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Via the SHIFT list:
An advocacy group in the UK is pushing for lowering speed limits on local city streets to 20mph.
Think we could do this in Portland on neighborhood streets?
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Via the SHIFT list:
An advocacy group in the UK is pushing for lowering speed limits on local city streets to 20mph.
Think we could do this in Portland on neighborhood streets?
24 responses to “Speed in the UK”
From the article:
“Previous research has shown that 20mph limits are only effective when vehicle speeds are already low or where additional traffic calming measures are implemented.”
I’d would like to see the speed limit lowered, but that is a lot of speed bumps, and speed bumping every street seems weird to me. Obviously, we wouldn’t have to speed bump them, roundabout would be a lot better idea, but… Couldn’t we just narrow all the neighborhood streets? With a narrow street that is only wide enough for parked cars on both sides and one lane of traffic, (total, not each direction,) people will slow down. And since it is less surface to maintain, and deal with runoff from, it would be cheaper in the long run. Of course, in the short run, we’d have to move some curbs, but if we did it when they were repaving, it probably would wouldn’t cost that much because of the savings on paving a smaller area…
… and if you narrow the street, you can use the increased space on the sides for bike/ped only lanes, a la the Netherlands.
Don’t you have to lower the speed limit first to allow engineers to design for lower speeds? I think Matthew is right that lower speeds means a lot more neighborhood streets will qualify for traffic calming.
I think there are many streets in Portland which already have one functional lane if there are cars parked on either side of the street. In many neighborhoods, however, buildings have off-street parking so the street parking is not that heavily used. So even if you narrow the street, you will still have three lanes for traffic.
As for bike lanes, are local streets really the place for these? It seems to me that goal ought to be to make the entire street safe for bikes and peds. I think some neighborhood streets in residential areas should be 5-10 mph with the expectation that pedestrians/kids/ etc will share the street. Automobile operators are responsible for driving safely under those conditions. Sort of the way most campgrounds work.
How about making the speed limit 20mph on NW 23rd? Seems like a good candidate, although it isn’t residential…
I don’t think a lowering the speed limit will do anything on residential side streets. First off, there are no police around to enforce these limits (and I sure as heck don’t want a “speed camera” that can see my house), and secondly, an overwhelming majority of drivers drive at a “reasonable and safe” speed regardless of posted limits. We don’t need to be penalizing reasonable, safe speeds when they exceed the limit. Police always have the “speeding too fast for conditions” ticket they can use to stop drivers who are exceeding whatever is appropriate for the street.
How about making the speed limit 20mph on NW 23rd? Seems like a good candidate, although it isn’t residential…
Actually, that was done earlier this year at the same time that the additional crosswalks were installed. The policy allows this in business districts.
The irony is that the residential streets off of 23rd are still 25mph.
an overwhelming majority of drivers drive at a “reasonable and safe” speed regardless of posted limits.
Which means that if you want a 20 mph street you need to design it for 20 mph, not 25 or 30 mph. And traffic engineers are not going to design streets for “safe and reasonable” speeds of 5-15 mph if the speed limit is 25 mph. So the starting point is to lower speed limits, the next step is to reengineer the street so people drive at or below those limits.
an overwhelming majority of drivers drive at a “reasonable and safe” speed regardless of posted limits.
Which means that if you want a 20 mph street you need to design it for 20 mph, not 25 or 30 mph. And traffic engineers are not going to design streets for “safe and reasonable” speeds of 5-15 mph if the speed limit is 25 mph. So the starting point is to lower speed limits, the next step is to reengineer the street so people drive at or below those limits.
1. Oregon has the Basic Rule, anytime you are driving faster than a reasonable and prudent speed you are in violation of ORS 811.100. (Everyone who has an Oregon drivers license should know that law, it’s a required question on the driving exam.)
2. ORS 811.105, which defines a speed which is an evidence of violating the basic rule, states that a speed in excess of 20 MPH in a business district is a violation of the Basic Rule. That is true even if the speed limit is not posted by signs. (Yes, that means all of downtown Portland is a 20 MPH zone, unless otherwise signed – which I believe means Naito, Burnside, Clay and Market.)
3. ORS 811.105 also defines 25 MPH as the “speed limit” in residential zones, although only outside of city limits and on highways that are not designated as arterials or collector streets. The ORS has nothing to say about residential speed zones within city limits; however it appears that ODOT (both the speed zoning program and DMV) believe that the 25 MPH residential speed zone applies even within city limits.
Ultimately, it is ODOT’s decision to determine a speed limit; under state law ODOT – not a city – determines a speed limit on any public street – including city streets and county roads.
So the starting point is to lower speed limits, the next step is to reengineer the street so people drive at or below those limits.
Incorrect. Just ask the folks at ODOT. Speed limts are determined by the 85th percentile of traffic on the street, and only lowered in certain circumstances. An artifically reduced speed limit does not slow down traffic – and in fact statistically can increase collisions and reduce safety.
