"Makes sense to me"

That's because you haven't thought out how the illegal immigrants use those drivers licences to falsy legitimize their illegal presence and further their illegitimacy.
It's a free ticket for every public agency to pass off the responsibility of enforcing immigration laws. While every police and public agency neglects to check legal status employers are targetted to do their job for them.

"employers are targetted to do their job for them."

Employers are responsible for ensuring their employees have the legal documents required for employment. There are many people legally in the United States who nonetheless cannot work here legally. Requiring an immigrant has a green card is no different than requiring a trucking company to make sure their truck drivers have the appropriate license.

Having a drivers license doesn't confer any special rights on anyone beyond certifying that they know how to drive. We all benefit from that, just as we all benefit from immunizations.

"Requiring an immigrant has a green card is no different than requiring a trucking company to make sure their truck drivers have the appropriate license"

That's all we want the DMV to do. Ask for a green card.
Why does it make sense for employers to ask but not our government agencies which we pay to enforce the law.

"Having a drivers license doesn't confer any special rights on anyone beyond certifying that they know how to drive."

Wrong. Once in hand the license extends the ability to illegally gain more services and the illegally gotten jobs you talk about.

What is a employer to do when handed an Oregon driver's license from an illegal alien?
Do what the DMV and police and other agencies refuse to do?

OK look guys. I'm currently living down here in Texas while my wife finishes up her medical residency then we plan to move back to Portland. At the public clinic where my wife works, at least 50% of the patients are illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican but a trickle form Central America. You think Portland has seen an influx of immigrants in recent years, come to Texas and see what it really looks like. My wife is from Chile but is a legal immigrant with a green card because we are married.

You know what? In the past two years since we've been here she's gone from being sympathetic to these issues as a fellow Hispanic immigrant, to being absolutely against any recognition of illegal immigrants of any sort. The fraud is just unbelievable and she is asked to perpetrate it on a daily basis by "knowingly" accepting false names. Half the patients she gets are using fraudulent names. They get fraudulent SS cards and fraudulent green cards "off the street" which are used to gain employment here. Everyone knows it and employers deliberately do not look very closely. Medicaid is paying for most of their medical care because hospitals and clinics do not look very hard at IDs.

I would be OK with what you suggest if driver's licenses were not used for ID as is the case in many other countries. In Chile, for example, everyone carries a national ID card called a Cedula. It pretty much looks like a typical US driver's license with photo and all sorts of tamper-proof features. The driver's license is just a cheap laminated card with your name and cedula number on it and no photo. Of course if a cop pulls you over you show him BOTH cards. Chilean Passports look pretty much like US passports except that they carry the same cedula number as your national ID so unlike the US, there is no separate passport number. The same number is used for everything.

But that's not the case here in the US. Driver's licenses are used as official ID for every purpose except international travel. Granting them to illegal immigrants who are most likely using false names and carrying false documents would be a HUGE mistake absent the implementation of some alternative form of ID to replace the driver's license.

In any event, MEXICAN driver's licenses are valid in the US. There's no reason why all these Mexican immigrants can't carry valid Mexican licenses. But oh wait, that would mean that they would have to show their REAL names, not the fake names they are using in the US. Oops.

In any event, nothing will ever change the current situation unless/until the US government gets serious about requiring employers to verify IDs. If the Federal goverment can establish a national background check for gun purchases, they can certainly implement the same system for employment. All it would take is a national database to verify SS numbers and other ID. The employer goes online to verify an ID and can't hire the employee until the background check comes back clean. Of course this will never happen because the Republican business community wants the cheap immigrant labor pool that has no rights, and the Democrat/Hispanic community opposes regulations that would crack down too much on immigrants.

Governor Richardson is the Governor of New Mexico rather than Arizona.

I was just talking with a friend from Spain who had difficulty purchasing items or renting a video without an driver's license. My suggestion is that we use identity cards anyhow.

"That's all we want the DMV to do. Ask for a green card."

There are people who don't have green cards that still need to drive. What would you personally use to get a drivers license? Your birth certificate? How does DMV verify that?

"Why does it make sense for employers to ask but not our government agencies which we pay to enforce the law."

We require employers to verify people have the legal status to work. Government agencies have to do the same thing. Employers don't have to verify their customers are legal residents.

"They get fraudulent SS cards and fraudulent green cards "off the street" which are used to gain employment here. Everyone knows it and employers deliberately do not look very closely. Medicaid is paying for most of their medical care because hospitals and clinics do not look very hard at IDs."

