statistics, we want security, not statistics and excuses.

    And Trimet can take some of their Directors, and Supervisors that get paid to sit in vehicles and turn them into security guards.

    They have plenty of resources, they just don’t want to use them the way the public wants them too.

    TRIMET IS ITS OWN KINGDOM, it answers to nobody! And that’s why we are in this mess!

  17. I want y’all to know that I was just over on the “official” employee only Trimet site investigating this claim that the yellow line carries DOUBLE what the old route 5 carried.

    AND GUESS WHAT?

    The rider ship statistics for the ROUTE 5 ARE GONE!

    That’s right, they’re gone.

    They have conveniently removed the statistics for that route and all the information before 2004.

    Now why would TRIMET do that?

  18. How many times do I have to say this?
    MAX IS NOT FUN TO RIDE, especially at night.

    I think you meant to say “NOT SAFE.” You can say it as many times as you want. That doesn’t make it true. Back it up with hard numbers and there’ll be something to talk about. I assert that MAX is reasonably safe to ride, and I back up my point with hard numbers from the best sources I can find.

    You want to prove transit is unsafe? Show us the numbers. Prove that a MAX platform is less safe than any other place in the surrounding neighborhood. Prove that your chances of being attacked on MAX are higher than just walking down the street.

    Numbers. Hard facts. Emotional rants and long strings of capital letters do nothing to support your point.

    You can quote whatever you guys want, but the public disagrees with you and your statistics, we want security, not statistics and excuses.

    They aren’t MY statistics, Al, they’re Gresham Police crime statistics. They are the statistics offered to prove there’s a problem. As I pointed out, without more information, they don’t prove a thing. Unless you have some explanation of how a MAX train in the neighborhood causes more domestic violence or drunk driving?

    Al’s right about this much: “the public” doesn’t care about the facts, just the impressions. They want more visible security, because this media-hyped scare makes them feel unsafe. I have no problem with putting out more security personnel, as long as we don’t tap too much money that otherwise would go to expanded bus service.

    I really don’t get why Tri-Met doesn’t have more fare inspectors, though. From what I’ve heard, fare evasion is high. In addition to pushing fare collections up, fare inspectors put more uniforms on the train. They provide a calming infuence for rowdy kids and a security blanket for nervous riders.

    Maybe Al can answer this question: what happens to the fines that are paid for tickets issued by fare inspectors? Does it go back to Tri-Met, or is it paid to someone else, like the State of Oregon? If someone else gets the money, they really should kick some back to Tri-Met to hire more fare inspectors.

  19. I know how you feel about capital letters, too bad, the only thing left in america is free speech, maybe.

    I POSTED THIS TO MY OTHER SITE…ITS RELEVANT HERE..

    Houston bus drivers to carry Mace gel for protection

    The idea is to keep the stinging substance from hurting bystanders

    Seated at the wheel with a job to do, Metro bus drivers are at a big
    disadvantage when a disgruntled or deranged passenger gets physical.

    But under a program to be announced today, those wanting a little
    extra protection will be authorized ? after being trained ? to use
    Mace Pepper Gel in emergencies.

    Made from the concentrated oil of hot peppers, the product stings the
    skin and eyes and produces a suffocating sensation if inhaled, Metro said.

    Unlike Mace aerosol spray, the gel does not disperse and affect
    bystanders, although it can be squirted up to 18 feet.

    According to advertisements, the gel cannot be wiped off, and rubbing
    just makes it hurt more. Effects last 20 to 30 minutes, the ads say.

    Gel is a ‘last resort’
    The training began this week with a class of nine. Metro spokeswoman
    Raequel Roberts said the program is voluntary.

    “I’m sure more will want it when the word gets around,” she said.

    Metropolitan Transit Authority Police Assistant Chief Tim Kelly said
    he knows of no other transit agency whose bus operators are equipped
    with the substance, although it is widely used by police, including
    those on transit systems.

    Greg Hull, director of safety and security programs for the American
    Public Transit Association, agreed.

    “Houston Metro would be leading an initiative,” Hull said. “Over the
    past years, they have been very innovative,” he said, citing the
    surveillance cameras that enable police to see what happens on the
    agency’s buses, trains and rail platforms.

    “Where these types of resources are placed in the hands of personnel,
    it is key that the proper level of training is provided,” Hull said.
    “We don’t look at these tools as a panacea. They are part of the
    overall approach of hiring the right people and training them to
    defuse difficult situations.”

    Kelly agreed.

    “The gel is really a last resort,” he said. “We also equip operators
    with other tools ? conflict resolution, verbal tactics ? so they can
    avoid any physical conflict with a passenger.”

    Specific routes targeted
    The eight hours of training includes getting a gel shot while wearing
    protective glasses. The stream is supposed to be aimed at an
    assailant’s face.

    Kelly said the decision to use pepper gel was not a response to an
    increase in incidents.

    Metro also has 20 uniformed security police riding buses and trains,
    and 13 plainclothes “bus marshals” riding in pairs under a voluntary
    overtime program.

    Enforcement is targeted to specific routes based on crime statistics,
    public comments and service calls, Kelly said.

    Fare disputes cause most assaults on drivers, Metro officials said,
    but the new Q Card automated fare payment system should help.

    Based on 300 telephone interviews, Metro officials said, 80 percent of
    those polled favor letting drivers use the gel, compared with about 30
    percent who favored arming them.

  20. ONE SECTION OF THE ABOVE ARTICLE NEEDS ITS OWN POST:

    ***Fare disputes cause most assaults on drivers, Metro officials said,
    but the new Q Card automated fare payment system should help.***

    See Houston is doing something, PORTLAND DOES NOTHING!

  21. I want to make one more comment about all this.

    This is not the same America as it was when the Portland Transit Mall opened.

    America now is a mean spirited “every man for himself”, “three strikes and your in jail forever” country.

    The rich have gotten insanely richer while the poor become more and more desperate.

    The crime has nothing to do with max, your right, it has to do with America, and the poor and the desperate ride transit because they have no other choice.

