Seattle is striking up a manufacturing partnership for its next streetcar line.
The partnership is with Inekon, the lead partner in the manufacturing of Portland’s first ten streetcars (partnered with Skoda for the first seven cars, then Dopravní Podnik Ostrava for the next three).
I was part of a delegation to the Czech Republic in 2005 to check on the progress of those last three. A secondary purpose of that trip was to firm up a partnership between Oregon Iron Works and Inekon. When that didn’t happen, OIW partnered with Skoda instead…
21 responses to “Apparently, We’re Going to Have Competition in the NW for Building Streetcars”
Curious, I Googled “Dopravní Podnik Ostrava”, and found a post here from 2005. Some good background.
Curious, are the new streetcars we’re getting from OIW the improved “Trio” models or the original ones? And which model exactly is Seattle likely to be getting?
Same company that assembled the first generation Talgo trains for Amtrak.
Of course, Oregon (which blew $35 million on two unnecessary Talgo trains) is having its trains built in Wisconsin, while TriMet bailed out a Colorado railcar manufacturer (now out of business) and Oregon Iron Works has exactly ONE streetcar to its credit despite how many years of “operation” and government subsidy?
I bet Pacifica will have more Streetcars built and in operation before OIW gets one car actually in revenue service. Meanwhile, Oregon has how many shuttered RV factories and the Freightliner plant on Swan Island that even with the latest announcement will still be far, far below capacity, that could have been used to recruit bus manufacturers (New Flyer has an over two year backlog for buses) with trained, capable employees, excess factory space throughout the state – nearly all of it adjacent to both Interstate highways and railroads – excess, cheap electricity…and instead we’d rather see those plants empty than creating good, “green” jobs – all because Oregon is stuck in its pro-rail/anti-bus mentality. Freightliner owns three bus brands…surely Orion (which counts Cherriots as a customer) could open up shop here in Oregon and employ several hundred folks to build buses. IC, which bought Monaco Coach, has gotten big into the bus manufacturing business but instead is moving most of their production (what’s left, anyways) out of Oregon.
OIW/United Streetcar started from a Skoda design (probably closer to the original seven) but has modified the design of use domestic components and integrated a number of requirements for the U.S. market, so I don’t know that it’s a fair comparison.
Is the market really big enough for two domestic manufacturers of very similar models? I think healthy competition is a good thing, but it strikes me as a bit odd that this is happening so early in the development of the “domestic modern streetcar” market.
Atlanta went with Siemens for their line, so you could say that we have at least three now.
Seattle is actually fighting to get New Flyer to build a facility here to build buses, with a partnership with Cummins.
The Skoda/OIW is like the original seven streetcars, with a different propulsion system, based off the Skoda 10T series.
The Inekon/Pacifica will be like the Portland Streetcar/Seattle Streetcar models, based off the Trio line.
The big difference between the models will be price, manufacturing practice, and marketing.
This will make 3 manufactures in the US since Siemens won the Atlanta bid, though the Siemens model is really just a smaller version of the S70 light rail vehicle.
Also, as for the Talgo sets, Washington State is planning on leasing those trainsets when they arrive finish the Bistro/Lounge car remodel on the existing Cascades trainsets.
Seattle is actually fighting to get New Flyer to build a facility here to build buses, with a partnership with Cummins.
The Skoda/OIW is like the original seven streetcars, with a different propulsion system, based off the Skoda 10T series.
The Inekon/Pacifica will be like the Portland Streetcar/Seattle Streetcar models, based off the Trio line.
The big difference between the models will be price, manufacturing practice, and marketing.
This will make 3 manufactures in the US since Siemens won the Atlanta bid, though the Siemens model is really just a smaller version of the S70 light rail vehicle.
Also, as for the Talgo sets, Washington State is planning on leasing those trainsets when they arrive finish the Bistro/Lounge car remodel on the existing Cascades trainsets.
Brian,
Thanks for the info on the Cascades trainsets. I have been surprised by the lack of public information on these trains. So WSDOT will be leasing them to finish the Bistro cars, then put them into service? How is this going to affect the Cascades service? Will we have more trips to Eugene, more to Seattle, or both?
Is this due to the delays in getting street cars built at OR Iron Works? or just a bit of sibbling rivalry…how could Seattle have street cars built in Oregon?
FYI, Daimler Trucks North America (formerly named Freightliner LLC) based on Swan Island builds “Freightliner” brand trucks in Mexico and the Carolinas. The new “Cascadia” model was designed in Portland. They build the “Western Star” brand trucks in Portland on Swan Island and just announced an increase in production adding over 400 jobs. Daimler also manufactures Orion buses for the North American market; TriMet has a long term contract with New Flyer. Freightliner was originally purchased by Daimler in 1981
Chris I; There hasn’t been hardly any information. I got that tidbit from the North American Talgo rep. Even the Talgo USA website is gone now.
Per said rep, the will not be any interruption of service for the Cascades trains. There is currently no extra money for additional trains between Portland and Eugene, so the new trainsets will be added to the Cascades rotation, every 120 days. During the maintenance, the work on the current cars will be done to finish the bistro and lounge car redesigns.
Once the work on the cars are done, the new trainsets will be used on an as-needed basis, meaning, they’ll sit and rust to the rails until additional trains can be ran.