JJust ask the folks at ODOT. Speed limts are determined by the 85th percentile of traffic on the street
No, they aren’t. Engineers will not design a road to be safe only when used at 15 mph if the speed limit is set at 25. And most people will drive, regardless of the speed limit, at a speed they consider safe and reasonable. So if you want slower traffic, not just lower speed limits, you still have to start by setting the speed limit at the speed you want people to drive. Because that is the target for the engineers. Those wide suburban residential streets are largely a result of that phenomena. They are wide enough for people to safely drive at 25 mph even though that isn’t safe for streets where kids are playing.
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/TRAFFIC-ROADWAY/speed_zone_program.shtml
A major factor in establishing speed zones is consideration of the 85th percentile speed. This is the speed at or below which 85 percent of the vehicles are traveling. This is used as an indication of the speed most drivers feel is reasonable and safe.
By the way, streets aren’t designed for kids to play in.
By the way, streets aren’t designed for kids to play in.
Which is the problem, since in a residential neighborhood kids need to be able to use the streets safely.
A major factor in establishing speed zones is consideration of the 85th percentile speed.
Which means you have to engineer roads so that people will drive at the speed you want, you can’t fix an engineering mistake with enforcement. On the other hand, engineers won’t construct a road that has a speed limit of 25 mph so that it is only safe and reasonable to drive at 20 mph. So if you establish the basic speed limit for neighborhood streets at 25 mph, you will get streets where it is safe and reasonable to drive that speed. And you can’t get streets for 20 mph unless you first lower the speed limit.
Eric, you took that information from the ODOT website.
ODOT does not designate speeds on local service streets. Their only jurisdiction within Portland is Major City Traffic Street designated streets, and Freeways.
The “speed at which most drivers FEEL reasonable and safe” is very different to the speed at which a bicyclist, jogger, mom with a stroller, or senior crossing their neighborhood street to get to the store would FEEL reasonable and safe.
It’s easy to FEEL you are piloting your 1.3 tons of rolling steel container at a “reaonsable and safe” speed. But that doesn’t mean that it IS safe.
At 20 mph a person has a 1 in 40 chance of being killed.
At 30 mph a person has a 1 in 5 chance of being killed.
I know what speed I’d prefer you to be driving at on my residential street in SE Portland when you run that stop sign and hit me.
Eric, you took that information from the ODOT website.
ODOT does not designate speeds on local service streets. Their only jurisdiction within Portland is Major City Traffic Street designated streets, and Freeways.
The “speed at which most drivers FEEL reasonable and safe” is very different to the speed at which a bicyclist, jogger, mom with a stroller, or senior crossing their neighborhood street to get to the store would FEEL reasonable and safe.
It’s easy to FEEL you are piloting your 1.3 tons of rolling steel container at a “reaonsable and safe” speed. But that doesn’t mean that it IS safe.
At 20 mph a person has a 1 in 40 chance of being killed.
At 30 mph a person has a 1 in 5 chance of being killed.
I know what speed I’d prefer you to be driving at on my residential street in SE Portland when you run that stop sign and hit me.
ODOT does not designate speeds on local service streets. Their only jurisdiction within Portland is Major City Traffic Street designated streets, and Freeways.
Actually, under Oregon law, ODOT has the sole authority to designate speed limits on ALL streets. A city/county may REQUEST that ODOT modify a speed zone order, but ODOT makes the determination as to whether a speed limit is changed or stays.
Yes, even City of Portland (or Beaverton, Gresham, Hillsboro, Tualatin, Salem, Eugene, Bend, Klamath Falls, Burns, Joseph) streets too.
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/TRAFFIC-ROADWAY/speed_zone_program.shtml
“If a city or county thinks the speed for a particular street or highway should be changed it can make a request to ODOT for a review and investigation. Requests are submitted to the Traffic-Roadway Section which initiates an investigation to determine if a speed zone should be changed. The Region traffic engineering staff conducts an investigation using procedures in accordance with nationally accepted traffic engineering standards. Factors taken into consideration are accident history, roadside culture, traffic volumes, and roadway alignment, width and surface.
A major factor in establishing speed zones is consideration of the 85th percentile speed. This is the speed at or below which 85 percent of the vehicles are traveling. This is used as an indication of the speed most drivers feel is reasonable and safe.
When the investigation is complete, a report with photographs detailing the existing conditions and proposed changes is prepared. The report is sent to the city or county for review. If the city or county agrees with the recommendation, the new speed zone is established.
If ODOT and the local road authority cannot reach agreement on the setting of a speed zone, the speed zone request is referred to the Speed Zone Review Panel. The panel is comprised of representatives of the Oregon Transportation Safety Committee, the Oregon State Police, the Association of Oregon Counties, the League of Oregon Cities, and the Department of Transportation. The panel hears ODOT’s recommendations and testimony from the local road authority and makes the final decision. It is the responsibility of the road authority to install new speed zone signs.”
The authority is covered under O.A.R. 734-020-0015.
From that same link above:
“By law, the Oregon Department of Transportation is responsible for establishing speed zones on all highways in Oregon. ”
It doesn’t say anything about local streets.