None of which is prevented by asking for green cards in order to get a drivers license.

We require employers to verify people have the legal status to work. Government agencies have to do the same thing.
You are shifting bobbing and weaving. Our government agencies (including police)are specifically told not to ask about legal status.
You are a hypocrit if you want employers to ask but it's ok for opur government not to.

Arizona voters passed an intitiative which prohibits illegals from getting certain services and it punishes public employees if they don't check legal status.

Something I hope will soo arrive here.

Perhaps we should only allow US Citizens to drive? Everyone else - from visitors to green card holders - SOL.

According to the Bush Administration, this will also help prevent Terrorism.

We could also deport any non-US Citizen who would be caught driving and/or seeking medical treatment at a hospital or clinic who couldn't pay out of pocket.

Or we could just lock up liberals in concentration camps.

Perhaps that would help Bush too?

It's so easy being asinine.

"They get fraudulent SS cards and fraudulent green cards "off the street" which are used to gain employment here. Everyone knows it and employers deliberately do not look very closely. Medicaid is paying for most of their medical care because hospitals and clinics do not look very hard at IDs."

None of which is prevented by asking for green cards in order to get a drivers license.

Here's what I didn't explain. An actual legitimate green card is very difficult to counterfit. There are all sorts of built-in security devices such as holograms and micro-printing built into the plastic, just like the new $20 bills. They are even more sophisticated than typical driver's licenses. So if you are a DMV employee you can easily spot counterfeit green cards if they lack the proper security details. It would be easier to fake a bith certificate than a green card.

Employeers who knowingly hire illegals, on the other hand, will squint at anything held in front of their face and will say, OK. In addition, I don't think you need a green card to get hired anyway, you just need a social security card which is unbelievably easy to counterfeit for anyone who has a laser printer and heavy card stock. You need a green card to LEGALLY get a social security card. And when you go to the social security office they definitely will verify your immigration status with INS before mailing you the card.

The point about all of this is that there really isn't any official ID that anyone is required to or needs to carry in this country. You need ID to travel internationally and some sort of ID to travel by air. But generally you don't need any ID. so driver's licenses have filled the void.

You can't board a United flight from Logan to LAX with a bus pass.

(Golly gee, I hope I'm onto something.)

"So if you are a DMV employee you can easily spot counterfeit green cards if they lack the proper security details. "

Even if true, the result is that people don't have a drivers license. They can still get medicaid, a job etc. They just can't drive legally and taking away the right to drive legally makes no sense.

Sure it does. Without connection to this country, through legal forms of identification, there is nothing stopping them from just hopping the border if, for instance, they drive drunk and kill a pedestrian or bicyclist. Green card holders generally are sponsored by somebody, either a relative, spouse, or employer, who presumably can be held accountable and at least be questioned by authorities as to the whereabouts of the person in question.

If we were so concerned about drivers' licenses, why aren't the Democrats in California acceding to Governor Schwarzenegger's requests for a differently colored drivers' license? Allegedly they are scared of being disciminated against when they are stopped by police. Well, they should be, because they are not here legally, and the police need to enforce the laws and realize that, yes, illegal immigrants have a little less of the ties that bind us to a certain community and are more likely to be less inhibited in commiting a crime, or more likely to flee once they do. Look at all the police officers killed in the US by illegal immigrants who are now in Mexico openly mocking the system by demanding to be tried under Mexican law. Some of whom, by the way, were killed in traffic stops.

"Green card holders generally are sponsored by somebody, either a relative, spouse, or employer, who presumably can be held accountable and at least be questioned by authorities as to the whereabouts of the person in question."

I don't think that is true. A green card is just a kind of visa. No sponsor, spouse, employer etc required.

"there is nothing stopping them from just hopping the border if, for instance, they drive drunk and kill a pedestrian or bicyclist."

And their not having a drivers license won't change this.

"Allegedly they are scared of being disciminated against when they are stopped by police. Well, they should be,"

I think this is the heart of the question. Is it in our interest to say to people who are working without proper papers that they have no legal protection in any other aspect of their lives? Or, like immunizations help keep us all healthy, does having laws that protect everyone also benefit all of us even those who occasionally disobey them.

"Look at all the police officers killed in the US by illegal immigrants who are now in Mexico openly mocking the system"

I looked. I didn't find any.