    Obviously crime occurs where there is desperation and poverty, and the Max is where law enforcement needs to be.

  22. AND GUESS WHAT? The rider ship statistics for the ROUTE 5 ARE GONE! That’s right, they’re gone.

    Al, Al, Al … (I say that 3 times because you’re really repeating yourself here…)

    If you had read the original article which I’ve already pointed you to, you’d see that ALL my source materials are provided at the end as links.

    This includes Line 5 ridership from the Year 2000. (That’s well before any Interstate Ave. construction, and well before your claim that the statistics before 2004 are unavailable.) Not just totals, but stop-by-stop on/off counts.

    How did I get those statistics? I asked for them, and I made it clear I would be sharing those statistics with others. And I did.

    Relax.

    – Bob R.

  23. You can quote whatever you guys want, but the public disagrees with you and your statistics, we want security, not statistics and excuses.

    You might want to let the other people like me who are willing to ride it late into the night. Check out:

    http://www.gis.ci.portland.or.us/maps/police/

    You can see, there’s plenty of crime in St Johns, Jantzen Beach, along MLK, 82nd (even away from the MAX), near SE Hawthorn and 39th, etc.

    It looks like a population and business density map. MAX is designed to connect dense areas. Does it start making sense that the statistics are a little skewed?

  24. OK Bob R, that’s what I was asking for, and it is indeed a surprise.

    It defies logic actually. I don’t understand how its possible.

    But I know that your facts are well researched and done without bias so I guess you prove your point!

    More people use the light rail!

    Score one for light rail!

    (But we still need law enforcement!)

  25. I’m sorry, i continue to believe that max for local service is a waste of tax dollars.

    I can see the yellow line if it went to Vancouver, but as a local service, ridiculous.

    I need to take more time to study your report Bob R, something is fishy there, not with your report but the figures themselves…

  26. I suppose the “ego” factor, which is real, can play a part in these statistics.

    People who wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus with “those people” have no problem on a max or streetcar.

    That has to be the explanation, there is no other possible explanation, given the statistics provided to you are true and accurate.

    I mean what else would account for it? Are there park and rides along the yellow line and maybe people are coming from outside the district to take the yellow line?

  27. WAIT A MINUTE, how about transfers from C-TRAN!

    That must be the reason!

    Bob R, am I right?

    C-Tran connects to the yellow line doesn’t it?

  28. Al –

    Transfers from C-Tran are an important component of ridership, but don’t represent a huge chunk of the doubling. Forgive me if I don’t root around in these numbers right now, but here is a link to C-Tran’s Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for their 2006 fiscal year.

    The document doesn’t break out individual routes, but their overall ridership is less than 6,000 daily boardings. For C-Tran to account for the Yellow Line ridership increase, you’d have to assume that every single C-Tran rider crosses the river (not true) and also transfers to the Yellow Line (also not true.)

    But this would certainly be a good thing to follow-up on in a few months because C-Tran and TriMet have done a lot of recent reconfiguring of transfers and headways when it comes to Vancouver connections, which should boost C-Tran to MAX transfers a bit … so the best answer to this question is yet to come.

    Anybody have a source/link for C-Train individual route (and preferably stop-by-stop) boarding information, or a publication which states how many C-Tran riders cross into Portland and/or transfer to MAX?

    – Bob R.

  29. djk: Take another look at the statistics, though. 31.09% of family disturbances occur within 1/4 mile of light rail. How does that tie in to MAX? Are transit-riding families fighting over who gets the monthly pass?

    44.22% of DUIIs occur within 1/4 mile of light rail. I can’t think of even a facetious way to tie that statistic into the “light rail causes crime” hysteria.

    JK: That is simple: A criminally inclined element could have been attracted to live near the MAX due to MAX providing free transportation for drug dealers and gangsters. Indeed MAX may be a magnet for criminals that draws criminals from the whole region.

    The above statement is absolutely true as long as you note the use of the word could and may in the same manner that Gore uses it to make his climate points.

    Thanks
    JK

  30. Al:

    The park & ride lots probably have a fair amount to do with the increased ridership. In respect to the C-Tran connection, I doubt many people are riding C-Tran, transferring to the Yellow Line, and heading downtown. Those making shorter trips, maybe, but anyone going downtown or to the west side on C-Tran will use one of the express buses and get straight to the transit mall. That’s what I did when I worked in Vancouver.

    On the other hand, it’s possible that former C-Tran riders and now driving to Expo Center or Delta Park and doing the “park & MAX” thing. You might want to check and see if C-Tran ridership on its express routes to downtown Portland dropped off after the Yellow Line opened.

    I suppose the “ego” factor, which is real, can play a part in these statistics.

    People who wouldn’t be caught dead on a bus with “those people” have no problem on a max or streetcar.

    You’re being sarcastic here, but I think there’s a lot of truth to that. People who won’t set foot on a bus will ride rail transit. I don’t know how much of it is the perception that only “those people” ride buses and how much is the greater comfort of light rail, but it’s a real (if possibly irrational) preference.

    I can see the yellow line if it went to Vancouver, but as a local service, ridiculous.

    I’d tend to agree, if that “local” is as far as the line ever goes. But since the long-term plan is to extend it to Vancouver once Clark County/Vancouver gets their act together on transit, I have no problem with building “phase I” now. With the line running all the way to the Expo Center, getting MAX across the Columbia to the Seventh Street Transit Center will be comparatively easy. Mayor Pollard has argued that Vancouver has incredibly cheap buy-in to a multi-billion dollar rail system. There’s a greater chance Vancouver will make that buy-in with the Yellow Line and the Red Line both extending almost to the Columbia.

    I also support the Milwaukie Light rail line largely because I expect it will later be extended all the way to Oregon City, at least once Clackamas County becomes a bit more rail-friendly.

    [Moderator: Italics tags modified to improve clarity. – B.R.]

  31. “A criminally inclined element could have been attracted to live near the MAX due to MAX providing free transportation for drug dealers and gangsters.”