Right now the only new trains slated are in 2016/2017 time frame and only 2 additional round trips between Seattle and Portland.
It really is a shame how slow ODOT/WSDOT is when it comes to expanding the trains… Really 4 PDX-EUG, 10 SEA-PDX and 4 SEA-VBC should be where we should be at now… alas, we are at the will of the freight railroads…
And by slow, I mean when compared to other states in similar situation, budget wise… Chicago – St. Louis for example is getting 110mph and going from 5 daily to 8 daily by 2014, on existing ROW without anything special.
Amtrak California/CalTrans will be added several additional round trips to all trains in the next 2 years… No idea why it takes so long for our region to get anything done, period.
the Freightliner plant on Swan Island that even with the latest announcement will still be far, far below capacity, that could have been used to recruit bus manufacturers
If that’s true, then how about trying to get a state law passed that requires transit agencies to purchase buses from there (unless they have a good reason) in exchange for a manufacturing line being started?
the Freightliner plant on Swan Island that even with the latest announcement will still be far, far below capacity, that could have been used to recruit bus manufacturers
If that’s true, then how about trying to get a state law passed that requires transit agencies to purchase buses from there (unless they have a good reason) in exchange for a manufacturing line being started?
Brian,
It seems like this would be a better option for the new trains:
1. Put one new trainset in service, and dismantle one of the existing trains, adding two cars to the remaining trains. This will add capacity without requiring extra slots.
2. This will leave one trainset available, so they can rotate sets around for maintenance.
3. Use this extra trainset for special events, like UofO games, Timbers/Sounders matches, Mariners games, holiday peak travel, etc. I’m assuming they are allowed to add special event trains, as they do this every year for the holiday peak travel season.
This will add capacity without requiring extra slots
Do we need extra capacity on the existing Amtrak Cascades trains? Are people being routinely turned away because the trains are full?
The weekend trains are often sold out. I took a train on a Wednesday morning a few years back and had to sit in the dining car because they were out of seats.
Ridership has been steadily rising. Capacity was increased slightly with the 2nd Vancouver train two years ago, but most of the growth was between PDX and SEA, which have not had a capacity increase:
http://seattletransitblog.com/2011/07/22/cascades-ridership-breaks-another-record/
I should add:
The great thing about trains, is that adding a few cars adds almost no operating cost, but will increase revenue. It is the best move until we can get more daily trains between Portland and Seattle.
I’m not sure how often it happens, but on multiple occasions last year I’ve had guests come visit from Seattle who have encountered sold-out trains when booking. Some of those were weekday trips, and all non-holidays.
I’ve been having to drive down for former work related items and would try to take the Cascades on Thursdays. It was often sold out on the return (#14 Coast Starlight and Cascades #508)
Adding capacity would be a great idea as well. I haven’t heard anything on that front other than WSDOT was going to hold on doing that until they ordered the new locomotives and trainsets.
Amtrak could get six trains a day PDX-SEA right now, with existing equipment, simply by tightening up turnarounds in Portland and Seattle.
Some trains sit for hours at either station and the popular airline industry saying is that “planes only make money when they’re in the air”. Likewise, trains don’t make money occupying station tracks.
Major railroads in Europe and Japan have figured out how to get trains in and out of major stations – and we’re talking trains with far more ridership than the Amtrak Cascades – in less than 20 minutes. Surely, 30 minutes ought to be more than sufficient to park a train, unload and load, and ship it out the other way.
PDX-EUG is wasted time on the train – the average passenger load is 25%. That means the train is actually burning more fuel by hauling around its own weight, than it is doing meaningful work. It would actually be more environmentally friendly, more cost-effective, and provide better service to run buses on the route. Why? Because two buses would handle the same work as one train, require two fewer employees, and significantly lower fuel burn. Since the existing Amtrak Thruway buses (some of which run the PDX-EUG route) don’t even get a state or federal subsidy, AND pay all of the taxes required of anyone but Amtrak, service could be increased throughout the day, possibly even to hourly service.
The PDX-SEA corridor (which can fill trains easily) gets two additional trains at NO ADDITIONAL COST; PDX-EUG gets far more and better service AT NO ADDITIONAL COST…but we’re too stuck in our “rail at all cost-buses are for losers” mentality that we’d rather have two poorly scheduled trains with poor ridership than to actually focus on service first, mode second. (And now we’ve blown $36 million on two unnecessary, overpriced, oversized Talgo trains that could have been better spent to buy 70 buses that would provide service not just in the Portland-Eugene corridor but also to many off-corridor locations such as Central Oregon, Southern Oregon, the Coast, and to off-I-5 locations like McMinnville, Dallas and Corvallis that are inaccessible by Amtrak Cascades.)
Erik,
I was under the impression that BNSF was preventing Amtrak from running additional trains on SEA-PDX, particularly due to the bottleneck of the single-track tunnel at Point Defiance. Additionally, because of the delays to Amtrak trains, mostly because of this tunnel, Amtrak has to have schedule padding to keep the trains on time. Of course, the Point Defiance bypass should resolve these problems, and allow more round trips. I think they should be able to achieve 3 hours for PDX-SEA once this bypass opens. It only saves about 10 minutes, but the improved reliability should allow them to remove some of the schedule padding.