I don't think that is true. A green card is just a kind of visa. No sponsor, spouse, employer etc required.

Most legal immigrants are sponsored by somebody. The only ones that aren't fall under the "diversity lottery", which generally are African and South American individuals from countries that have few immigrants to the US. After all, the feds don't want someone in this country who will just end up being a burden to taxpayers. Even refugees generally have a relative or other person willing to vouch for their status already in this country.

"Allegedly they are scared of being disciminated against when they are stopped by police. Well, they should be,"

I think this is the heart of the question. Is it in our interest to say to people who are working without proper papers that they have no legal protection in any other aspect of their lives? Or, like immunizations help keep us all healthy, does having laws that protect everyone also benefit all of us even those who occasionally disobey them.

Well, they get due process, and general human rights. We shouldn't torture illegal immigrants, and we should ensure that communicable diseases don't spread in that community. Driving is a privilege, not a right. People have two feet and they can walk if they are here illegally. You have the right to travel freely, but not necesasarily in the mode of your choice.

David March, killed by an illegal immigrant gang member in a traffic stop

Donald Young, killed by a undocumented worker

Wow... very interesting stuff here. I wish I would have seen this article earlier. Does anyone have any comments based on recent news or events since August?

I have a lot to say about the subject, but I wont since I think it would be useless to express my self considering your shallow mentality and belief, that we the illegal community do not have rights in this country.

And just so you know Mr. Williams, we too(the latino community) are ashamed of the latin criminals and think they should be sent back and punished, Instead of making a bad image for the rest of us who want to work and better ourselves, not wanting to give you another excuse to discriminate against us.

on another subject:

For anyone who posted a well thought comment, I just want to thank you for taking the time to rationalize the true essence of this issue and understand a real temp. solution, unlike the other narrow minded people just posting a comment with no real thought into the issue.

Oh! almost forgot!:

-Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber

-Timothy James McVeigh, was an American terrorist
responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing. The bombing, which claimed 168 lives.

Abraham, I thought carefully before allowing your comment to be published, as it contains personally directed remarks that we generally don't allow.

However, you have strong feelings and a strong perspective, so I let it go through. In the future please keep your comments focused on policies and issues, not individuals.

Thanks.

Kent Linn in his earlier comments has nailed the need for the State of Oregon to require and validate SS numbers and do an extensive validation of identification before issuing a drivers license.

I've just been staying at home not getting anything done. I guess it doesn't bother me. Shrug. I haven't been up to anything. I haven't gotten much done today.

Two comments:

1. A drivers license is widely considered a form of identification; therefore before legal state issued identification is issued, one should be able to validate their identity. No papers, no identity, no license.

2. Even if we make a move to separating out identification from a driver's license (or heck, a social security card as well, since many companies equate a SSN as identity, and its legality is questionable but permitted) - a drivers license does require you to follow the laws of the road, including obtaining liability insurance and proving financial responsibility. Therefore it is inherent that such be able to be proved - the last thing I want to do is get in a wreck with someone who might have a license, but is otherwise residing illegally in the country - and has no financial responsibility. They probably can't get insurance; and if I sue them either they can't be tracked to be held accountable, or the ICE will catch up with them and deport them. My option: a very expensive court trial to try and seize their U.S. assets, which is very unlikely (and they are probably hidden or under other assumed names).

Since an illegal resident has no concern for the law, what is to say they won't reenter the country illegally? Anyone can read the reports that show that many do enter and re-enter numerous times.

Operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a right. The use of the roads, as public property, is a right - but the individual methods by which one uses the road are individual privileges. And rights are not guaranteed nor inferred to those who enter/remain in the country illegally, so for that "class" of person, there are no such "rights" - including the right to access public property, travel, use roads, or most importantly drive.

