Sorry folks, I couldn't resist this snark...

In Chris's original post this morning (which may be corrected by now), he misspelled the headline as "Milwaukee".

I decided to see how Light Rail from Portland, OR to Milwaukee, WI would pencil out.

At 2100 miles, figuring an average cost of $50 million per mile (assuming that the mostly-freeway alignment would be less costly than close-in urban development), such a system would cost $105 billion. Still, it's only about a third of the cost of the Iraq war so far. :-)

- Bob R.

such a system would cost $105 billion.

But think of the development opportunities ...

I could live in Kansas and still take transit to my job near the Lloyd center.

Ron -

Not only that, but if you live in Kansas but have a flight from PDX, you can still take MAX to the airport. ;-)

- Bob

According to HB 2278 which is the ConnectOregon 2 funding bill, 10% must be spent in each of ODOT's five regions.

Assuming that it is funded to $100M, that means that Region 1 (which is Clackamas, Columbia, Hood River, Multnomah and Washington Counties) could receive up to $60M, and assuming that TriMet won't be the only recipient of the funds, Milwaukie MAX will receive far less than that.

Might be good for a few million, maybe enough for a EIS or a couple of cars.

Or is Metro going to find a way to put all its eggs in the Light Rail basket once again? Wouldn't we want to see a portion of those funds help pay for the Interstate Bridge replacement - after all it is a critical link to Terminal 5/6 and provides jobs for Oregonians.

Eric - The $100M for Connect Oregon is separate from the $250M allocation for the Portland-Milwaukie light rail project, for a total of $350 million in the co-chairs' budget for transportation investments. I spent the day yesterday in Salem thanking the co-chairs and others for their strong support for this project.

It is important to understand that the "region" (25 cities and three counties, Metro and TriMet) have made this project the region's number one priority for this session. The legislature has supported Westside MAX and Washington County Commuter Rail in the past, but no Clackamas County transit project has recieved state support. Therefore, since the Westside bonds will be paid off soon, we have made the case that this revenue stream should be dedicated to a project that helps Clackamas County cope with rapid growth. While the Westside bonds represented 11% of lottery revenue when they were authorized in '89, the $250M allocation for this project represents only 3% of lottery revenue today (due to the growth in total lottery revenue).

We still have over three months left before the legislature adjourns session and the strategy now is to defend the allocation from other parties who feel they were left out of the co-chairs' budget. We still have a lot of work to do.

PS - we still dont know what we are building in the Columbia Corridor so it is a bit premature to allocate funding until all of the governing bodies have adopted a locally preferred alternative.

Is this the Milwaukie east or west leg...??? [205 corridor or the other... and a link across the Willamette from Lake Oswego would be much cheaper..

Dick - This is the 99E (aka McLoughlin) corridor. Even though we unofficially call it the "Milwaukie" line, most of the alignment and stations are in Portland. It serves Riverplace, South Waterfront, OMSI, Hosford-Abernathy, Brooklyn, Westmoreland, Eastmoreland, Sellwood, Ardenwald, and downtown Milwaukie.

This is very good news. The neighborhood folks in those communities have worked long and hard to get light rail. Its good to see the regional leaders fulfill their commitment to it.

Even more important, it opens up the south part of the Metro area to further extensions of light rail and other high quality transit.

Bob R.

Funny thing. That route is already covered by the privately built BNSF/Great Northern Route. Forget the MAX, let's just run some more passenger rail. :)

It'd be a lot cheaper... it would also be awesome to have 2-3, or even 4 departures per day on the Empire Builder. If the equipment and frequencies where there, they could probably fill em' up these days.

Check the map...this is the UP line to Eugene which already has 4 s-bound departures per day, several of which stop in Oregon City.
MAX is a totally different animal...a hybrid between Streetcar and commuter rail...and very effective one at that.

Yeah, and I though the Empire Builder went to Chicago via Vancouver anyways.