    I would love the esteemed members of this group to visit the new apartment complex(s) that have gone up next to the Willow Creek transit station.

    The words ‘criminal element” definitely apply there.

  32. Al –

    There are several reasons why people may prefer to ride MAX rather than buses — some of these reasons would apply equally well to BRT service with the right level of investment, of course.

    1. Large station area shelters with better seating than typical bus shelters.
    2. Ease of boarding – multiple boarding doors – fast deploying wheelchair ramps.
    3. Increased likelihood of finding a seat at peak times (at least inbound.)
    4. Smoother, quieter ride.
    5. No Diesel/exhaust smell.
    6. Improved pedestrian facilities to/from stations.
    7. Dedicated ROW for improved schedule reliability.

    Also, as I mentioned in the article, up to about 14% of Yellow Line boardings are Fareless Square trips, although to reach the full 14% you have to believe that nobody at Rose Quarter is transferring to/from a bus.

    – Bob R.

  33. Bob R,

    I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that double the people living on Interstate Avenue all of a sudden said to each other:

    “Look honey, now that we have the Max lets take transit rather than drive! The bus was so awful, but now we can take the lovely train!”

    That does not compute, sorry, there has to be another reason for the upsurge in ridership.

    Park and ride, C-Tran, something, because it cant be because the people on Interstate “saw the light of transit”!

  34. djk?

    Why are you being so reasonable with me all of a sudden?

    Your post actually makes sense to me!

    That’s a first!

    O:)

  35. I would love the esteemed members of this group to visit the new apartment complex(s) that have gone up next to the Willow Creek transit station.

    My best friend lives in the new apartment complex next to Willow Creek. She was one of the first people to move in when it was built. I visit her there a lot. (Thus, my frequent experience waiting on the platform there late at night.)

    I see a lot of families living there. A lot of children playing outside. I suspect many of the people there are poor. But slapping “criminal element” over everyone there, or even most of them, seems a real stretch.

    I suppose it’s a waste of time to ask you for solid evidence of a “criminal element” at Willow Creek (unusually high crime rates or police calls), or if you have anything to go on other than stereotyping from impressions.

    The above statement is absolutely true as long as you note the use of the word could and may in the same manner that Gore uses it to make his climate points.

    Not even close, Jim.

  36. djk,

    I should have been filming the Willow Creek Transit center over the last 6 months,I’ve got two weeks left before I leave the lovely environment.

    Maybe I can get some decent footage of the place over the next two weeks for you.

    C-U on youtube!

  37. Of course its winter now and that tends to depress “hanging out”.

    I should have been filming that place over the summer, you would have loved it!

    LOTS AND LOTS OF POLICE ACTIONS, almost every night!

  38. General comment to everyone:

    The blogging software for this site automatically closes italics/bold/etc tags you may have included in your comments at the close of each paragraph … A common problem with this is that when quoting multiple paragraphs as italic, the italics are shown only for the first paragraph unless you remember to tag each paragraph individually. Then, readers get confused about who is quoting whom. I try to fix the tags whenever I see this happening, but I don’t notice everything. So – When quoting others using italics, please be sure to wrap tags around each and every paragraph you want italicized.

    Comment to Al:

    It’s anecdotal, and a bit of a confession, but one member of our household (not me) who uses MAX on a routine basis (used to be every day when working downtown) wants absolutely nothing to do with buses. I have no trouble riding them (I grew up riding them) — I prefer rail for the usual comfort reasons — but if a bus serves the journey I need to make at the time I need to make it, I’m not going to rule it out simply because it’s not a train. However, clearly, there are individuals I know and trust who for whatever set of reasons just don’t want to ride buses.

    Now, a frequent criticism (valid or not) of government is that it needs to operate “more like a business”. Well, one thing a business does is identify consumer preferences. If there is a strong consumer preference for rail, beyond the rational reasons, shouldn’t that be a factor in transit planning decisions?

    Another anecdote: Whenever I visit airports with internal rail or “people mover systems”, I invariably see a family or two riding the system just to kill time, or perhaps taking pictures as part of their normal journey. (Cities like Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Denver) But in cities where a shuttle bus is needed to get between terminals or get to the bag claim or the parking lots, I never see anyone on board who isn’t there out of necessity.

    Same thing with the Disney parks: They operate buses, bus-like “trams”, and monorails. People will wait in line for hours to ride the monorail, but only ride the other trams when they have to. (Exception: Universal Studios, where the tram ride is an integral part of the tour.)

    Back in the ’80’s, when I was in High School in Clackamas County, various classes I was in would make trips to PSU for events and to use the college library. (Sometimes we’d go to CCC as well.) I think the statute of limitations is up by now, so I can confess to occasionally cutting class with my friends and hanging around downtown for the day. Prior to MAX opening, that meant walking — none of my friends wanted to get on a bus, even a free one — but after MAX opened, they’d go so far as to actually _pay_ to ride out to the Lloyd Center (it wasn’t in Fareless Square back then.)

    There seems to be a clear consumer preference for fixed-guideway transportation in a number of circumstances. Exactly why that is, beyond measurable statistics like ride smoothness, speed, room, frequency, etc., should keep the sociologists busy for awhile.

    – Bob R.

  39. Thanks for the story Bob R,

    I know that people prefer trains to buses, HOWEVER, Interstate ave being what it is, I cannot buy that the people living along there all of a sudden got the transit religion. It does not compute.

    It has to be access to downtown from other places, either C-Tran, or Park and Ride, or even people connecting to the 6,72,4 75 or the 40 bus!

    THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE PEOPLE ON INTERSTATE ALL OF A SUDDEN GOT RELIGION. {in caps for expressive purposes only}

  40. I’m relatively new to riding transit (I’ve only been in Portland since late 2004, I drove or rode a bike everywhere in Corvallis previous to that). When I first moved here, I avoided the bus out of fear of the unknown. I didn’t know how much to pay, I wasn’t sure if the driver made change, and I didn’t want to learn those lessons with a bus full of people waiting for me. On top of that, there’s the uncertainty in routes and schedules. It can be difficult to ascertain where, exactly, a bus is going, and whether or not there’ll be a bus later to get one home. Those little roadside signs don’t tell you much.