For those who follow the rules, enter the country legally and follow the terms of their visa - they are entitled to those rights as visitors of the country until the time their visa expires - and of course if granted permanent residency status or if they gain citizenship, their rights are guaranteed permanently to the same extent as any other U.S. citizen. (I.e. don't become incarcerated for the offense of a crime. I, as a natural-born U.S. citizen, born to natural-born U.S. citizens, each born to natural-born U.S. citizens, can just as well lose my rights - including to travel - if I commit a crime.)

a drivers license does require you to follow the laws of the road, including obtaining liability insurance and proving financial responsibility. Therefore it is inherent that such be able to be proved - the last thing I want to do is get in a wreck with someone who might have a license, but is otherwise residing illegally in the country - and has no financial responsibility. They probably can't get insurance;

They not only can they, but they almost always do. They want no trouble with the law and if they are stopped for speeding they want to be able to show they are insured. Moreover, they want their vehicle insured for the same reasons you do. And it is the vehicle owner, not the driver, who is responsible for insuring it.

heck, a social security card as well, since many companies equate a SSN as identity, and its legality is questionable but permitted

No it isn't. See form I-9. If your employers didn't have you sign one then they hired you illegally. A social security card can only be used in conjunction with other identification to show you are employable.

The larger concern about issuing drivers licenses to illegal aliens (no matter what country they are from) is that such an identification will become another component toward allowing such people to eventually vote. A negative scenario is that a sizeable group of like-minded and similarly "documented" people could begin to influence laws and policy in certain remote and forgotten communities: Like LA, for example.

Doesn't the US recognize international drivers licenses? We really ought to know where folks are from and what they're doin' here. I've never had a tremnedous amount of confidence in the honesty of the average American citizen--so economically desperate foreigners would arouse even more concern, methinks.

Kent, keep it up. I bet a lot of those advocating a lax policy towards undocumented immigrants would change their tune if they were directly impacted in an adverse way. It is a sad truth that American subcultural groups have an inadequate understanding of others. Social conservatives in the US now are routinely labeled as "bigots" and "racist" for their stands on limiting immigration. If they (liberals) only knew of the huge number of voluntary projects, staffed by American religious and philanthropic groups, currently underway to improve life in developing countries they might soften their rhetoric. Or is that wishful thinking?

No it isn't. See form I-9. If your employers didn't have you sign one then they hired you illegally. A social security card can only be used in conjunction with other identification to show you are employable.

Who said I was talking strictly about employment?

Most credit applications require a SSN. That includes applying for utility service (i.e. electric, water/sewer, telephone) Also required for most financial matters. To buy a pre-paid cell phone, you must have a SSN.

The larger concern about issuing drivers licenses to illegal aliens (no matter what country they are from) is that such an identification will become another component toward allowing such people to eventually vote.

And how is that different than providing a driver's licenses to any immigrant, regardless of their immigration status?

We really ought to know where folks are from and what they're doin' here.

Perhaps make immigrants wear a star of David on their clothes or tatoos ...