It looks like its $4 each way to use take the train from Oregon City to Portland and back.

Check the map...this is the UP line to Eugene which already has 4 s-bound departures per day, several of which stop in Oregon City.

Incorrect - Amtrak has three trains between Portland and Eugene - one is the Coast Starlight and it does NOT stop at Oregon City. It stops at Vancouver, Portland, and then Salem, continuing to Los Angeles.

Two trains are Cascades service trains that originate in Eugene in the morning and terminate in Seattle, returning to Eugene in the evening. These two trains stop at Oregon City.

There are four trains between Portland and Seattle; two of them operate only between Portland and Seattle and do not proceed south of Portland. (I am not sure, one might continue north to Bellingham, but I know the other for sure is only a PDX-SEA train.)

There are also busses that operate Portland-Eugene on Amtrak's timetable; none of which serve Oregon City as well.

Either way, there is limited parking at Oregon City's train station and one must have a ticket prior to departure as there is no station agent and no ticket vending machine available to buy your ticket. I guess you could buy your ticket from the Conductor, but by the time he wrote up your ticket you'd already be on the Steel Bridge.

I stand corrected...there should be at least four southbound Cascadia trains to Salem/Eugene. Is our legislature listening?

Brian,

If the State is supposed to be helping Mass Transit shouldn't some of those lottery funds go to midsized communities, like Salem, Eugene or Bend?. Or how about some intermediate connectors (buses), so people wouldn't have to drive their cars from town to town? We have very poor bus connections between small and midsized communities around the state. Equip these buses with racks for bicycles and adequate luggage storage and see how many more riders there would be, especially if the routes went to popular recreational areas.

I will keep maintaining that the simplest AND most effective commuter rail from Milwaukie would be to simply connect with a Streetcar, via the Sellwood Bridge, to the Westshore line when it comes down. You could also have a Streetcar line on the eastside up to OMSI and the CEID. Total cost for these two routes would be probably a third of the MAX. Sending the MAX down to Milwaukie is establishing a costly precedent, since it would be more sensible to go all the way to OC, but by then the cost will be over a billion. But connecting these smaller communities, locally (i.e Milwaukie to LO or OC) is more of a job for a Streetcar than MAX.

ALso where we really need a new bridge across the Willamette is at Holgate Blvd over to SW Bancroft Ave.

there should be at least four southbound Cascadia trains to Salem/Eugene. Is our legislature listening?

Why?

The average ridership on this train is about 40 boarding (or disembarking) passengers at Oregon City, Salem, Albany and Eugene combined.

For comparison purposes, a standard motorcoach like what Greyhound operates carries just over 40 passengers.

Each year those two Amtrak trains cost $5M to operate. $5M could provide frequent motorcoach service between Portland and Eugene, AND service to the Oregon Coast, on the 99W corridor, to Bend, out the Gorge, and to Southern Oregon. Instead we are wasting money on two poorly used trains a day; meanwhile towns like McMinnville (population 30,000+) have next to zero intercity transit; Lincoln City has a bus to Newport but not into the valley. Greyhound's service has been cut back so that only two busses a day connect Portland with eastern Oregon, and the U.S. 97 and U.S. 101 routes have been eliminated.

Oh, and the Legislature is considering eliminating the general fund support for the two trains, and requiring that they be funded through Lottery dollars or another source. The only part of ODOT's entire budget that comes from the general fund pays for that Amtrak train; the rest of ODOT's funding comes from user fees (i.e. vehicle registration and gas taxes) and federal funding (from the federal portion of the gas tax).

Erik,

You seem to have a real axe to grind. I have to say, though, after reading this post that I am not really clear on what your point is or what you want. Other than being angry, what is your point?

Good service attracts customers...this has been shown with the Cascadia service to the north. I don't think I am the only person who would take an AM train to Salem or Eugene for a day with a PM return. Can't do it now.
Real rail service in the Valley would relieve I-5, just a MAX service provides relief/options to I-84 and the Sunset.