However, it also says the following:
“State statutes give Oregon motorists the following designated speed zone standards:
* 15 mph-alleys
* 20 mph-business districts, school zones when children are present
* 25 mph-residential districts, public parks, ocean shores
* 55 mph-open and rural highways, urban interstate highways, trucks on rural interstate highways
* 65 mph-autos on rural interstate highways
Posted speeds override these standards.”
So neighborhood street speed limits are set by state statute at 25 mph unless they are overridden by a different posted speed. That means that they are designed to be safe for the motorist at that speed. They obviously aren’t safe for anyone not in a motor vehicle. And 15 mph isn’t safe in an alley either.
City of Portland hardly does anything to enforce speed limits anyway!
You very seldom see speed traps in this city. Highway 25 east approaching the tunnel says 50 MILES AN HOUR, nobody travels at that speed, everybody is going 65+, unless of course the traffic is backed up, which it usually is.
If you put up enough ruckus the city will install speed bumps on your streets, that’s about it!
Does anybody see speed limit enforcement in this city? Cause I sure as hell don’t!
I’d support a 20 mph residential zone, only if all the main throughfares, i.e. Burnside, Glisan, Stark, Halsey, Woodstock — get their speeds increased 5 mph.
From that same link above:
“By law, the Oregon Department of Transportation is responsible for establishing speed zones on all highways in Oregon. ”
It doesn’t say anything about local streets.
Oregon law defines “Highway” as:
“every public way, road, street, thoroughfare and place, including bridges, viaducts and other structures within the boundaries of this state, open, used or intended for use of the general public for vehicles or vehicular traffic as a matter of right.” This is defined in BOTH ORS 801.305 AND ORS 366.005.
The word “highway” does not differentiate between jurisdictions. “State Highway” carries a different definition.
So neighborhood street speed limits are set by state statute at 25 mph unless they are overridden by a different posted speed.
I’m not disputing that, but you have to appeal to ODOT to change the posted speed; the City Council or PDOT can’t simply change the speed limit on a whim. If you don’t like it, change the law – you know how the initative process works. And you have proven my point that there’s really no debate here except that you want to argue every little detail with me. In the U.K. residential speed zones are 20. Here it’s 25. Again, you could change the law and make residential zones 20, nobody is stopping you. But do you have any statistics that show the number of people who have been hurt or killed in Oregon by motor vehicles travelling between 20 and 25 MPH, that would have been less injured or survived had the motor vehicle been travelling at or below 20 MPH?
Of course not.
I am told the state speed control board no longer meets, which complicates making changes.
In the case of NW 23rd Avenue, PDOT was able to change the speed to 20mph be declaring that it met the criteria for a business district. It could do this because there was no previous order from the speed control board.
I’m not disputing that
So what are you disputing?
The fact is that if we want to reduce residential speeds we need to reduce the residential speed limit, which is set by state statute. And so long as that limit is 25 mph, engineers are going to insist on building residential streets to be safe at 25 mph. That means most people are going to drive 25 mph and some will drive even faster than that. They aren’t going to re-engineer the street to 20 mph unless you first lower that limit.
And so long as that limit is 25 mph, engineers are going to insist on building residential streets to be safe at 25 mph. That means most people are going to drive 25 mph and some will drive even faster than that. They aren’t going to re-engineer the street to 20 mph unless you first lower that limit.
No one is forcing any property developer in the Portland metro area to develop their neighborhood vehicle accesses to “streets.
In fact, they could be alleys, private driveways, etc. So long as they are defined as a “street” they must meet state guidelines for a street, and the statute speed limit for any residential street in the State of Oregon is 25.
Just as – there is a distinction between a residential/local access street, a collector, an arterial, and the various classes of highways.
SoWa and the Pearl did not have to continue the grid system to encourage/invite automobile traffic; they could have made the entire area a pedestrian zone, with a few parking lots at the outer edges. They chose streets spaced every 150 feet apart (another irony; wouldn’t it have made more sense to use a conventional 200′ or 250′ blockface, reduce the number of streets and increase the amount of developable land???)
You don’t want your kids to have to worry about cars on their street? Don’t build a street. You want a street? Then there will be vehicle traffic.
SoWa and the Pearl did not have to continue the grid system to encourage/invite automobile traffic; they could have made the entire area a pedestrian zone, with a few parking lots at the outer edges. They chose streets spaced every 150 feet apart (another irony; wouldn’t it have made more sense to use a conventional 200′ or 250′ blockface, reduce the number of streets and increase the amount of developable land???)
Erik –
Using gmap-pedometer.com I measured the 4 blocks from Lovejoy to Pettygrove as approximately 1046 feet (from center-to-center), or 261 ft. centers. From 9th to 13th I measured the exact same distance.
In the South Waterfront, I found the distance of 3 blocks from Gibbs to Abernathy to be 522 feet per block (from center-to-center). The few smaller blocks, such as Curry to Gaines along River Parkway are 256ft, center-to-center.
Where are these 150ft blocks that you mention?
Perhaps that is besides the point: Why is it that people cannot advocate that the definition of local street be expanded to include speed limits and/or designs which are less than 25mph?
– Bob R.
You don’t want your kids to have to worry about cars on their street? Don’t build a street.
Most neighborhoods already have streets, so that isn’t really an option.