One of my big things is that my city,state, country does not bend over backwards to make things easy for people lacking identifying proof of who they are and what their residential status is. If it is the case that most of the other citys, states, and countries in the "free" western world are allowing ANYONE with nothing more than minimal identification from their place of origin and perhaps a few utility bills to support their claim to living in a particular place currently to get things like drivers license and everything that one can then get WITH that license actually are lax to the level all these folks in favor of of people being allowed to here then I want to know! If that is really the case it will go a long way to convincing me (and I am sure many more "on the fence" types like me to join in supporting access to drivers license without ANY consideration of whether or not a person is here legally or not. For one thing it would be ridiculous to waste our resources trying to block something inevitable (i.e people having difficulty would simply go to a neighboring country to obtain license there and THEN come to my country/state and whip that on anyone troubling them for a license. So please if the situation exists, then collect and post or just direct me to a web site posting a comprehesive list of countries, and states where someone there illegally or even someone unwilling to for any reason to show proof of legal residence? I was asked for registered birth certificate, Social Security card and finger print which trust me I NEVER WANT to provide ANY of unless there is absolutely no practical recourse! I want to be fair and I certainly don't want to support us being a lone or in the minority "police state"! But I also HATE the idea of happily submitting to the idea that my country and or state should be of the minority percentage of similar countries who alone against majority thinking should forever be an oasis for people of ANY country that wish to improve their situation by immigrating ILLEGALLY! ...And, please I understand fully the argument that simply says over and over WHY? this and Why? that because that is not addressing the concern I have stated before ... EVEN if it might be seen by some as "lacking reasonable cause" or whatever for a country or to demand whatever level of proof to help insure that licensed drivers are here legally and who are who they say are rather than simply making sure that "they can drive safely" I can never begin to buy into that at the cost of making my home country/state a lone or one of a small number that make ourself to be one of the only places dumb enough to take pretty much dumb enough to take WAY MORE "needy and unplanned for immigrants" along with the innevitable PERCENTAGE of criminals and other types who bring NOTHING to the table but financial and other burden with them (PLEASE do not misconstrue that statement to in any way suggest that I see the entire lot any particular group of would be immigrants to be such ... I am just PLAINLY stating the FACT that in any country where a lot of people want to leave from, the crowd wanting to leave will ALWAYS include some highly undesrirable types and so come on!---OBVIOUSLY! the most highly sought destinations for this small percenatge of undesireables is always going to be the places that ask for the least insofar as Identity, residency and so on ... they are typically who loves and might benefit most from lax ID requirements ... hey the easier it is to get one drivers license and all that can be had with that, then the easier it is also to get 2 or 5 or 10 MORE DLs! And the more IDs, the more crap one can pull duuhhh! We all recall when Castro emptied his prisons on our shores, just LOVING the knowlege that he was going to save a bundle on warehousing them and at the same time loving the heavy finiancial burden that would result by these criminal's expert activities ... not to mention the murders, rapes and mayhem to the American public.All of which did nothing but lower the opinion of Cubans in general by the average person too ignorant to realize WHY there was so much crime attributed to Cubans! The same sort of things happens to a lesser degree when for example All Mexican immigrant's, legal or illegal get their reputation tarnished as a whole simply because the US is an easy destination for Mexican criminals to immigrate to and to flee to or even lay low in for a while if they are in a "one more time and we throw away the key" situation in Mexico ...another DUHHH, and the EASIER we make it for those then the MORE people will see mexican immigrants committing alarmingly high percentanges of crime in areas with high numbers of mexican immigrants (like California for example) So please, if you want to get my support for the drivers license thing then I have to SEE with my own eyes that we are truly being overly restrictive compared to the rest. Until then and even still IF then I believe strongly that the US needs to pull our heads out of our @$$ and ONLY make laws that we want to enforce! And whenever we want or need more immigrants, then we need legitimate LEGAL ways to let that happen ...and fair ways to make that happen too I might add. For instance, it sure does not seem fair to simply allow Mexico more immigrants that all the other countries (some of which are SO MUCH poorer than Mexico!) And business wise in the interests of the US tax payer we ought to dang negotiate some real concessions from countries of origin in return for the raw influx of US CASH to said country that ALWAYS occurs when they have a large population working here. For example, there ought always to exist treaties that say that whatever rights and privleges OUR country extends to yours then you MUST extend at least the same to us! IE we allow Mexicans to buy property here, then Mexico MUST allow US citizens to buy Mexican property. If we allow the children born to immigrants here to have an automatic claim citizenship then Mexico MUST do likewise (FOR equal number of IMMIGRANTS from any country but for ALL US immigrants up to that number) if not then we don't either. And how about, if Mexico refuses to allow extradition on a US murder charge due to their "conscience over the death penalty, then they at least MUST extradite if we sign off on "no death penalty for the charge extradited on" and perhaps an ongoing swap program to trade incarerated nationals based on the years they are convicted on. I have no love for criminals mexican or US but I would feel better having judicial review for Amercians conviced elsewhere and to prevent if it is occuring possible mal treatment of our citizens and to make a prisnor more accessible to relatives and so on that may their only hope for truning their life around. The sort of things mentioned above are DUUHHH! Tit for tat we all win anyway, so why the heck not? (I realize that for example a prisnor exchange would take federal laws to accomodate preservation of rights for those who are swapped... but that could be a stroke of the pen as they say, if it is simply required for a US citizen to "sign off" on their rights if they want to be eligible for a swap... nothing is violated if they aggree first hand to being at the mercy of an appointed Federal Board with sole descression as to their take on the Mexican conviciton and aggrees to submit without the right of appealing decisions based on any percieved constitutional violation that may have occured in Mexico ... I'd say yeah they can appeal all they want and produce whatever new evidence they can find etc, BUT nothing can force the board's hand as opposed to had they been convicted here. I would assume Mexico would do similarly but to that I say "it's their citizen, they can do with as their legal system feels is fit... just please try to keep them from immigrating HERE again and we'll do likewise with our trades by issuing them passports with message "Void for travel to Mexico without Mexico first being sent reminder of previous conviciton and swap and having a visa issued IN SPITE of that" With both countries aggreeing to that courtisy as part of treatie it could prevent many idiots with axes to grind or what have you from returning easily to a country they are unwelcome in. You know? Good Neighbor stuff, tit for tat kind of in everyones best intrest things.