    It wasn’t until moving near a MAX line a year and a half ago, and using it and the streetcar regularly, that I finally felt like I understood the transit system well enough to get onto a bus with confidence. I could work out schedules, figure out how much to pay, and determine with complete certainty where the train was going, all on the sidewalk without people watching and waiting for me. Rail was like a transit gateway drug.

    I know it’s anecdotal, but I think my own experience is probably indicative of many others. Can the double ridership numbers on the yellow line be explained completely by people like me? I’d say it’s quite probable. I’ve ridden the yellow line a number of times myself, and I’d never have taken a bus up there.

  41. “The park & ride lots probably have a fair amount to do with the increased ridership.”

    The park&rides just aren’t that big. Yes, they are a factor in the increase, (maybe 10% of it,) but they don’t account for the doubling…

    “even people connecting to the 6,72,4 75 or the 40 bus!”

    The 72 and 75 never went downtown, so if people are transferring from them, they would have been on the 5 as well. I ride the 6 and the 4 fairly regularly, and a fair number of people get on or off at Lombard TC, (in both directions, and I doubt people are making a loop.) There is a Fred Meyer there, as well as a transfer point to other bus lines. Yes, some of the people get on the MAX, but even at morning rush hour when most of the people are going all the way to downtown, people aren’t jumping off the bus to board the MAX in large numbers, the MAX is faster from there, but not enough to justify the transfer if you are already on board the bus… There isn’t a 40 bus. (And I’ve never ridden the 44, although I imagine that it is like the 35, mostly commuters going to downtown, and therefor, and fairly fast service.)

  42. The reasons for the increase in ridership on Interstate Avenue are probably: 1) Changing demographics in North Portland, with many of the new ‘hipsters’ having occasion to go downtown;
    2) Rising gas prices; 3) Realizing that you can ride MAX for free, instead of having to pay on the bus.

    Al is right, they in North Portland didn’t suddenly get religion. To me as a rider, the service with MAX is inferior in many ways to the old #5 bus.

  43. “The 72 and 75 never went downtown, so if people are transferring from them, they would have been on the 5 as well. ”

    All the crosstown connections would have been made to other buses or the blue/red line, they would not have connected to the 5.

    And there are over 600 park and ride spots, I just checked that out. Then C-Tran has maybe another 1,000 or even more, who knows?

    Everybody that was riding the old 5 is now on the yellow line, plus the cross town bus connections, plus the new park and rides, plus C-Tran makes the difference, there is no doubt in my mind about this.

  44. “The reasons for the increase in ridership on Interstate Avenue are probably: 1) Changing demographics in North Portland, with many of the new ‘hipsters’ having occasion to go downtown;
    2) Rising gas prices; 3) Realizing that you can ride MAX for free, instead of having to pay on the bus.”

    #1 would explain a long slow rise in MAX ridership. But that isn’t what happened, it shot up, almost overnight. (And how much of that is caused by MAX?)

    #2 would apply to the entire system, not just N Portland, and again, would be a long slow process, not a big overnight gain.

    #3 would only account for the gains if half the riders were fare evading. And I have a hard time believing that, the streetcar has far less fare evasion than that, and a lot of people think that it is free.

  45. “I used to drive the old 5, and nobody in their right mind would have used that bus as access to downtown!”

    Well, 1,661 people/day did use that bus to access downtown, (including Nick,) so they clearly weren’t in their right mind… And, that might explain why MAX is so popular, you can ride it to downtown without being crazy.

  46. C-Tran connects to the yellow line doesn’t it?
    Yes. It started rush-hour connections w/ MAX at Delta Park in May, started their own shuttle between downtown Vancouver and Delta Park in Sept., replacing the amount they were paying TriMet for service on 6-MLK between Jantzen Beach and downtown Vancouver. It just so happens that tomorrow (Nov. 18th) will mark the first day that 4-Fourth Plain will run from Delta Park to Vancouver Mall. I have the electronic version of one of their documents during their service redesign project, that says extending route 4 “could add up to 1,900 daily passengers,” “Will improve C-TRAN system ridership by at least 10 percent,” and “provide direct service for most popular transfer movement (to Portland) from Route 4.”

    …here is a link to C-Tran’s Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for their 2006 fiscal year.
    Thanks, Bob! I’ll read it and add it to my list of ‘too many things I know about C-TRAN!’

    …anyone going downtown or to the west side on C-TRAN will use one of the express buses and get straight to the transit mall. That’s what I did when I worked in Vancouver.
    I did that too, except for Saturday and Sunday when I had no choice.

    You might want to check and see if C-Tran ridership on its express routes to downtown Portland dropped off after the Yellow Line opened.
    Actually, I think the largest change to Portland Express ridership came with the May 1, 2005 fare increase, which, among other things, increased the fare to $3/trip or $105/mo. (Before then, it was $1.75 for an all-zone transfer at a time when TriMet was at $1.65, or either agencies’ All-Zone pass.) At a C-TRAN Board meeting I attended earlier this year for their latest round of fare policy review, I heard that ridership dropped by 40% due to the increase (but it pays for 74% of the operations of those routes).

    …getting MAX across the Columbia to the Seventh Street Transit Center will be comparatively easy.
    Actually, 7th St. TC closed for good at end of service tonight (IMO: too bad, it wasn’t beautiful or luxurious, however it did get people to where they needed to go). The City of Vancouver will be opening it up for motor vehicle traffic shortly, according to the Columbian.

    I would love the esteemed members of this group to visit the new apartment complex(s) that have gone up next to the Willow Creek transit station.
    I was through there last week – used to go through there all the time when I worked out that direction. Although both myself and former co-workers understood the idea and policy behind putting apartments near the MAX stop, we all guess problems similar to Rockwood will develop after the apartments are no longer new and are going for bargain rates.