Rail service from Portland to Eugene is not justified, even though railfans may like it.
Service between Portland and Seattle is definitely justifed because of heavy ridership. This is what I mean when I keep carping about using rail when it is the appropriate modality.

Erik is right; the 5 million could be used for better bus service--this would accomplish more.
Of course, the railfans don't like this at all.

You seem to have a real axe to grind. I have to say, though, after reading this post that I am not really clear on what your point is or what you want. Other than being angry, what is your point?

Did you read my post? Let me bullet-point:

1. Ridership on Amtrak Cascades south of Portland is low. (On a load factor basis, we're talking about 20%.)

2. Bus service is cheaper, can provide the same level of service, or even more.

3. The existing twice-daily frequency costs $5M annually. The same amount of money could provide more frequent bus service, to more points.

If the State is supposed to be helping Mass Transit shouldn't some of those lottery funds go to midsized communities, like Salem, Eugene or Bend?
Agreed... those of us who ride TriMet take it for granted - but I think its the only 365 day/yr. local transit operation in the State. LTD doesn't run on Christmas, and Salem-Keizer Cherriots doesn't run on Sundays or even trivial holidays (do you have to work on Presidents Day? Cherriots wasn't running). Bend *finally* has a fixed-route system. RVTD in Medford/Ashland runs weekdays only. Although Clark Co. is in Washington, they came very close to losing weekend service (Thank you again, Clark Co. voters!).

Or how about some intermediate connectors (buses), so people wouldn't have to drive their cars from town to town? We have very poor bus connections between small and midsized communities around the state.
...meanwhile towns like McMinnville (population 30,000+) have next to zero intercity transit; Lincoln City has a bus to Newport but not into the valley. Greyhound's service has been cut back so that only two busses a day connect Portland with eastern Oregon, and the U.S. 97 and U.S. 101 routes have been eliminated.
Totally agree with both comments.
Earlier this month, I spoke with a woman who was gathering interest in starting a biodisel-based bus service between Portland and the coast (probably Clatsop Co.). She said she'd be in touch; her next call was to find out how much insurance would cost for such an operation... haven't heard back from her (I'm guessing it's THAT [holds hands about 2 ft. apart] much).
Additionally, as I've previously stated here, I lived in McMinnville and Newberg in the late 90s (force, not choice), and was completely appalled by the lack of viable transit service to anywhere. A show on cable access there said that because all the transit money was going to construct Westside MAX, there was none available for the rest of the state, including Yamhill Co., where if funds were available, they could request some to run a simple bus system, versus the joke they had at the time.

Jason Barbour states:
"Earlier this month, I spoke with a woman who was gathering interest in starting a biodisel-based bus service between Portland and the coast (probably Clatsop Co.). She said she'd be in touch; her next call was to find out how much insurance would cost for such an operation... haven't heard back from her"

Doug Allen and myself owned a small bus company that operated between Portland and the Coast for five years after Greyhound ceased serving Tillamook. We built ridership up from Greyhound’s 300 passengers a month to about 1,000 by providing two round trips a day, 365 days a year. We served Tillamook, Garibaldi, Rockaway, Wheeler, Manzanita, Cannon Beach and Seaside.

Although we were able to operate at a small profit with no government subsidies and never had a claim against us, the cost of insurance was a primary reason we decided to sell to another bus company in 1990.

Some sort of agency needs to run intercity coach (and rail, where appropriate) service throughout the Willamette Valley, connecting all of these mid-sized places together. Local agencies to a varying degree serve the local areas fine, but the intercity connections are definitely scattered. The state isn't really set up for it, and local agencies should be focusing locally.

The private sector (Greyhound) has pulled out of this market in favor of longer, faster trips between larger cities. Nobody is stopping a new private entrant from stepping up, either.

At a minimum, it would be great to have coordinated schedules and fares among systems that do connect.