    There isn’t a 40 bus. (And I’ve never ridden the 44…)
    44-Mocks Crest used to be the 40 (I should know, I was just on it on Friday). It was renumbered in January, and was interlined with 44-Capitol Hwy. well before then.

    I used to drive the old 5, and nobody in their right mind would have used that bus as access to downtown!
    That’s the bus I obviously used to get to/from my job in Vancouver on the weekends. I really did ride it all the way from 7th to Downtown Portland, especially when transferring to/from 70-12th Ave. was either inconvenient (ie., 25 min. wait at Rose Quarter TC) or impossible (ie., before or after it stopped running). Remember, these were non-discretionary trips – I either took them or I didn’t have a job. Round trip from East Vancouver to SE Portland was about an hour and a half.

  47. “Well, 1,661 people/day did use that bus to access downtown, (including Nick,) so they clearly weren’t in their right mind..”

    Yea but did they have a choice! If you lived on the 5 you rode the 5!

    Boy, I sure have some memories of driving that bus, and they WERE NOT GOOD!

    There had been a multi bus crash where two Trimet buses ran into each other at the time. Every time I had to slow down to a stop the whole bus would yell “CRASH”.
    It was pretty unnerving.

    Standing loads to the yellow line, lots of guys with big bags of bottles and cans, the bags would break open and they would fall all over the place, the bus always smelled like an open container of beer, crazy looking families that had the appearance that they just came down from the hills, inner city ‘gangstas’,

    You had EVERY TYPE OF PERSON imaginable riding that bus!

    I use to call Interstate Avenue, alcoholics alley, it’s been more than a decade since then.

    I did drive up Interstate once a couple of years ago; I thought it looked much better than the days when I drove the 5 bus.

    At least I thought it looked better, I don’t know if things are still shaky over there.

    Of course Interstate and Lombard is not exactly the crown Jewell of Portland.

  48. Al wrote:

    Boy, I sure have some memories of driving that bus, and they WERE NOT GOOD!

    There had been a multi bus crash where two Trimet buses ran into each other at the time. Every time I had to slow down to a stop the whole bus would yell “CRASH”. It was pretty unnerving.

    Standing loads to the yellow line, lots of guys with big bags of bottles and cans, the bags would break open and they would fall all over the place, the bus always smelled like an open container of beer, crazy looking families that had the appearance that they just came down from the hills, inner city ‘gangstas’,

    You had EVERY TYPE OF PERSON imaginable riding that bus!

    If the #5 was as bad an experience as you describe (I rode it frequently in the 1980’s and don’t remember it being so bad), why are you so surprised that people seem to prefer MAX in that corridor?

    – Bob R.

  49. Because MAX is a crime-infested hellpit, Bob. Haven’t you been reading the papers? It’s amazing anyone rides it at all.

  50. I’m not surprised Bob, but the question I have is that % increase in riders.

    People that rode the 5 were not exactly in the social strata of the pearl district so I really don’t think they had much of an issue bus vs rail.
    And I knew quite of few riders who hated the new max because they had to go further from their house to catch it!

    AND:

    I don’t buy those #’s as an increase in transit use, just a redistribution of transit riders.

    The route I drove was a rush hour train, so all the trains on the 5 were not like that I am sure.

    BTW BOB, I have been wondering, and maybe your the man to answer this, why didn’t they bring the yellow line into jantzen beach? That was really stupid to stop at the expo center imo.

  51. BTW BOB, I have been wondering, and maybe your the man to answer this, why didn’t they bring the yellow line into jantzen beach? That was really stupid to stop at the expo center imo.

    I don’t have access to the CAC meeting minutes from that time period, but I would venture a guess that the project planners did not want to spend a lot of money bridging to Hayden Island before a decision was made about a new Columbia River Crossing. (The CRC process, flawed as it is, has been going on for a long time.)

    The position of the new bridgeheads and viaducts will have a strong impact on the design of light rail (if light rail is included), and it would be a real mess if whatever infrastructure they used to get to Hayden Island turned out to be superfluous, or worse, in the way.

    Also, the largest single-item cost in the project was the long 3/4 mile viaduct between Argyle St. and the Delta Park / Vanport station. Building another .4 miles of elevated transitway including a bridge over the slough may have jeopardized whatever funding formula they had going in terms of the extra ridership it would have generated. Going all the way to Vancouver can generate a whole lot of ridership, while going just to Hayden Island might not have changed much. Now, I realize this is the kind of totally grade-separated ROW that JK seems to be advocating for in the other discussion thread, but you can’t do it everywhere, and you certainly can’t do it all at once.

    Personally, I’d like to see a multi-modal crossing between the Expo Center and Hayden Island, carrying two rail lines, two local car lanes, and wide sidewalks suitable for peds/bikes.

    This would take a lot of local access traffic off of I-5, provide emergency access/egress for the island, and if done properly would untangle some of the mess in the PIR/Expo Center area and connect the commercial areas near Hayden Meadows / Delta Park to the island. Interstate Avenue / Denver Ave. would then be a through-corridor all the way to Hayden Island.

    – Bob R.

  52. “Personally, I’d like to see a multi-modal crossing between the Expo Center and Hayden Island, carrying two rail lines, two local car lanes, and wide sidewalks suitable for peds/bikes.”

    Thanks Bob, the above idea certainly would be the way to go, I mean why wouldn’t the planners do it this way?

    Everybody wins with your idea!

    The current yellow line is nice and all that, but really goes nowhere that anybody wants to go, unless of course you live on interstate ave or using the yellow line to get to downtown.

    It has no practical use for the rest of the TRIMET service area, unlike the blue and red line, which basically services the entire TRIMET service area by connecting the major cities and the airport.

  53. There seems to be a clear consumer preference for fixed-guideway transportation in a number of circumstances. Exactly why that is, beyond measurable statistics like ride smoothness, speed, room, frequency, etc., should keep the sociologists busy for awhile.

    Not so much as there is a preference for “new and different” or “nostalgia”, as would indicate your experience with 1980s era MAX (“new and different”), or Disneyland.

    Why would you ride a parking lot tram as a ride attraction? But how many operating monorails are there in North America? (Las Vegas, Seattle, and Disneyland and Walt Disney World.)

    Just because the Southern Pacific #4449 comes out of its roundhouse in Brooklyn doesn’t mean people instantly are going to ride MAX because both of them are trains. In fact I know many railfans that wouldn’t dare set foot on a train as a regular mode of transport (whether it be MAX or Amtrak) but will readily ride a tourist railroad. Many people will enjoy the sight of a train for nostalgic purposes; which ironically is one of the primary drivers behind expanding the Streetcar system (“remember when Portland was criss-crossed by trolley lines?”) (I also remember when private developers – not city government – built those trolley lines, a fact that seems lost on today’s trolley promoters.)

    And if the market for Class A recreational vehicles has any bearing, there’s certainly a large attraction to busses – given that a Class A recreational vehicle is generally built using the same frame/body as a conventional bus. Not that I’m suggesting that someone who shells out a million bucks for a top-of-the-line RV has an emotional attachment to a city transit bus, but the analogy is exactly the same.

  54. In fact I know many railfans that wouldn’t dare set foot on a train as a regular mode of transport

    Sounds like an odd group of associates you’ve run into. The vast majority of the pro-transit (which, for the most part, includes pro-rail) people that I know utilize transit to a strong degree, and don’t mind doing so.

    – Bob R.

  55. Erik, I happen to find Class A recreational vehicles impressive, if a bit price-prohibitive. Does that make me acceptable in your book as someone who doesn’t hate buses?

    – Bob R.

  56. Curious that Interstate MAX ended up on this string about crime…it has not been called out in the recent hysteria.
    Overall, N/Inner NE Portland is seeing less crime than 5-10 years ago, so this is reflected in transit crime. In inverse is probably the case in East Multnomah county and parts of Washington county…its a cheap shot to call this TriMet’s problem when its really everyones.
    It would be helpful if crime data were noted as per capita; more people mean more crime, but not more crimes per person. Its the old “eyes on the street” thing; ask any cop.
    Interstate offers safer service due to its design…stations in the middle of a fairly busy street with retail at most stations.
    The challenge on the I-205 and Milwaukie lines will be to have safe design next to freeways…the most unfriendly space in the urban world for people.

  57. At least the I-205 line is (mostly) built along the side of the freeway rather than the median — Park Rose station being the exception. The stations are also (mostly) at grade, unlike the Banfield stations.

    It should be possible to build mid-to-high density residential and/or office space next to many of the stations, providing plenty of foot traffic and “eyes on the street.”

  58. I know many railfans that wouldn’t dare set foot on a train… (they) enjoy the sight of a train for nostalgic purposes; which ironically is one of the primary drivers behind expanding the Streetcar system (“remember when Portland was criss-crossed by trolley lines?”)
    Yeah, the reason those trains were on the tracks, so to speak, is because people were using them, probably as a primary mode of transportation. IMO, there’s no way one could consider themselves a train supporter without riding them on a regular basis (probably a good thing I’m not on the railroad message board site then), or at least stating why they don’t, but how they would commit to given change in either their personal situation, policy changes at the agency that operates the system, and/or that they would use a new route that would run through their area.

    (I also remember when private developers – not city government – built those trolley lines, a fact that seems lost on today’s trolley promoters.)
    Once again, if people actually used said trains regularly, then maybe private developers could put together a business plan involving them that could make some money.

  59. “At least the I-205 line is (mostly) built along the side of the freeway rather than the median — Park Rose station being the exception. The stations are also (mostly) at grade, unlike the Banfield stations.”

    >>>> HA! Good luck!

  60. “Max is completely ridiculous in a city like Portland for local service.”

    >>>> And streetcars are even more ridiculous.

  61. “Its a bad position for Tri-Met to be in when the public percept on of a rail expansion is equated with a decrease in quality of life. They really need to get on top and in front of this issue.”

    >>>> Most rail expansions around here are associated with a decrease in service for many riders, as something that is thrown in my face whenever I travel around Washington County, for example.

  62. Most rail expansions around here are associated with a decrease in service for many riders

    As are most changes in bus schedules. They both also result in improved service for many other riders. The complaints in Washington County are from people who used to have direct express bus service to downtown at the time they needed to travel. For almost everyone else, which is the overwhelming majority of transit users, light rail was an improvement.

  63. “Just because the Southern Pacific #4449 comes out of its roundhouse in Brooklyn doesn’t mean people instantly are going to ride MAX because both of them are trains. In fact I know many railfans that wouldn’t dare set foot on a train as a regular mode of transport (whether it be MAX or Amtrak) but will readily ride a tourist railroad. Many people will enjoy the sight of a train for nostalgic purposes; which ironically is one of the primary drivers behind expanding the Streetcar system…”

    >>>> The vast majority of ‘railfans’ are oriented towards mainline railroads. To a lot of them, even something like the NYC subway system seems like a toy.

    This is why one can find TRAINS and RAILROAD & RAILFAN magazines fairly easily on a well-stocked newsstand, but not traction publications.

  64. “The complaints in Washington County are from people who used to have direct express bus service to downtown at the time they needed to travel. For almost everyone else, which is the overwhelming majority of transit users, light rail was an improvement.”

    Replacing express buses with an all-stop, relatively slow MAX was a BIG reduction in the quality of service. Even the mayor of Hillsboro has wanted Trimet to resume express buses to downtown (Portland Tribune).

    Now as for travelling around Washington County itself, there is no coutinuous bus line along Cornell Road, because the bus lines there are designed to feed into MAX. One now has to transfer at Tanasbourne to continue travelling along Cornell.

    Taking the #57 to a point east of Lombard now involves a transfer to the #58.

    I know from personal experience that travelling around Washington County can be fustrating because of the feeder bus to MAX situation. This is why many of the feeder bus lines have very low patronage.

    I am sure there are many more examples of this ‘degredation.’

  65. Most rail expansions around here are associated with a decrease in service for many riders, as something that is thrown in my face whenever I travel around Washington County, for example.

    Oh, come on Nick, this is glass-half-emptyism of the highest order.

    Since the introduction of westside MAX, transit ridership in Washington county has been increasing rapidly. There are clearly way more winners in this scenario.

    Or are you taking the position that we must never change transit service in a way that improves things for many people, if a small percentage of people are inconvenienced?

    – Bob R.

  66. “Since the introduction of westside MAX, transit ridership in Washington County has been increasing rapidly. There are clearly way more winners in this scenario.”

    >>>> So is the population of Wash. County growing rapidly–in fact, MUCH more rapidly than
    Portland itself. What do you think about that?

    The West Side rail line could have been built as a BRT instead, with POW and stations. With BRT, the number of lanes can widen to 3 or 4 to let limited and express buses pass. Buses on TV Highway and Cornell Road could get on the BRT ROW, eliminating the need for transferring. The would be less need for park-n-rides, as more people could get direct bus service to downtown.
    Other bus lines could be reconfigured to serve the county better instead of acting as low patronage MAX feeders.

    Remember, I am looking at this from the point of a typical rider. IMO, the lost opportunity cost of potential ridership by not doing BRT here must be very large.

  67. Replacing express buses with an all-stop, relatively slow MAX was a BIG reduction in the quality of service.

    Good grief! “All stop, relatively slow” is quite a statement considering that between Goose Hollow and the last stop in Hillsboro those stops are in dedicated ROW and spaced nearly a mile apart on average. (I counted 17 segments in 16.7 miles.)

    Rush hour travel time on that stretch is 41 minutes, for an average speed (including all station stop dwell times) of 24.4 miles per hour.

    By comparison, in another part of the region, the 99 express bus takes 55 minutes to go 16.1 miles, or an average speed of 17.4 miles per hour — and it makes far fewer stops.

    I’m sure an express bus on mostly freeway ROW or with signal jump lanes could beat that, but and express bus is only useful to a person if the express bus stops near where they want to go. That’s the problem with express buses — they serve relatively few people at great expense — as soon as you make them stop in enough places to be useful to a lot more people, they cease to be “express”.

    That’s where light rail acts as a good hybrid service — just fast enough due to dedicated ROW, cost-effective enough due to far fewer drivers needed to serve those passengers, and flexible enough to service more areas than a pure “express” service.

    Suppose, Nick, that MAX was not built and instead a network of express buses connected key regional centers. How in the heck would you get from your neighborhood to the express bus station? Why, by taking a dreaded “feeder bus”.

    – Bob R.

  68. So is the population of Wash. County growing rapidly–in fact, MUCH more rapidly than
    Portland itself. What do you think about that?

    I think that’s fine. How about you?

  69. BTW-

    I have noticed a very VISIBLE increase in the amount of police hanging around the transit centers!

    Amazing how fast things can change when the right people push the right buttons!

  70. HEY BOB R!

    On the other blog you said you would travel around the max and make video’s.

    WELL, I’LL DO IT WITH YOU!

    We will meet some Saturday night at around 10 pm @ SKIDMORE FOUNTAIN, ride up to the rose quarter, get off, make videos, next train to Lloyd Center, make videos,then Hollywood, the 82nd, the 102nd, then 122nd, then Gresham!

    Got to be a nice night however so that people will be out and we can have a realistic production!

  71. Al –

    I’ll seriously consider that. The main stipulation is that I would want it to be a “let the chips fall where they may” exercise … that the editing would be primarily for time and not to put a particular slant on what was seen or not seen.

    However, as you saw on the other (Tribune) blog, making the ride with two guys rather than one woman may defeat the point the original anonymous poster was trying to make.

    Somewhere, on what are probably crumbling 8mm tapes, I’ve got some video I took of the MAX stations and on-board the trains along I-84 (Hollywood to 82nd IIRC) way back in the spring 1987. If I ever find those tapes, maybe we can compare the rider profiles of then and now. :-)

    – Bob R.

  72. And yes we cannot ‘experience’ the single woman traveling alone, but we can ‘observe’ what’s really going happening on the max and at the stations late at night!

  73. I used to have a show on Portland Community Media so I can access their equipment to take your old tapes and put them onto format that can be downloaded onto a computer along with the new video then onto YOUTUBE!

  74. Getting mugged is the only real concern, with two of us its not likely.

    I’ve been mugged before, its not fun.

    Some of those stations are pretty scary Bob!

    Like Skidmore Fountain, Lloyd center,Hollywood,60th, 82nd, 102nd.

    The worst three are skidmore, Lloyd, and 82nd.

  75. Well, 60th is my station and I’ve frequently used it late at night without trouble. Most of those uses have been arriving home, so I don’t have reason to dwell in the station, but on the few occasions where I’ve used it as a late evening departure station, I’ve been fine.

    Then again, TriMet could make a fortune, at least for awhile, having an under cover officer issue fines for violating the “no smoking” signs. :-)

    That being said, I’ve noticed police activity at the station on numerous occasions, and there was once an armed police chase of a suspect-on-foot in the area whom, I am told, was not coming directly from the MAX station but instead had been camping along the freight rail tracks in the shrubs near the station.

    – Bob R.

  76. AND BOB R, just so you know I am dead serious, here is our intro!

    Al — I am serious about putting something together — but let’s do this sometime after the holiday and please don’t put my name on clips like that yet until I’m involved. Thanks.

    – Bob R.

  77. Cora,

    Make sure you get pictures of the drug deals and vagrants with all their dripping garbage bags. I would suggest you ride at 11PM on a Friday or Saturday night for the best action. The Hillsboro jail stop is fun, too!

  78. Right, the plan is to start the journey at around 10PM at the appropriately named:

    SKIDMORE FOUNTAIN;

    Were gonna head east this time, stopping to wait for the next trains at ROSE QUARTER, Lloyd Center, Hollywood, 82nd ave, 122nd, Rockwood, ending in Gresham.

    Should be interesting, lots of video opportunities I would imagine!

    Two ordinary guys and maybe a decoy gal.

    LOL!! What fun! Could even make the news I bet!

  79. Al –

    That sounds like a reasonable plan.

    By the way, on MAX this early evening I saw way more Wakenhut guys than normal, perhaps TriMet has put a few more of them on duty ahead of the yet-to-be-scheduled security summit.

    There were two on my eastbound train, who disembarked at Skidmore Fountain and proceeded to patrol under the bridge. There were another two taking notes on something at Old Town, then I saw one on a westbound train as we passed Convention Center, and another on the sidewalk at 7th.

    Now, regarding your proposed schedule, I ran it through the trip planner (using Wed Nov 28th as a placeholder date, which is the middle of the week, not a Friday, and not up against a holiday, in case it matters.) Here’s the itinerary:

    10:04PM – 10:09PM Red Line from Skidmore Fountain to Rose Quarter
    10:17PM – 10:21PM Blue Line from Rose Quarter to Lloyd Center
    10:29PM – 10:32PM Red Line from Lloyd Center to Hollywood
    10:40PM – 10:45PM Blue Line from Hollywood to 82nd Ave
    11:00PM – 11:07PM Blue Line from 82nd Ave to 122nd Ave
    11:21PM – 11:29PM Blue Line from 122nd Ave to Rockwood (188th)
    11:44PM – 11:51PM Blue Line from Rockwood to Gresham Central

    Does that timeline work for you? It’s a lot of standing around, waiting … might put us in Gresham a bit late. We could start at 9:30-ish and do a bit better but still be late enough for most of the journey to qualify as a “late night” experience.

    Does anyone else have nominations for stations to add/delete from this itinerary? (Eastside only for now.)

    If you’re concerned/interested on the making the news angle, I do know people, but I think part of the point here is to keep this low key and issue a thorough report … not yet another 30 second news story.

    The main thing I want to be sure of is that this project is low-key, and does not violate any policies.

    If you want to be especially super-thorough, we could roll dice and pick 5 random weeknights and repeat the same trip over and over, to be a tad more “scientific” about it. On the other hand, we could come to grips with our insanity and just stay home. :-)

    – Bob R.

  80. LOL – I love the plan you guys are proposing! Are you taking donations for your time on this project? I’ll contribute something. At the very least you ought to get to go out to a dinner at Stanford’s or somewhere nice!

  81. “Does that timeline work for you? It’s a lot of standing around, waiting … might put us in Gresham a bit late.”

    Bob R, as always your incredible attention to detail leaves me speechless!

    Actually maybe we should park our cars in Gresham then take the Max over to Skidmore and start there. That way we have our vehicles waiting at the end of the line.

    Your itinerary is fine with me!
    “““““““““`

    “The main thing I want to be sure of is that this project is low-key, and does not violate any policies.”

    Sure low key, we are just two guys doing a little research for ourselves, what policy could that possibly break? It’s still a ‘free’ country is it not?
    “““““““““““`

    “If you want to be especially super-thorough, we could roll dice and pick 5 random weeknights and repeat the same trip over and over, to be a tad more “scientific” about it. On the other hand, we could come to grips with our insanity and just stay home. :-)”

    I like the random idea! AND NO, I don’t want to just stay home, LET’S DO IT!
    “““““““““““

    “Are you taking donations for your time on this project?”

    That’s awful generous of you but unnecessary. I think Bob and I share some of the same interest in the subject matter hence its not “work” for either of us but something we want to do. This is fun to me, as strange as that may sound!
    ““““““““““““`

    It’s reality TV, transit style! Who knows, it may turn into something bigger than anybody expected!

  82. Well, Al, it’s not TV, but somebody beat us in the race to actually ride MAX late at night and see what happens: The Oregonian. Check out Nights on the MAX find anarchy on the rails. The reporter spent 3 nights riding, documenting some scary incidents (some retold, some first-person) and the opinions (mixed) of several riders..

    – Bob R.

  83. I’m glad that this problem is getting some press — it’s about time! One time I was riding the MAX from Lloyd Center to downtown and a fight erupted as it was running over the steele bridge. One guy got beat up badly and there was blood splattered all over the windows. They should just shut the damn thing down except during commuting hours and instead have a bus running at those times. Then these vagrants thug types won’t be able to get a free ride and TriMet would save a lot of money not having to run nearly empty trains.

  84. You know what might result? Trimet may stop running MAX a little earlier at night (like 10:30 – 11), and tell people to take buses, as the late night ridership is not enough to justify the cost of security personnel or police.

    It did something several years ago, when 1:30 AM buses were added to several routes. On the West Side, riders were told to take the #57 instead.

  85. “Well, Al, it’s not TV, but somebody beat us in the race to actually ride MAX late at night and see what happens: The Oregonian.”

    OK Bob, you wouldn’t be chickening out would you? I had this idea to go and talk to all the folks Who also happen to be out there., IT WOULD MAKE GREAT TV BTW.

    THE OREGONIAN IS NOT VIDEO BOB! Let’s see it for ourselves!

    “Trimet may stop running MAX a little earlier at night (like 10:30 – 11), and tell people to take buses”

    Yea, it’s always surprised me that they shut down the max but keep the buses running?
    Do other cities do that?

  86. Al, I did mention that it wasn’t video (ok, I said “TV”). Anyway, I have a friend at a local TV station who is looking into sources for hidden cameras as we speak.

    I’m leaning toward using a hidden camera at this stage because two guys standing around holding a camera might influence the behavior of others. (You’d either have “bad guys” acting more calm, or showoffs hamming it up.)

    – Bob R.

  87. LOL!! I know you did Bob, Imagine how this would look as a reality TV show, really, IT COULD MAKE NATIONAL NEWS EVEN;

    Bob and Al’s riding the rails reality show!

    haha,

  88. “I’m leaning toward using a hidden camera at this stage ”

    I guess thats a good idea, I think we should have both, one for interviews, the other for “the real deal”.

    We can tell people we are doing a research on late night transit use in Portland, which is exactly what we are doing!

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